Is TNA the worst wrestling promotion in history?

[Jimmy Redman]

I thought the end of 2009 had some really good stuff for awhile despite Russo, just before the Hulkamania era kicked off in 2010.

 

Yeah there's a lame duck period between the announcement (September? October?) and the 1/4/10 show where they just redid classic matches like AJ-Joe-Daniels and AJ-Daniels as PPV main events and just got all the workrate out before Hogan came and it was at least some good wrestling.

[Victator]

It was a waste when they did not kill the six sided ring on TV. Just moving to a good ring at random.

They could have had a guy like Hernandez or Matt Morgan destroy it.

[Boss Rock]

I was always against the move to the four-sided ring. Six sides is what made them unique.

[Mrzfn]

But nobody liked working in it, and it was obviously awkward at times for guys who were used to 4 sides. I know there's an argument for it being a novelty but honestly I don't think it was making a difference this late in the game for the fans. Plus the change allows them to give another point of visual separation from past eras, which fits with them trying to distance themselves in general from bad associations people may have.

[SomethingSavage]

When they moved away from the six-sided ring, it felt fine. I know some people were upset, but I stuck with TNA from the beginning (at that point) and didn't mind at all. The concept felt like it had fully run its course & served its purpose by then.

 

I mean, yeah. At first, it helped them to stand out. But by 2010? It made no difference. And it was becoming a case of being a limiting factor, because you had to recruit new talent (Jeff Hardy, RVD, etc.) that felt much more accustomed to the 4-sided ring. Why run the risk of alienating future talent or future deals at that point? Just go with the traditional ring and move on.

 

I remember some talk about it being detrimental more so for the X Division guys, but that didn't turn out to be true either. Once the X Division was restocked, the likes of Aries, Kendrick, Shelley, Kash, etc were tearing it up in the 4 sides like it ain't no thing.

[NintendoLogic]

Did the six sides contribute anything positive to the in-ring product? It felt like a case of being different just for the sake of being different.

[SomethingSavage]

That's pretty much all it ever was, but there was this belief that it somehow added to the X Division action because there were more angles or turnbuckles or something. I don't know.

[sek69]

IIRC the idea was someone flipping channels would see the six sided ring and it would be eye catching enough for them to stop to see what's going on.

 

Which...okay, I guess that's not the worst idea. The flaw in the logic is that that person would likely get driven back away again by what was being booked inside said ring.

[SomethingSavage]

Do you really expect anyone to believe you weren't glued to your screen for the enthralling story of Abyss shooting his father or Prince AJ accidentally marrying Karen Angle?

 

GTFO with that noise. The world was watching!

[El-P]

The Abyss stuff was eye gouging. Thankfully he was gone for a long time after that point. It seems like Russo was hell-bent on trying to reproduce the shittiest aspect of every Kane angles ever with Abyss. Poor James Mitchell, he was given so much awful stuff in TNA.

AJ & Karen I admit I enjoyed, simply because AJ is one hell of a trooper and Karen is just that good. Plus it was fascinating the way they played up Karen & Kurt's marriage going to hell while it was pretty much happening IRL, probably for some of the same reasons (Kurt being insane and really not focusing on his family).

[SomethingSavage]

Hmm. Well I find my tastes line up pretty well with yours on most things, so i'll take your word that there's anything remotely enjoyable in that AJ/Kurt/Karen stuff. I haven't watched it in forever (aside from the Hard Justice match and the Full Metal Mayhem tag from Houston), so I'm not entirely sure.

 

I do remember hating it at the time though. The Prince AJ stuff made him look like a goof. He basically went from southern fired up baby face to being Crash Holly or some shit. Just awful. He eventually scaled his way up eventually, but it was through sheer hard work and yet another turn to get him there.

 

The way I remember it, Tomko was the guy looking like a star in that whole mess. Here he was, basically being portrayed as this big badass enforcer, who just happens to be caught up with all these clowns surrounding him. I know that sounds ridiculous now with everything in the rear view, but Tomko was basically presented as the Batista of the group & several people were buying it.

 

Edit: Come to think of it, my memory of the timeline might be a little off. The Tomko stuff may have been before the AJ/Kurt feud, because I remember Christian being involved. So maybe it was the Christian-AJ-Tomko faction and not the one they later formed with Angle? Hell, I don't know. The point still stands though.

