Is TNA the worst wrestling promotion in history?

[El-P]

Comments like that, I'm not sure she'd be welcomed back in WWE which is a shame. She deserves to be part of the recognition the women are finally getting, she was ahead of her time in that regard in WWE.

 

Recognition on the part of whom though ? WWE ? How does it matter anyway ? It's all bullshit make-believe. If pro-wrestling fans are too lazy to just accept WWE revisionnist history, that's their issue. It doesn't take much effort to dig up the facts, which is that TNA was putting serious women's division ten years before anything happened in the WWE (and then they reverted back, because, you know, Russo and shit). The recognition shouldn't have to come from the corporate assholes of the WWE but from the historians and fans. Fact : Gail Kim was a terrific worker. She made a career choice that obviously made her happier, I say good for her. She doesn't need the approval of the fake-ass mother hen.

[The Thread Killer]

I meant Gail Kim deserved to be famous like the current WWE Women's Division but also, it's kind of sad to me that she isn't part of the current WWE scene because she would have been able to showcase her talents against a higher quality of opponent than she did during her WWE run and in TNA. And also, she would have presumably made a hell of a lot more money had she been in WWE now. Sadly, she was just a bit ahead of her time.

[El-P]

Sadly, she was just a bit ahead of her time.

 

No. WWE was way behind the times.

 

And really, I went through the whole Gail vs Kong series from 2008 recently, I haven't seen one WWE women match in the last year that was even close to those matches (and I've been a big fan of the women's division).

 

More money ? Money don't buy you happiness. I think Gail has made quite a good life for herself, plus she retired on her own terms. She really doesn't need the WWE stamp of approval. I respect anyone who says "fuck off" to that company, especially in the current context of monopoly (let's be honest, TNA was a glorified indy in the last few years).

[NotJayTabb]

Isn't Gail married to some TV chef anyway, so I'm sure she's not living on the bread line. I'm sure she's pretty happy to have retired healthy on her own terms, and is still able to contribute to the business.

 

Agree about the Kim/Kong matches. They totally hold up, they managed to make Kong stay looking like a monster, whilst Kim still got to look convincing as a babyface ace whose offence was hurting Kong.

[SomethingSavage]

Gail has lit it up every single time she's been with TNA. Her first run with AMW and Planet Jarrett was super fun. She was mainly just running interference - basically everything they've got Vega doing for Almas at the moment - but she always contributed to whatever match she was involved with.

 

Later came the Kong stuff, which yeah. Definitely holds up.

 

Even later with her 2011 return, she was working good matches month to month with a wide variety of opponents - everyone from Mickie and Tara/Victoria to even Madison Rayne. In short? Gail's great.

 

And yeah. She's settled down with Robert Irvine, who is a globetrotting celebrity chef. The guy's always popping up in bodybuilding mags, sites, articles, etc. He's got his own line of supplements (which isn't necessarily saying much), but his protein bars are among the highest rated in the industry. They're legit & pretty fucking delicious. Like, I'm not saying she married the guy for the tasty protein bars, but I'm not saying she didn't.

[El-P]

Gail has lit it up every single time she's been with TNA. Her first run with AMW and Planet Jarrett was super fun. She was mainly just running interference - basically everything they've got Vega doing for Almas at the moment - but she always contributed to whatever match she was involved with.

 

Yes, that's overlooked because people just don't to give Jarrett era TNA any credit, but Gail was a terrific valet in the spirit of Sherri, with modern spots worked in.

 

Gail's great.

 

Honestly, yeah, I haven't seen her in any role where she wasn't at least very good yet.

[SomethingSavage]

Planet Jarrett was one of those things that was terrible in its time, but it actually holds up better in hindsight. It was hurt by a few factors - namely Jarrett being so closely associated with the stigma of dying days WCW, but also by wrestling fans being sick to death of tyranical heel reigns on top. They were getting it simultaneously with both Jeff and Hunter at that point.

