WWE TV 5/27-6/2 RAW IS WILL VINCE RESIST TAKING SHOTS AT AEW

[Stiva]

Yeah, NXT really hit such a high watermark of delivering on big shows that is almost impossible to keep up. Takeovers have been pretty much universally excellent since their inception so it’s only natural they’d drop at some point. Looking at the card for the coming Takeover, I’m almost sure it’ll be excellent but people are losing interest in NXT, precisely because they know that once the wrestlers get called up, everything they loved about them in NXT, is going to get stripped away and ruined. 

[Strummer]

So they seem to implying that .Brock is going to cash in on .Seth Monday.  Teasing that Brock will wrestle on the show.

 

pretty sure it will be a bait and switch to set up something at the Saudi show

[Alucard]

I don't feel like NXT has been the "land of great booking" that it's often referred to as in years. It was great in 2015-2017 but I find it completely boring these days, with horribly stale acts on top.

[The Thread Killer]

6 hours ago, Stiva said:

Looking at the card for the coming Takeover, I’m almost sure it’ll be excellent but people are losing interest in NXT, precisely because they know that once the wrestlers get called up, everything they loved about them in NXT, is going to get stripped away and ruined. 

You hit the nail right on the head.  I love NXT, and I can't honestly say that there has ever been a Takeover that I would classify as being a "bad" show.  Some are better than others obviously, but they hit the target a lot more often than not.  But as a fan, I'm finding it harder and harder to enjoy NXT when I know that if there is a talent I really like, the odds are about 3-1 that they're going to get either criminally misused or totally buried once they get called up to the main roster.  I find it kind of hilarious that one of the talents that I liked the least from NXT in Baron Corbin, is one of the few NXT guys who got a massive push upon being called up.

Also, maybe it's just me but I have noticed a significant difference in the quality and style of NXT shows since Shawn Michaels started working there.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

18 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

NXT is in even worse shape than the main roster, in terms of ideas.

Let's take the women's division, for instance. With the main roster we can say that they are trying to integrate Lacey Evans into the dance, and actually succeeded, plus they pushed Becky and Bayley is back on track again while Sasha is taking a break.

On NXT, the only noteworthy wrestler in Shayna, and much of her presence is in detriment to the other wrestlers. Belair got defeated and didn't do much else afterwards, and Kairi's reign was a very short one. Baszler rules the division and doesn't really share the spotlight with anyone.

The time they are waiting to give the Street Profits, one of the best acts around, a proper title reign is also pretty bad.

I get criticizing the shit out of RAW and SD, but NXT feels like more of a black hole. If HHH is the one true hope, the New York office is fucked.

I mean, it has always felt kind of obvious to me that the person most pushing the HHH savior story was HHH.  

The whole WWE operation is just depressing and it sucks that so many wrestlers that I love watching are stuck doing nothing.  And like many have said, NXT isn’t even that good lately.  I used to think it was fine when they would sign someone I was a big fan of because they would be able to recharge for a while, live in FL, maybe work some TV, and go back on the indies.  Now it’s just an abyss.

[Mad Dog]

8 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

You hit the nail right on the head.  I love NXT, and I can't honestly say that there has ever been a Takeover that I would classify as being a "bad" show.  Some are better than others obviously, but they hit the target a lot more often than not.  But as a fan, I'm finding it harder and harder to enjoy NXT when I know that if there is a talent I really like, the odds are about 3-1 that they're going to get either criminally misused or totally buried once they get called up to the main roster.  I find it kind of hilarious that one of the talents that I liked the least from NXT in Baron Corbin, is one of the few NXT guys who got a massive push upon being called up.

Also, maybe it's just me but I have noticed a significant difference in the quality and style of NXT shows since Shawn Michaels started working there.

The worst ones were the late 2016 and early 2017 ones where Bobby Roode was moving up the card and becoming champion. I would have to go back and watch but I remember one of those being sort of bad. Maybe Orlando or San Antonio. There are a lot of them that I would classify as one match shows though.

[Mad Dog]

I also wanted to mention what I think has been NXT's biggest blunder recently and that's the North American Championship. Dream has kind of made it seem important but they did an absolutely shitty job with the belt for a solid year. It was a meaningless prop almost immediately after being introduced. 

I also think the way they handled the current tag team title situation was absolutely terrible and buried the Street Profits. That angle was straight out of the bad booking handbook.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

19 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

The worst ones were the late 2016 and early 2017 ones where Bobby Roode was moving up the card and becoming champion. I would have to go back and watch but I remember one of those being sort of bad. Maybe Orlando or San Antonio. There are a lot of them that I would classify as one match shows though.