[El-P]

I do remember hating it at the time though. The Prince AJ stuff made him look like a goof. He basically went from southern fired up baby face to being Crash Holly or some shit.

 

He was, really. But he was playing it straight and went all the way with it so I found him to be enjoyable despite the awful material. Plus he was so good inside the ring that it did not matter when it came time to actually work.

 

The way I remember it, Tomko was the guy looking like a star in that whole mess. Here he was, basically being portrayed as this big badass enforcer, who just happens to be caught up with all these clowns surrounding him. I know that sounds ridiculous now with everything in the rear view, but Tomko was basically presented as the Batista of the group & several people were buying it.

 

 

I enjoyed Tomko a lot and he really came off like a valuable guy during that time. Good on promos, really solid in the ring. He was quite the good surprise to me, as I'm not familiar at all with his WWE work. I've just reached the point where he's gone, sadly. I know soon Christian leaves too. After Gail quiting, that's a bunch of bad departures that hurt the roster a lot to me.

 

Yeah, I'm only ten years behind.

[SomethingSavage]

I'm trying to picture where it is you're at and recall what I liked about it. I remember BFG that year being fairly fun overall, so there's that maybe?

 

Were the Christian/Booker matches any good? I believe that was Christian's last program before he bolted back to the E, but I can't remember how they turned out. I *think* that was also around the time where Book brought out his own vanity belt, right? Sharmell was around, too. Always thought she added a lot to his act - and especially at ringside.

 

A good chunk of 2009 is scorched earth to me. I'm not even sure if that's because of how bad the product actually was at the time, or if it's just a matter of circumstances. I had just bought my house around that time, and I had a *lot* of priorities on my plate. Wrestling in general took a backseat for me. I kept up with Punk/Jeff later on but almost everything else is a post-traumatic blur.

 

There's an abundance of Main Event Mafia horse shit that year - I do know that much. I think they tease a breakup for about five months before they actually do it, and the whole thing just dies with a whimper.

 

There's some AJ/Nash and AJ/Booker matches that I've considered revisiting, but I just never have. I'd be curious to know how those hold up though. I don't remember them being anything significant at the time.

 

There's that pitiful main event run with Foley. Funnily enough, I remember liking the one-on-one match he had with Kurt, but I couldn't tell you the slightest reason why. Wonder how that looks all these years later also.

 

The end of the year is enjoyable though. Once they put the belt back on AJ and fill the gap with him serving as top star, things are simple but streamlined. The fourth AJ/Daniels/Joe match is every bit as good as the first trilogy, and the Daniels/AJ match the next month is a banger, too.

 

I really should go back and try to catch some of this stuff, but I'm not nearly as brave as you to navigate my way through their weekly television. If I could find the time, I'd definitely give some of the major matches a re-watch at some stage though. Eager to see what you make of them in the meantime.

[El-P]

I'm trying to picture where it is you're at and recall what I liked about it. I remember BFG that year being fairly fun overall, so there's that maybe?

 

Were the Christian/Booker matches any good? I believe that was Christian's last program before he bolted back to the E, but I can't remember how they turned out. I *think* that was also around the time where Book brought out his own vanity belt, right? Sharmell was around, too. Always thought she added a lot to his act - and especially at ringside.

 

I'm basically after Hard Justice where AJ Styles & Kurt Angle had a great match. Tomko & Gail have their last TV matches before the next PPV. Jarrett is coming back as a babyface. I've not yet delved into Booker vs Christian. Thus far Booker has been pretty ok (I was never high on Booker to begin with, especially in WCW where he was overrated as all hell to me), especially since turning heel with that almost-King-Booker character. Sharmell did add to that act. She's just a natural.

 

I must say something about Team 3D. They have been just terrific since day one in TNA. Worked well as heels, babyfaces, serious feuds, comedy, bloody brawls, whatever they had to do (and they put tons of people over too). Bubba really strikes me as one of the best promo of the last 20 years and he's just a super solid worker to boot. Not guys who will have great matches, but who will always deliver no matter what position they are put into. Their stock really has risen with me with this TNA stint thus far.