 

But, looking back, there were alot of instances where Double J was definitely doing WWE main event style matches better than Triple H. When Hunter occasionally got it right, he nailed it. But when he did the try-hard routine too often, it came across REALLY badly. Jarrett at least kept his matches shorter. They were still overbooked, bloated, frenzied fights packed full of plunder. But they were almost always fun and easier to absorb.

 

I could still see people shitting on the finishes - almost always reverting back to a Jarrett win, naturally - but even that feeling of disappointment has eroded away over time. Looking back, I find alot of his matches from that time period to be really enjoyable. Should Monty Brown been made champ or whatever? I mean, sure. But damn if Jarrett/Christian wasn't a fucking blast, with Christian coming in and deflecting every attempt at interference from AMW and Gail en route to capturing the belt.

 

There's plenty more, too. Jarrett/Rhyno brawls, the Jarrett/Styles exchanging of the belt, the Jarrett/Raven series - all of these featured some fun dog & pony show main events that threw everything out there and exhausted almost every trick in the book.

 

None of that stuff is winning MOTY honors (or even MOTN on some of those cards), but I still believe they hold up better than you'd imagine. The Planet Jarrett stuff is certainly better than the reputation it tends to carry.

[Laz]

The Planet Jarrett stuff gets shit on because that was the fourth time in the 3-4 year history of TNA that Jarrett was on top as a dominant heel. AMW's heel run was awesome.

[El-P]

I could still see people shitting on the finishes - almost always reverting back to a Jarrett win, naturally - but even that feeling of disappointment has eroded away over time. Looking back, I find alot of his matches from that time period to be really enjoyable. Should Monty Brown been made champ or whatever? I mean, sure. But damn if Jarrett/Christian wasn't a fucking blast, with Christian coming in and deflecting every attempt at interference from AMW and Gail en route to capturing the belt.

 

There's plenty more, too. Jarrett/Rhyno brawls, the Jarrett/Styles exchanging of the belt, the Jarrett/Raven series - all of these featured some fun dog & pony show main events that threw everything out there and exhausted almost every trick in the book.

 

None of that stuff is winning MOTY honors (or even MOTN on some of those cards), but I still believe they hold up better than you'd imagine. The Planet Jarrett stuff is certainly better than the reputation it tends to carry.

 

Going through this years after the fact, I grew a fondness for what I ended up calling Double J Specials. Once you get the point that the gimmick is gonna be a hundred runs-in and will end up with one, or several, guitar shots, it actually is fun to watch because it also lacks the pretentiousness of the WWE main events of the time (those overlong pseudo-epic by Trips & others). Yes, it was goofy as hell, but as a fan of the old Dog & Pony Show by Raven, those matches could be plenty fun when Jarrett was working hard. And I got a kick out of trying to guess when the lethal guitar shot was actually going to happen.

 

I actually look forward to Jarrett's comeback in late 2008 now. Maybe I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but I always heard good things about the stuff against Angle (funny thing how real life was involved there too).

 

That being said, it seems like every time TNA delivers a classic (Angle vs AJ at Hard Justice), Russo gets annoyed and tries to book the worst stuff possible. So instead of letting the issue rest, the two weeks of TV following the big PPV match had Angle vs AJ in gimmick matches. Classic Russo dumbfuck booking (sadly, it's the entire card that gets really poor booking at this point too, is August 2008 the beginning of the end of what was a pretty damn good year for TNA ? With Gail and soon Christian leaving, it has to be a pretty severe blow.)

[Mad Dog]

The Planet Jarrett stuff also had a payoff unlike the HHH stuff. You get to Bound For Glory, Sting no sells the guitar and beats him. That's it for Jarrett the main eventer. The last shot of him is him dejected in the corner as Sting celebrates. It was actually a really satisfying end to his run.

[With Coil]

I love that shot of Jarrett sat in the corner looking up at Sting with the belt as the crowd is going mad. Jarrett really sold it well. I'm sure most people who complain about Jeff have never seen a lot of his work. These are probably the people who remember a lot of HHH's though.

