Dark Side of the Ring

[C.S.]

Can't believe I'm indulging in this nonsense, but how did Jules even know about Chris's bad dreams?

It's possible the Native superstition is rooted in actual lore, assuming Jules was a "method" wrestler and studied Native customs. (Yeah right!)

[El-P]

Well, if you believe Wikipedia, Jules Strongbow was actually a Native American, unlike his kayfabe italian brother. That doesn't make the whole thing less ridiculous, of course.

[The Thread Killer]

This thread has taken a very weird turn.

[sek69]

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

Can't believe I'm indulging in this nonsense, but how did Jules even know about Chris's bad dreams?

Probably the same way "Psychics" work, educated guesses and cold reading. 

"Hey young boy who's brother died tragically, are you by chance having bad dreams?" is a question that tends to produce one kind of answer. 

[sek69]

Also I feel like any discussion of the Von Erichs should include a link to the Irv Muchnick Penthouse story.

[C.S.]

26 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Probably the same way "Psychics" work, educated guesses and cold reading. 

"Hey young boy who's brother died tragically, are you by chance having bad dreams?" is a question that tends to produce one kind of answer. 

Right, but Jules very specifically noted that Chris was having bad dreams about Indians chasing him. 

[flyonthewall2983]

12 hours ago, sek69 said:

Also I feel like any discussion of the Von Erichs should include a link to the Irv Muchnick Penthouse story.

 

 

[BruiserBrody]

13 hours ago, C.S. said:

Right, but Jules very specifically noted that Chris was having bad dreams about Indians chasing him. 

Jules spent around 45 mins with me discussing the Von Erichs, as well as his spiritual beliefs. He is one of the leaders of the local Oneida nation as an elder.  His story is that while at a giant Pow Wow in Oklahoma or somesuch, a medicine man who he had never met came up to Jules and told him basically he has an aura.  That aura is partly the spirits of the fallen who use him as a vessel to spread the Oneida traditions. Due to his upbringing in the tribe, and his respect for their history and traditions, he is a chosen one within their people. 

To elaborate a bit further, he said if a white man had taken the arrow heads, the spirits would not usually follow them as the spirits realize the ignorance of the whites to their culture.  Therefore, Jules believes that the Adkinson's had some native blood in them. 

[BruiserBrody]

21 hours ago, hammerva said:

Yeah I assume that Jules from that same Native American hotbed of New Jersey like his dad was     But I also believe that Chris probably thought he was an actual Native American

 

"Jules" is Francis Huntington. He grew up in Wisconsin, and was recruited due to his excellent grades to work in military special forces in the mid-60s. After serving for several years, Francis came home. Instead of using his brains to get rich, his ego got in the way and he sought the stardom of wrestling.  He started training in Milwaukee and worked a few outlaw shows before he became an AWA job guy Frank Hill. After a few years of that, Verne used Francis as a regular on the road, with Francis keeping a full time job at a phone company at the same time. He would get off of work at 3 in Milwaukee and race like heck to hit the Minn, Wisconsin, Illinois, etc shows as he was othen the opening act. 

His biggest early win was besting Ricky Steamboat as the Dragon was set to leave for....Florida(?).  Da Crusher, Ray Stevens and Nick Bockwinkel were all big fans of Francis and they worked as his mentors.  Crusher even tried to convince Verne to push Francis, but Gagne felt his years of losing would make it impossible. Eventually it was pitched to Wahoo to form a team and work on top. Wahoo refused. This was around the time Francis and Wahoo headed for Japan for the World League.  Baba discovered Francis was fluent in Japanese (and German) and asked him to deliver the finishes and whatnot in his locker room. 

In 1980 Francis finally branched out and went to work in L.A., he eventually worked for Leroy McGuirk in 1982 when George Scott was there trying to recreate Mid Atlantic with Paul Jones, Snuka, and others working on top.  Vince Sr got word of his size and experience and called Francis up to NY to team with the 50 something Jay.  Since Jay was a road agent, he had Jules help him with paperwork and such.  When Vince found out he chewed Jay out for bypassing his duties, and gave Francis more money each week to cover the time spent doing the books. 