[SomethingSavage]

Preach!

 

Seriously, I said the same thing elsewhere awhile back - specifically praising some of their early work right away against AMW in the beginning - and people reacted like I had just slapped their children in the mouths.

 

You're absolutely right though. Team 3D (despised the name change back then, although I understand completely why they had to do it) really seemed to rediscover whatever it was that they loved about the business once they parachuted into TNA. Right away, they were taking part in some SOOPAH fun brawls and plunder matches. I dug the alliance with Rhino early on and alot of their tag feuds.

 

The stuff with Christian and the glass table was sick. I remember my roommate TiVoing (hey, 'member TiVo) it that week, and we must have watched that segment back a couple dozen times. We were, of course, in attendance for that Full Metal Mayhem match to blow-off the feud later, too.

 

A lot of people got fully on board with Bully Ray well after he went solo and had the fantastic Slammiversary match with AJ, but he was honestly a truckload of fun way before that. The shit with Team 3D being the bullies of the X Division was great. The little retirement deal that led to them making a BIG deal out of the Machine Guns being the first team to ever kick out of the Death Drop was neat also.

 

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I thought D-Von did a decent job as a standalone baby face for awhile, too. There wasn't much to his character or anything, but i thought he showed some genuine baby face fire in his comebacks. He got really lean and was stringing together solid - not spectacular - matches for the TV Title. I was legitimately happy foe the guy when I heard Hogan praising him in an interview around that time.

 

Bully, of course, went on to be involved in a bunch of great stuff. The brief team with Steiner, the constant bullying of Abyss, the incredibly underrated deal with Austin Aries (which practically catapulted A Double from X Division guy to main event made guy), and on & on.

 

But yes. I'm in absolute agreement that they were surprisingly good in TNA. And I'd listen to a case for it being a stronger run overall than their WWE run, which burned brighter & hotter - but also burnt out quickly and never lit up again. They were so stale & stagnant for so long there. I just feel like there were fewer slumps and lulls in their TNA tenure altogether.

 

I'm not sure how familiar you are with those later TNA years - and I hope I'm not just spilling a bunch of spoilers at your feet here - but there's still plenty of good stuff from them after 2008, for sure.

[Alucard]

A lot of people got fully on board with Bully Ray well after he went solo and had the fantastic Slammiversary match with AJ, but he was honestly a truckload of fun way before that. The shit with Team 3D being the bullies of the X Division was great. The little retirement deal that led to them making a BIG deal out of the Machine Guns being the first team to ever kick out of the Death Drop was neat also.

 

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I thought D-Von did a decent job as a standalone baby face for awhile, too. There wasn't much to his character or anything, but i thought he showed some genuine baby face fire in his comebacks. He got really lean and was stringing together solid - not spectacular - matches for the TV Title. I was legitimately happy foe the guy when I heard Hogan praising him in an interview around that time.

 

Bully, of course, went on to be involved in a bunch of great stuff. The brief team with Steiner, the constant bullying of Abyss, the incredibly underrated deal with Austin Aries (which practically catapulted A Double from X Division guy to main event made guy), and on & on.

 

Agreed with all of this. Those 3D/Machine Guns matches were awesome. D-Von was a super fun fighting TV champ, when they attempted and quickly abandoned having the 'TV title defended every week' rule, and he was always over too. And Bully/Aries was one of my favorite matches then, Aries had killer matches with everyone at that time and his rise from X Division to World Champ was the absolute best.

[With Coil]

I am so glad Tomko was praised here.. I have been wanting to give that guy his deserved praise on this board but figured people would think I am completely mad because 'loltomko'. He really, really came across well during his time in TNA because he was such a forgettable mook to me in WWE. Of course TNA completely fucking missed the boat with him as he was hot for a little while.

[El-P]

I'm not sure how familiar you are with those later TNA years - and I hope I'm not just spilling a bunch of spoilers at your feet here - but there's still plenty of good stuff from them after 2008, for sure.

 

I haven't seen any (apart from the infamous Benny Hill montage on some Hogan/Flair era bullshit, the Jeff Hardy debacle and maybe a match or two picked randomly over the years). Dont mind far ahead spoilers, it's more like teasers at this point.

 

Hey, this is turning into "There's also plenty of good stuff in TNA". Nice.