[SomethingSavage]

 

I could still see people shitting on the finishes - almost always reverting back to a Jarrett win, naturally - but even that feeling of disappointment has eroded away over time. Looking back, I find alot of his matches from that time period to be really enjoyable. Should Monty Brown been made champ or whatever? I mean, sure. But damn if Jarrett/Christian wasn't a fucking blast, with Christian coming in and deflecting every attempt at interference from AMW and Gail en route to capturing the belt.

There's plenty more, too. Jarrett/Rhyno brawls, the Jarrett/Styles exchanging of the belt, the Jarrett/Raven series - all of these featured some fun dog & pony show main events that threw everything out there and exhausted almost every trick in the book.

None of that stuff is winning MOTY honors (or even MOTN on some of those cards), but I still believe they hold up better than you'd imagine. The Planet Jarrett stuff is certainly better than the reputation it tends to carry.

 

Going through this years after the fact, I grew a fondness for what I ended up calling Double J Specials. Once you get the point that the gimmick is gonna be a hundred runs-in and will end up with one, or several, guitar shots, it actually is fun to watch because it also lacks the pretentiousness of the WWE main events of the time (those overlong pseudo-epic by Trips & others). Yes, it was goofy as hell, but as a fan of the old Dog & Pony Show by Raven, those matches could be plenty fun when Jarrett was working hard. And I got a kick out of trying to guess when the lethal guitar shot was actually going to happen.

 

I actually look forward to Jarrett's comeback in late 2008 now. Maybe I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but I always heard good things about the stuff against Angle (funny thing how real life was involved there too).

 

That being said, it seems like every time TNA delivers a classic (Angle vs AJ at Hard Justice), Russo gets annoyed and tries to book the worst stuff possible. So instead of letting the issue rest, the two weeks of TV following the big PPV match had Angle vs AJ in gimmick matches. Classic Russo dumbfuck booking (sadly, it's the entire card that gets really poor booking at this point too, is August 2008 the beginning of the end of what was a pretty damn good year for TNA ? With Gail and soon Christian leaving, it has to be a pretty severe blow.)

The 2008 baby face run is okay. The two matches with Angle are quite good, with Jeff working really hard in the role and busting out some dangerous desperation & hope spots. They aren't too polishes or pretty, but they hold up. I remember one of the finishing stretches falling apart toward the end, but I can't recall if it's the BFG bout or the Genesis rematch. The story itself is a little wonky, with Jeff being embraced & welcomed back as the Founder - but of course it's TNA, so they book Kurt (the heel) to overcome all these obstacles and jump through hurdles to "earn" the rematch. It's not terrible, but it does ultimately bring things down a little.

 

Even better is their 2011 feud though. Jeff puts it ALL together, and the obnoxious husband/wife act with Karen is top notch shit. You get MMA Jeff, which transitions into the power couple stuff later. The series of matches he has with Kurt that year is a tremendous run. They build from month to month, with each finishing stretch playing directly off the one that preceded it. There are stakes, there are gimmicks, there are stipulations, and they're all really fun. I remember the Lockdown cage match having at least a half-dozen close calls that'll have you biting & buying as the finish. Hell, they even manage to make Chyna's comeback in a mixed tag into something fun, by way of Karen doing her best to channel Stephanie and get her comeuppance. That whole series is the dog & pony "Double J special" you talked about on full display.

 

The Planet Jarrett stuff also had a payoff unlike the HHH stuff. You get to Bound For Glory, Sting no sells the guitar and beats him. That's it for Jarrett the main eventer. The last shot of him is him dejected in the corner as Sting celebrates. It was actually a really satisfying end to his run.

Great point about the payoff. I was just thinking in terms of the matches, but yeah. You're right. It was all tied up nicely with the satisfying payoff in terms of its story.

[Mad Dog]

Also on Jeff Jarrett. I think he's one of Kurt Angle's best opponents for his career. He actually forced Angle to slow down and give some meaning to the spots in the matches. I also though Double M-A Jarrett was a great heel persona.

[El-P]

Even better is their 2011 feud though. Jeff puts it ALL together, and the obnoxious husband/wife act with Karen is top notch shit.

