Is Impact* the best wrestling promotion in history? *(Now TNA again, 2024)

[El-P]

On 3/14/2019 at 9:29 AM, El-P said:

(and really, did Eli actually refused as a shoot ? Who does he think he is ? Disco Inferno ? It's really odd in 2019)

Funny for me to say, since it appears Disco is gonna do the job to Scarlett Bordeaux pretty soon. Also, I don't think it was a coincidence that a bunch of male chauvinist pigs got slapped around by women on the March 8 broadcast. The nice thing is that they didn't hammer you over the head with it (like, you know, some would have done), it was just a nice little touch I thought.

Ethan Page is a guy I enjoy more and more, his work is really solid and his shape is a nice change from all the super small guys like the Rascals or Ace Austin doing twirls around the ropes and such. 

[Mad Dog]

The Mania weekend show will mark the first time since 2006 that I will buy an Impact show. That card looks really fun. 

[SomethingSavage]

On 3/16/2019 at 11:08 AM, El-P said:

Funny for me to say, since it appears Disco is gonna do the job to Scarlett Bordeaux pretty soon. Also, I don't think it was a coincidence that a bunch of male chauvinist pigs got slapped around by women on the March 8 broadcast. The nice thing is that they didn't hammer you over the head with it (like, you know, some would have done), it was just a nice little touch I thought.

Ethan Page is a guy I enjoy more and more, his work is really solid and his shape is a nice change from all the super small guys like the Rascals or Ace Austin doing twirls around the ropes and such. 

Ethan Page is a guy I really started to like in PWG. That's an environment where it's easy to overboard with the crowd interactions & whatnot, but I thought he really shined with his taunts. Dude was busting out some smooth, well-timed heel tactics.

I'm not following ANY weekly wrestling shows at the moment, but if I were - Impact would be number one with a bullet.

Even so, I will definitely be going back and catching all their shows retroactively at some point. I just don't have the time with my schedule right now. But it should be fun to do a binge watch at some stage in the future & enjoy this little period that is totally going unrecognized & underappreciated by a large section of the fandom.

[NintendoLogic]

I've never had much interest in Eli Drake, but good on him for taking a stand against that nonsense. Intergender matches have to be the worst trend in wrestling this decade, and think of the ground that covers.

[TheDuke]

I recently saw Eli Drake at a local indy show a few weeks ago and really enjoyed him. He won the title and then lost it in a nearby city the next night, but it was a fun match

[The Thread Killer]

7 hours ago, SomethingSavage said:

I'm not following ANY weekly wrestling shows at the moment, but if I were - Impact would be number one with a bullet.

Even so, I will definitely be going back and catching all their shows retroactively at some point. I just don't have the time with my schedule right now. But it should be fun to do a binge watch at some stage in the future & enjoy this little period that is totally going unrecognized & underappreciated by a large section of the fandom.

The problem is, even though they changed the name and have new ownership and management, Impact still have the residual stink of Dixie Carter and TNA on them with most hardcore fans, and I don't know if they'll ever get away from it.  You still see fans online basically saying "LOLTNA" whenever anything is reported about or announced by Impact, and it's a damn shame. If you take the Impact roster right now and put on the shows they have been for the past 6-9 months, but they were a brand new start up without the whole sordid TNA history, I'd be willing to bet most fans watching with an unbiased eye would be praising them.

[Mrzfn]

18 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

I've never had much interest in Eli Drake, but good on him for taking a stand against that nonsense. Intergender matches have to be the worst trend in wrestling this decade, and think of the ground that covers.

I get this take, but I also disagree so vehemently it's hard to articulate. Like, if it makes somebody uncomfortable for personal reasons or they've been exposed to it being done really badly that's one thing, but I've seen so many brilliant intergender matches this decade it's hard for me to wrap my mind around someone being categorically against them.

[fakeplastictrees]

19 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

The problem is, even though they changed the name and have new ownership and management, Impact still have the residual stink of Dixie Carter and TNA on them with most hardcore fans, and I don't know if they'll ever get away from it.  You still see fans online basically saying "LOLTNA" whenever anything is reported about or announced by Impact, and it's a damn shame. If you take the Impact roster right now and put on the shows they have been for the past 6-9 months, but they were a brand new start up without the whole sordid TNA history, I'd be willing to bet most fans watching with an unbiased eye would be praising them.

And that is the million dollar question. How does a company with a banging roster (Tessa Blanchard, LAX, OvE, Rich Swann, Johnny Impact, Brian Cage, Willie Mack, The Lucha Bros, etc.), good matches, and overall solid booking overcome past transgressions? Impact is really a backwards company as for years they stayed in business despite producing absolute crap and now that the last few years has been pretty good, everyone on the roster and behind the scenes are still paying for the transgressions of Vince Russo, Carter, and others. It's both fascinating and sad to see happen.