[Boss Rock]

Preach!

 

Seriously, I said the same thing elsewhere awhile back - specifically praising some of their early work right away against AMW in the beginning - and people reacted like I had just slapped their children in the mouths.

 

You're absolutely right though. Team 3D (despised the name change back then, although I understand completely why they had to do it) really seemed to rediscover whatever it was that they loved about the business once they parachuted into TNA. Right away, they were taking part in some SOOPAH fun brawls and plunder matches. I dug the alliance with Rhino early on and alot of their tag feuds.

 

The stuff with Christian and the glass table was sick. I remember my roommate TiVoing (hey, 'member TiVo) it that week, and we must have watched that segment back a couple dozen times. We were, of course, in attendance for that Full Metal Mayhem match to blow-off the feud later, too.

 

A lot of people got fully on board with Bully Ray well after he went solo and had the fantastic Slammiversary match with AJ, but he was honestly a truckload of fun way before that. The shit with Team 3D being the bullies of the X Division was great. The little retirement deal that led to them making a BIG deal out of the Machine Guns being the first team to ever kick out of the Death Drop was neat also.

 

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I thought D-Von did a decent job as a standalone baby face for awhile, too. There wasn't much to his character or anything, but i thought he showed some genuine baby face fire in his comebacks. He got really lean and was stringing together solid - not spectacular - matches for the TV Title. I was legitimately happy foe the guy when I heard Hogan praising him in an interview around that time.

 

Bully, of course, went on to be involved in a bunch of great stuff. The brief team with Steiner, the constant bullying of Abyss, the incredibly underrated deal with Austin Aries (which practically catapulted A Double from X Division guy to main event made guy), and on & on.

 

But yes. I'm in absolute agreement that they were surprisingly good in TNA. And I'd listen to a case for it being a stronger run overall than their WWE run, which burned brighter & hotter - but also burnt out quickly and never lit up again. They were so stale & stagnant for so long there. I just feel like there were fewer slumps and lulls in their TNA tenure altogether.

 

I'm not sure how familiar you are with those later TNA years - and I hope I'm not just spilling a bunch of spoilers at your feet here - but there's still plenty of good stuff from them after 2008, for sure.

 

The weekly weigh-ins Team 3D had to have in order to participate in X Division matches were hilarious.

[Wahoos Leg]

Did the six sides contribute anything positive to the in-ring product? It felt like a case of being different just for the sake of being different.

 

I always felt one of the only real tangible benefits to the six-sided ring was more angles from which Monty Brown could pounce people

 

I've talked to a few guys who worked for TNA through the years, and they universally disliked working in that ring because they said the ropes were rock hard.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think in general it's much easier to look at TNA with fresh eyes now and concentrate on picking out the good stuff, and it probably comes off as not as bad as its reputation.

 

But I know from my memory of the time, TNA was almost always such a hard show to sit through, and the good stuff didn't stick out nearly as much as the bad stuff or the general idea of them squandering their chance to be a strong #2 promotion all those years. They were just...frustrating.

 

Now when we're just looking back at what it was, not what it could have been, you don't feel that as much. You can just look for good matches and be pleasantly surprised.

[Grimmas]

TNA from mid 2005 (when they were off TV) till the last ppv before Bound for Glory in 2006 was great stuff top to bottom. However the ppv before BFG, they had Joe beat Jarrett in a non title match and not just went with Joe, then you had Russo return, Angle, etc... all come in and everything went nuts and fell apart.

 

However, great shit for a year and a half and my favourite promotion at the time, easily.

[El-P]

Like I said many times, the first two third of 2008 have been the best since the 2005/06 D'Amore era. 2007 was a lot rougher…

 

Oh, and Kurt Angle was clearly an MVP in TNA that year (2008) and his stock also has risen a whole lot with me.

[NintendoLogic]

I'm sure a few gems can be picked out even during TNA's darkest periods. But it's like, I'm sure Nickelback has a few good songs too, but I'm not going to scour their discography to try to identify them. Life is too short.

[El-P]

Honestly, TNA has mostly been much easier to go through (ok, not the early weekly PPV era nor the first iMPACT months) than modern WWE or, *gasp* Road to Hell WCW.