 

That's the one I really look forward too, as I'm a fan of Karen, and the real-life dynamic is "only in pro-wrestling" level of fuckery. It was pretty fascinating to see the Angle couple slowly but surely go to hell in 2008, meanwhile IRL, Karen would go for a divorce a few months later. Talk about life imitating art (or the other way around).

[Victator]

I love that shot of Jarrett sat in the corner looking up at Sting with the belt as the crowd is going mad. Jarrett really sold it well. I'm sure most people who complain about Jeff have never seen a lot of his work. These are probably the people who remember a lot of HHH's though.

There is this great moment when Joe stole the NWA belt from Jarrett, Christian challenged Joe to a fight and during the fight you get the schmozz finish. Angle and Joe start fighting and Jarrett runs in and reclaims the belt. Going up the aisle he looks at the belt ashamed of himself.

[Boss Rock]

One thing I will say about Jarrett is that the guy knew how to make you hate him. I think it got to levels of "go away" heat with how often he dominated the title picture (at least to me anyway), but he was still a terrific scumbag.

[shodate]

i think the TNA comes from bad Booking over bad work for the most part Good booking Helps good work but bad booking hardly ever = bad work unless its bad booking of bad worker and for the tna i have watched minus is like x or y style or not i can notice good or bad work yes as any wrestling fan weather pro anti or ambivalent on TNA>IW Or whatever thye call themselves this week you have say Vince russo cannot book wrestling.

 

im overall r ambivalent on this promotion thay have a very good stuff angle vs joe Cage match for example the match structure Helped that alot

 

 

Booking Hurts Tna more than the work does from what i have seen and sometmies bad match structure Hurts Things

[El-P]

How do you know that Russo finally got his dirty hands on the women's division ?

 

No more Awesome Kong vs Gail Kim. No more Awesome Kong challenge leading to a great underdog upset.

 

Instead :

 

Beauty Pageant with the Beautiful People, who are know saddled with Billy Gunn as a makeup-artist.

 

Watching TNA, I think there's something about Russo that is absolutely destructive on purpose. Twice after a great in-ring focused product (Angle vs Joe in the cage and Angle vs Styles last man standing), the booking takes a nosedive with hotshotting and gimmicks galore. Now that Gail is out of the picture so we can't have more great Gail vs Kong matches, the women's division is turning into every Russo sexist cliché & bullshit.

[Mad Dog]

It still upsets me that they brought him back. It was so needless. I thought they were on a great path throughout 2006. They had some buzz and they broke even the next year financially. It's such a waste because 2006 TNA still holds up as a good product to me.

[With Coil]

Summer of 1998 WWF is when I know Russoism has taken control. It was creeping inch by inch in 1997 and it began unfolding itself in 1998. I noticed it in TNA when he came back. Watching Russo television is like the transition from Planet Namek to Frieza saga's. 1999 WWF is like when Planet Namek is beginning to fall apart.. 2000 WCW is when it explodes. Only not as interesting.

[El-P]

Just picture 2007 & 2008, with the talent they had and D'Amore & Mantell booking... I wonder how bad the quality drop is when Dutch gets fired in 2009.

[Mad Dog]

It's almost immediate in 2006. Bound For Glory is a high note and the TV immediately starts going to shit and you get Abyss winning the belt on a DQ a month later.

[El-P]

Oh yeah, the 2006 drop is downright brutal (although D'Amore booking had already began to show clear signs of burn out). It takes a while for the product to recover to the point the first 7 months of 2008 are actually the best since 2005, despite Russo's bullshit.

[Alucard]

I thought the end of 2009 had some really good stuff for awhile despite Russo, just before the Hulkamania era kicked off in 2010.

[Victator]

Summer of 1998 WWF is when I know Russoism has taken control. It was creeping inch by inch in 1997 and it began unfolding itself in 1998. I noticed it in TNA when he came back. Watching Russo television is like the transition from Planet Namek to Frieza saga's. 1999 WWF is like when Planet Namek is beginning to fall apart.. 2000 WCW is when it explodes. Only not as interesting.

Toriyama knew how to book a clean finish and a match longer than five minutes.