Impact and MLW are both enjoyable shows for me as the production issues in both add personality to the broadcast. I am not one of these people that believe every shot should be perfect. Don't tell me a match is chaotic and all hell is breaking loose while the director is able to easily capture everything while ensuring its all nicely framed. Yes, both can and should dump some money into the product to approve the lacking aesthetics.

[The Thread Killer]

2 minutes ago, fakeplastictrees said:

Impact and MLW are both enjoyable shows for me as the production issues in both add personality to the broadcast. I am not one of these people that believe every shot should be perfect. Don't tell me a match is chaotic and all hell is breaking loose while the director is able to easily capture everything while ensuring its all nicely framed.

Agreed.  And I'll take MLW and Impact's production style and camera work in a heartbeat over the ridiculous nonsense you see during WWE productions.  The constant camera angle switches, the pointless zooming and shaking...it's like all their cameramen are first year TV production students playing with their new equipment and experimenting how many different ways they can frame a shot in 60 seconds.  I'm half-ass expecting them to break out a kaleidoscope lens any day now.  It's so distracting from the actual action.

[Tim Evans]

22 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

The problem is, even though they changed the name and have new ownership and management, Impact still have the residual stink of Dixie Carter and TNA on them with most hardcore fans, and I don't know if they'll ever get away from it.  You still see fans online basically saying "LOLTNA" whenever anything is reported about or announced by Impact, and it's a damn shame. If you take the Impact roster right now and put on the shows they have been for the past 6-9 months, but they were a brand new start up without the whole sordid TNA history, I'd be willing to bet most fans watching with an unbiased eye would be praising them.

I like Impact but they can change the roster and name but it still looks and feels like TNA. The announcing, the dead crowds, just the way it's filmed feels like it hasn't changed much since the Hogan days. They also still embrace the TNA history so things aren't going to change.

[NintendoLogic]

On 3/19/2019 at 2:34 PM, Mrzfn said:

I get this take, but I also disagree so vehemently it's hard to articulate. Like, if it makes somebody uncomfortable for personal reasons or they've been exposed to it being done really badly that's one thing, but I've seen so many brilliant intergender matches this decade it's hard for me to wrap my mind around someone being categorically against them.

You can put me in the "uncomfortable for personal reasons" category. A man beating up a woman isn't something I can find entertaining under any circumstances. Plus, a woman having a competitive match with a man makes a complete mockery of any pretense of realism and destroys my suspension of disbelief. It's like deathmatch wrestling. It doesn't matter to me how well-worked it is because it's too inherently offensive to my sensibilities to derive any enjoyment from.

[WingedEagle]

18 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

You can put me in the "uncomfortable for personal reasons" category. A man beating up a woman isn't something I can find entertaining under any circumstances. Plus, a woman having a competitive match with a man makes a complete mockery of any pretense of realism and destroys my suspension of disbelief. It's like deathmatch wrestling. It doesn't matter to me how well-worked it is because it's too inherently offensive to my sensibilities to derive any enjoyment from.

This is me 99% of the time, to the point that I usually avoid intergender altogether.  But then something like the recent Fight Club Pro show in Tokyo catches my eye with Meiko Satomura and Akira Tozawa returning to Japan in the same tag match.  I had to watch that and loved it.  Can't justify it, but somehow it didn't leave me feeling like a criminal at point.

[sek69]

I wonder, does Rey having competitve matches make a mockery of the pretense of realism and destroy the suspension of disbelief? The size difference in like 90% of his matches is greater than most intergender matches, and if we're being honest him having a competitve match with most WWE sized guys is visually ridiculous if you spend more than 2 seconds thinking about it. 

 

[El-P]

Realism and pro-wrestling have nothing to do with each other. Nothing in pro-wrestling is realistic, unless you go for the most hardcore shoot-style stuff of the late 90's (the best Tamura stuff against guys like Khosaka, not Volk Han of course). Once you accept a woman's body is equal to a man's body and the only criteria is the size and what goes along in the realm of pro-wrestling, you're absolutely fine. 

15 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I wonder, does Rey having competitve matches make a mockery of the pretense of realism and destroy the suspension of disbelief? The size difference in like 90% of his matches is greater than most intergender matches, and if we're being honest him having a competitve match with most WWE sized guys is visually ridiculous if you spend more than 2 seconds thinking about it. 

This. Especially with so many small guys (and I mean *small*) today working super fast lucha style flying. I can *realistically* believe Tessa Blanchard could beat up Sami Guevarra for instance.

[Mad Dog]

It worked okay with Sara Del Rey in Chikara back in the day. But she's built like a tank and a lot of their roster is smaller. It hasn't worked as well for them since.

[SomethingSavage]

It's all about the sales pitch. As with most things, it comes down to how it's presented. I could be swayed either way on the subject of intergender wrestling & how receptive I am to the idea.