Francis was at the hotel the night Snuka was arrested for the murder of his gf. Francis closed the drapes and avoided the whole scene.  He was/is a non drinker and was not a part of the crazy events of the road. 

Eventually he was given his end date and went on to work for Portland and WCCW before his friendship with Afa got him working with Afa's group as a booker and wrestler.  Jules spent much of the late 80s on the East Coast working NWF shows. He also did many international tours of Australia, the Middle East and so on.   

 

[CarpetCrawler]

The Von Erich episode was pretty good.  I think the documentary kinda needed Jim Cornette to be brutally honest, pulling no punches, and down to Earth about the whole situation.  You really do feel for Kevin and some of my favorite parts of the documentary were him talking about his family and where he goes to spend time by himself.  He was definitely the best part of the documentary and I'm really happy even through all the shit he's gone through he's still fighting through everything and seems to be at peace with his entire life, or at least at the best he can.

[El Boricua]

On 5/3/2019 at 5:52 PM, C.S. said:

This show seems to alternate between great episodes and terrible ones.

The show is well put together and does a great job in getting across the emotional and human elements of these stories.And, although in several cases there isn't really too much new information presented, the target audience isn't really people knowledgeable about the subject, these are more for people not really aware about the topics presented. 

But this sentence reminds me of something I've noticed about the comments made across the Internet about the different episodes and how good or terrible they are. It seems to me that, for the most part, what determines whether someone finds the episode to be good or not as good is related to how easily they can spot the misinformation or BS being passed off in the stories told by those being interviewed. It's most prevalent for the Montreal episode, a subject that has been covered so many times and more in-depth elsewhere that it's easier for people to spot when something isn't correct. To a lesser extent, I've seen some comments about the Von Erichs were some issue is taken with how certain things are presented.

Makes me wonder about what information in the topics I'm not familiar with falls into this area. Also gives some pause when you realize there are people not familiar with these topics who will just take everything presented as the face value truth.

 

 

[El-P]

On 5/7/2019 at 3:35 AM, El Boricua said:

Makes me wonder about what information in the topics I'm not familiar with falls into this area.

Couldn't agree more. Which is why, at first, I had no idea what to make of the Gino episode. Of course, by the end, I was like "ok, so basically Gary Hart was right and that's that."

From a narrative standpoint, I thought it was excellent. My big reservation is the last bit with the mother, which I found quite exploitative. Apart from that, yeah, it sure tells a good story, with twist and turns. The two most interesting bits are the story of the funeral told by Bruce, and Jeannie describing Gino high as a kite on cocaine, on a complete paranoia trip. First thing that came to mind when I saw Jeannie was "I wonder how much money she got from the divorce", because she sure had a crucial part in that "Stone Cold" deal...

But anyway, basically, what Gary Hart told in his last shoot interview was basically it, Gino had a tremendous cocaine habit.

[flyonthewall2983]

 

[The Thread Killer]

That particular rumor about Gino Hernandez and Paul Boesch is covered in detail in the Houston Wrestling episode of "Back to the Territories" hosted by Jim Cornette, featuring Bruce Prichard.  (I highly recommend that episode, by the way.  Prichard might be full of crap, but he loves talking about his start in Houston working for Paul Boesch.) They discuss that particular issue at about 2:25 of this clip.

[C.S.]

On 5/6/2019 at 9:35 PM, El Boricua said:

But this sentence reminds me of something I've noticed about the comments made across the Internet about the different episodes and how good or terrible they are. It seems to me that, for the most part, what determines whether someone finds the episode to be good or not as good is related to how easily they can spot the misinformation or BS being passed off in the stories told by those being interviewed.  

There may be something to this, as I thought the Gino episode was superb, BUT I didn't know much about his story going in.

The only drawback, for me, was that it went into conspiracy theories a little too much for my liking. I don't even mean the murder theory, but the crazier speculation that he may have faked his own death, etc.

The murder theory is not new to this, BTW - Michael Hayes brought it up a few years ago on WWE Network's Legends With JBL show, and I doubt the idea originated with him. Hayes's reasoning for believing an alternate theory - "Gino could handle his coke" - was absurd.