Even so, with that being said, Steve Austin ain't never wrestle no lady. Bret Hart ain't never wrestle no lady. Hulk Hogan ain't never wrestle no lady.

Top guys - at least traditional top guys, who were strategic and smart and careful in how they were presented & promoted - would never work a program or a competitive match with a woman. Sorry if that offends anyone, but it's straight truth.

And I know Eli Drake isn't a top guy by any means. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't aspire to be one. And if he hopes to ever see himself in a super valuable spot, then yeah. I won't fault him for caring about how he's used.

[sek69]

Women's wrestling as a whole was not seen on a level anywhere close to the men from practically the beginning of time until about a few years ago, so guys like Austin or Bret would never have been in a position to wrestle no ladies even if they wanted to. 

I agree it is about presentation though. I agree that it would be difficult for 90s WWF Barbie doll fitness models to come across as competitve against men (hell, a lot of them had a hard time looking competitve against each other), but so many women around now are much better on a athletic/training/coordination standpoint. I don't have a hard time believing Tessa Blanchard (to use an example mentioned before) could kick a lot of the men's asses. 

 

[funkdoc]

wrestling is basically a video game to most modern fans, and we all know about the history of intergender fighting in that realm

plus with heavy weightlifting becoming more and more popular with women thanks to crossfit and the like, people are getting more used to the idea of women who can lift your average male wrestler

[NintendoLogic]

10 hours ago, sek69 said:

I wonder, does Rey having competitve matches make a mockery of the pretense of realism and destroy the suspension of disbelief? The size difference in like 90% of his matches is greater than most intergender matches, and if we're being honest him having a competitve match with most WWE sized guys is visually ridiculous if you spend more than 2 seconds thinking about it.

To be honest, I do find Rey working competitively against the likes of Kane and Mark Henry to be absurd on a certain level. He makes it work because he's a once-in-a-lifetime athletic marvel. Being juiced to the gills also helps. There are few, if any, women who are anywhere close to him technically or athletically.

10 hours ago, El-P said:

Realism and pro-wrestling have nothing to do with each other. Nothing in pro-wrestling is realistic, unless you go for the most hardcore shoot-style stuff of the late 90's (the best Tamura stuff against guys like Khosaka, not Volk Han of course). Once you accept a woman's body is equal to a man's body and the only criteria is the size and what goes along in the realm of pro-wrestling, you're absolutely fine.

That's precisely it. Women's bodies aren't equal to men's bodies for the purpose of competing in combat sports. Even when a man and woman are the same height and weight, the man is going to have more muscle mass and denser bone structure than the woman if he's any kind of athlete.

6 hours ago, funkdoc said:

wrestling is basically a video game to most modern fans, and we all know about the history of intergender fighting in that realm

Therein lies the problem. Pro wrestling isn't a comic book or a video game. It's a simulated athletic contest. It has fantastic and theatrical elements, but it has to be grounded in realism or else you get shit like Bray Wyatt projecting maggots onto the mat. The fact that we're having this discussion is another indication of how nerd culture has cannibalized every aspect of American popular culture.

[sek69]

The thing is it's hard to have a discussion about being grounded in realism when the Irish Whip has existed since the 30s. Can't blame nerd culture for that. Nearly all basic pro wrestling moves are completely unrealistic in an actual athletic contest but we just accept it because they've been part of the genre for nearly a century.  Wrestling has always been a live action comic book, from the written stories (that both tend to be great or go off the rails and get retconned) to the colorful wacky characters. Heroes and Villians, complete with bad guys monologging about their evil plans. 

 

[El-P]

3 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

That's precisely it. Women's bodies aren't equal to men's bodies for the purpose of competing in combat sports. Even when a man and woman are the same height and weight, the man is going to have more muscle mass and denser bone structure than the woman if he's any kind of athlete.

Pro-wrestling isn't a combat sport. It's a fiction.

3 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Therein lies the problem. Pro wrestling isn't a comic book or a video game. It's a simulated athletic contest. It has fantastic and theatrical elements, but it has to be grounded in realism or else you get shit like Bray Wyatt projecting maggots onto the mat. The fact that we're having this discussion is another indication of how nerd culture has cannibalized every aspect of American popular culture.

Was Hulk Hogan, Sting or Dusty Rhodes more comic book or simulated athletic contest ? Jim Cornette working comedy spots with the referee was a simulated athletic contest ? Jerry Lawler hiding *nothing* in his tights pretending there was a "foreign object" ? Abdullah the Butcher isn't comic book material ? The Undertaker anyone ? John Cena and his Five Knuckle Shuffle and fist bump that wouldn't hurt a fly ? Should I go on ?

[aaeo_]

The two boxing gyms and the Gracie dojo I've trained at all had women sparring/rolling with men somewhat regularly. To me, intergender matches isn't something that outlandish within pro wrestling because of that, even if it'd be hideous to have a man go 100% while fighting a woman.