In case anyone is wondering why Jeanie Clarke (AKA Lady Blossom, AKA the ex-Mrs. Austin) was featured so heavily, she, Gino, and a bunch of other wrestlers actually lived in the same apartment complex and were all very close. In her book, she goes into detail about Gino's paranoia toward the end. (She also paints a very dark picture of Steve Austin.)

My heart broke for Gino's poor, grieving, paranoid mother who thought someone was out to get her too for 30 years.

Not being all that familiar with Gino, it really struck me what a tremendous Horseman he would've made. Had he lived, I think that's where he would've ended up. 

[El-P]

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

In case anyone is wondering why Jeanie Clarke (AKA Lady Blossom, AKA the ex-Mrs. Austin) was featured so heavily, she, Gino, and a bunch of other wrestlers actually lived in the same apartment complex and were all very close. In her book, she goes into detail about Gino's paranoia toward the end. (She also paints a very dark picture of Steve Austin.)

Well yes, she was married to Chris Adams at the time, who was Gino's tag team partner. Care to elaborate a bit about Austin (although that's off topic, and I would guess maybe she had some of the same experience as Debra, to whom she ressembles a lot btw) ?

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

Not being all that familiar with Gino, it really struck me what a tremendous Horseman he would've made. Had he lived, I think that's where he would've ended up. 

Meltz mentioned in the latest WOR that Gino was pretty much so-so in the ring (can't speak for the earlier stuff, but I wasn't very impressed from what I've seen from World Class indeed), and that the Crocketts had no interest in him.

[sek69]

The anonymous source who basically said Gino was involved in dealing and that led to is paranoia increasing leading to his OD seems to put a bow on things except for one thing:  the vast amount of coke in his system. It's hard to understate how much we're talking about if the folks doing the autopsy were amazed by the amount, and this was Dallas in the 80s when Scarface was seen as an educational video.  Bix seems to think there's something to the "Jack Royal gave Gino bad coke that killed him" based on his recent tweets, but at the levels he had in his system one would think it wouldn't matter at that point if it's the bad stuff or not. 

[Loss]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

Well yes, she was married to Chris Adams at the time, who was Gino's tag team partner. Care to elaborate a bit about Austin (although that's off topic, and I would guess maybe she had some of the same experience as Debra, to whom she ressembles a lot btw) ?

Meltz mentioned in the latest WOR that Gino was pretty much so-so in the ring (can't speak for the earlier stuff, but I wasn't very impressed from what I've seen from World Class indeed), and that the Crocketts had no interest in him.

Sort of makes me laugh. The NWA was interested in Jimmy Garvin.

[hammerva]

If we are to believe the Gary Hart book, I thought he was given the green light to bring in Gino, Chris and the one man Gang to Crockett because he thought Gino needed a change of scenery from Texas and they weren't interested.  Although the timeline that Gary was in that area doesn't seem to match so maybe not

Gino wasn't great in the sense of his technical ability.  I would agree that Tully Blanchard and Chris Adams were probably better "workers" of the Dynamic Duos.  but nobody can make you hate someone more than Gino.   He cut great promos and was just a complete heat magnet.    I mean I don't know if the hair vs hair match has the same level of hate if it was Chris and someone else 

 

[Bix]

10 hours ago, sek69 said:

The anonymous source who basically said Gino was involved in dealing and that led to is paranoia increasing leading to his OD seems to put a bow on things except for one thing:  the vast amount of coke in his system. It's hard to understate how much we're talking about if the folks doing the autopsy were amazed by the amount, and this was Dallas in the 80s when Scarface was seen as an educational video.  Bix seems to think there's something to the "Jack Royal gave Gino bad coke that killed him" based on his recent tweets, but at the levels he had in his system one would think it wouldn't matter at that point if it's the bad stuff or not. 