Pro wrestling is definitely a combat sport though.

[DMJ]

16 hours ago, SomethingSavage said:

It's all about the sales pitch. As with most things, it comes down to how it's presented.

^ This is the right answer. 

Chyna, in her heel persona, wouldn't have been out of place beating Barry Horowitz with a low blow.

As a face, at her peak of credibility, why couldn't she have been in a competitive match with someone the size of Lio Rush? To me, the Jericho and Jarrett rivalries were pushing things too far but I also give credit to those guys - they were smartly worked matches if not my cup of tea. For example, I don't recall Chyna's intergender matches starting with trading holds and whatnot. IIRC, they'd typically begin with the heel either mocking Chyna or refusing to take her seriously because of her gender and then getting slapped or otherwise shown that Chyna means business. This would now make the heel lose their temper and throw a wild haymaker, which Chyna would duck, and counter with a back suplex or something. Basically, she'd outsmart (not necessarily outwrestle) the heel in the early going for the shine, the heel would cut her off and dominate for awhile, and the finish would be her making a comeback - usually because the heel was back to underestimating/mocking her. I mean, its really no different than any of the countless female valet/male manager matches from the 80s and early 90s (I think Missy Hyatt had a few like this). 

What I don't like, and what I see often on the indies, is that the talents are so eager to do something new and not stick to that formula that they end up making these intergender matches silly and overly choreographed. Look up Gargano/LeRae from Smash Wrestling for an example of what I'm talking about. The video begins with a recap from a previous match that started with LeRae eating a vicious Biff Busick uppercut. I mean, we're supposed to be believe that if an Average Joe got hit with that straight to the mouth, they'd be incapacitated, right? Like, if he hit me with that move, I'd lose some teeth and need to take a day off work. Instead, she recovers and ends up winning the match. 

Then, in her match against Gargano (which starts out okay but still kinda questionable), she takes an absolutely nasty face-drop onto the top turnbuckle at one point. It is an unquestionably great moment that is captured on camera really well and LeRae sells it really well. It looks like if that happened to my wife, we'd be going to the hospital. And, in the context of the match, its presented as a big spot...but not as the finish, which, in my opinion, it should be. Candice LeRae is not Nia Jax or Awesome Kong or Chyna. She's 110 pounds and got dropped face-first onto a turnbuckle from a powerbomb position and it looked like it could've decapitated her. Continuing a match from that moment on is pulling the curtain back too far.

And I know this is sexist to say, but it absolutely does have to do with her taking that move from a man. That same spot would probably not be so jarring to me if it happened in a match against Nia Jax - but in an intergender context, any time she gets hit with offense, it registers as that much more painful. 

[Mrzfn]

Definitely a case of your mileage may vary. It's not for everyone but it's great for some.

[NintendoLogic]

11 hours ago, sek69 said:

The thing is it's hard to have a discussion about being grounded in realism when the Irish Whip has existed since the 30s. Can't blame nerd culture for that. Nearly all basic pro wrestling moves are completely unrealistic in an actual athletic contest but we just accept it because they've been part of the genre for nearly a century.  Wrestling has always been a live action comic book, from the written stories (that both tend to be great or go off the rails and get retconned) to the colorful wacky characters. Heroes and Villians, complete with bad guys monologging about their evil plans.

That's not really true, though. The classic wrestling holds are mostly modified versions of catch wrestling submissions (somebody actually won an MMA fight with a Boston crab a while back). And suplexes and the like have their origins in Greco-Roman wrestling. As for the Irish whip, it was more of a judo-style takedown in its original form.

8 hours ago, El-P said:

Was Hulk Hogan, Sting or Dusty Rhodes more comic book or simulated athletic contest ? Jim Cornette working comedy spots with the referee was a simulated athletic contest ? Jerry Lawler hiding *nothing* in his tights pretending there was a "foreign object" ? Abdullah the Butcher isn't comic book material ? The Undertaker anyone ? John Cena and his Five Knuckle Shuffle and fist bump that wouldn't hurt a fly ? Should I go on ?

Obviously every aspect of pro wrestling wasn't sports-like, but the wrestlers themselves were pretty much always presented as elite athletes and genuine tough guys. Managers like Cornette don't count because their heat came from having no physical credibility. The whole idea behind Cornette's feud with Baby Doll was that he was such a sissy that he got his ass kicked by a girl. People like to say that doesn't matter anymore, but WWE's biggest stars are Brock Lesnar and Ronda Rousey. And Becky Lynch standing tall with a bloody face and a broken nose took her to new heights of popularity. And Roman Reigns was at his most over when he was the Shield's silent enforcer. Being perceived as a badass matters. It's much harder to create that perception when you go out of your way to remind everybody that it's all fake and bullshit.