To be clear, I'm not running with the theory as much as showing that if nothing else, Royal was telling the truth about the there being a trial and there's probably a lot more down that well  Gino was even a big part of his appeal: He wasn't charged with anything having to do with Gino's death, but the idea that Gino died from Royal's "bad cocaine" was still introduced at his federal drug trafficking trial. (And without making further judgments on Royal, it certainly seems he got screwed in terms of that being allowed at trial and it not being viewed as enough for the appellate court to rule in his favor. That stuff is prejudicial as hell.)

I do think, after seeing the doc, that there's something more than a simple O.D. to Gino's death, though, albeit more from the autopsy report discrepancies than the cocaine levels in the toxicology report. I'm also not really sure what I think of the end. On first viewing weeks ago when I got the screener, I thought the anonymous drug runner was reassuring Gino's mom that the family was never in danger after his death. And maybe I just didn't pay close enough attention to what he was saying but I didn't at all think he was saying Gino's death was just a vanilla O.D.?

[sek69]

The impression I got was that he was saying Gino was super paranoid from hanging around dealers and ended up accidentally OD'ing,  and that it wasn't anyone putting a hit out or any other kind of foul play.  

[SirEdger]

12 hours ago, El-P said:

Well yes, she was married to Chris Adams at the time, who was Gino's tag team partner. Care to elaborate a bit about Austin (although that's off topic, and I would guess maybe she had some of the same experience as Debra, to whom she ressembles a lot btw) ?

Meltz mentioned in the latest WOR that Gino was pretty much so-so in the ring (can't speak for the earlier stuff, but I wasn't very impressed from what I've seen from World Class indeed), and that the Crocketts had no interest in him.

But at the same time, I would argue that Gino's arrogance in his persona would've largely compensated for his lesser  wrestling skills. If they were able at one point to book Steve F'N McMichael as a Horseman, there's no way that Gino Hernandez couldn't have been a Horseman. Who knows what could've happened with the group if Gino had been there when Arn & Tully bolted for WWF in 1988. Easier to replace only 1 guy than 2. Flair, Gino & Barry Windham would've made for more than a formidable trio.

[TravJ1979]

On 5/8/2019 at 6:36 PM, flyonthewall2983 said:

 

Probably a good thing Boesch wasn't Gino's biological father.  If she was 16 when she had Gino, that means Boesch would have been around 45 y/o at the time.  I don't know how old Charles Wolfe, Sr. was, but Gino's step-dad was about the same age as Gino's mom.

[flyonthewall2983]

22 hours ago, SirEdger said:

But at the same time, I would argue that Gino's arrogance in his persona would've largely compensated for his lesser  wrestling skills. If they were able at one point to book Steve F'N McMichael as a Horseman, there's no way that Gino Hernandez couldn't have been a Horseman. Who knows what could've happened with the group if Gino had been there when Arn & Tully bolted for WWF in 1988. Easier to replace only 1 guy than 2. Flair, Gino & Barry Windham would've made for more than a formidable trio.

Gino would have been a better Horseman than Lex Luger, he might not have been as great as the other three were in the ring but he had more experience than Lex certainly. 

I feel like the inaccuracies about the autopsy mentioned makes me think the fact that he "had enough coke in his system to kill an elephant" might be one too. 

I'm surprised they didn't mention the rumors of him being bisexual and would be essentially pimped out to rich, gay men at times (if I remember that right). 

[El-P]

Saw the Moolah one. Yeah, she comes off like a complete dirtbag. But the documentary is odd, as there's some kind of bizarre tentative of wrapping things up on a more "positive" way, with even Princess Victoria saying you can't call her a pimp, despite telling a story earlier of Moolah basically pimping her (and painting a very dark picture of Moolah overall, with manipulative behaviour, throwing her away after she broke her neck and whatnot). The Sweet Georgia Brown story is fascinating, she would probably deserve more time. No idea who's the goofball doing the "Fight for Moolah" stuff, but he looks like a complete idiot. Also, Richter saying she didn't know Spider Lady was Moolah came off carny as hell. Yeah, Sting didn't know the Black Scorpion was Ric Flair either I'm sure… Interesting stuff, but way too much bullshit and odd choices of interviews (the daughter has nothing to say, the goofball is useless).