The Toronto one in late 2016 was pretty trash, IMO.  However, it had a DIY/Revival match that was great.  It was like a main roster PPV.  A bunch of garbage with a good match in the middle that makes everyone forget that the show on the whole was bad.

[Mad Dog]

3 minutes ago, Zoo Enthusiast said:

The Toronto one in late 2016 was pretty trash, IMO.  However, it had a DIY/Revival match that was great.  It was like a main roster PPV.  A bunch of garbage with a good match in the middle that makes everyone forget that the show on the whole was bad.

Oh yeah, that looks pretty awful outside of that match. Joe and Nakamura never really clicked in their matches either. Wasn't Asuka/James pretty terrible?

[Zoo Enthusiast]

5 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

Oh yeah, that looks pretty awful outside of that match. Joe and Nakamura never really clicked in their matches either. Wasn't Asuka/James pretty terrible?

Yeah, especially considering how good Asuka was during this time.

[NintendoLogic]

In other news, here's what awaits us on Raw.

The Brock boombox stuff was entertaining and got over, so of course they have to find a way to attach a McMahon to it.

[Mad Dog]

Well you can't have things being fun on TV.

[sek69]

On 5/31/2019 at 1:31 PM, El-P said:

NXT was easy business. Sign hot indy talent. Push them against each others in dream matches context. Reeks in the glory of the otherwise despised "Smart fans". What has NXT *produced* out of the blue, say like the NJ dojo ? In the last few years, NXT has been a recycling bin for already experienced good to great workers. HHH as this great booker and savior of WWE once Vince dies is a completely flawed narrative. If you consider the insane potential of the amount of talent they have signed, and what they actually do with them, it's not pretty. Hey, remember when Ricochet looked special in Lucha Underground...

 

There was an almost throwaway mention in the WON this week about how Ricochet's time on the main roster opened a lot of people's eyes in NXT. Seeing a guy that can't-miss in the process of being wasted seems to be cutting through whatever magic spells they weave down there.

[Tim Evans]

I don't get how ricochet is being "wasted"? Do people think he should have beat Brock or Roman his first night in or something. He's on TV every week and is at least getting wins. Probably should have won MITB. It's not like he's kairi who really is being wasted on the main roster.

[sek69]

He's trading wins with Cesaro, who's spent most of his time in a gatekeeper tag team. He shouldn't be losing in random ass Raw matches to guys the greater crowd sees as midcard 4 life. No one is saying he should be beating Brock or Roman, but it's nice wrestling bubble black-or-white thinking. There's tons of middle ground between that and not going 50-50 by month two.

[DMJ]

- I don't think there's been a bad Takeover, but part of that is that the shows, compared to the main roster's, are considerably shorter and only happen every 3 months. Injuries have also stalled more than a handful of storylines. Calling any of them a "one match show" feels a bit hyper-critical...but, again, that's compared to the average main roster PPV that sometimes feature a total sum of 0 good matches. 

- I don't think NXT needed the North American Title. Its a "midcard title" for a brand that, at any given time, really shouldn't have a genuine midcard. Its a minor league. Take Velveteen Dream, for example. Why is this guy fighting for a midcard title when (a) he's been over enough to challenge for the NXT Title (a minor league championship) and (b) his best feuds/matches have really been about the clash of personalities anyway. If you've got wrestlers trying to win the second tier championship in a minor league, you've run out of storyline ideas for characters that should be, by definition, being developed with characters that shouldn't need titles to give them value/meaning. All the singles in NXT's midcard should be fighting to climb the ranks to be the NXT Champion - that's it. Its not like on the main roster where you have 30+ guys and 1 Championship isn't enough. Its NXT and they really only have what? 7-8 guys at any given time that are getting prominent exposure? 1 title is/was plenty.

For another example - Ricochet. Did he need to win a title? If the answer is "Yes," they should've made the NA Title Ladder Match into a Number One Contender's Match and let him win that. Then he could've challenged Ciampa (or whoever was champ at the time). They created the title to seemingly give him and Cole something to do, but did the title add anything to that feud? If you want to "strap the rocket" on someone in NXT - a developmental minor league - just strap the rocket and put them on top of the show like they did with Owens, Nak, etc. The "rocket" doesn't go all that high. Its not like the NXT brand is depended on to bring in huge revenues or needs stability at the top. Its a developmental minor league that is fun to watch, period. 

[sek69]

You're not wrong, but the NA title came out of having so many people on the roster there they needed something for them to fight for.  The flaw in that logic is that since they only have the one hour of TV per week,  you can't focus on that many people anyway. So in retrospect adding a secondary title was them trying to put a band-aid on a wound that needs stitches. 

Just furthers my theory that historians in 20-25 years will be looking at the hoarding of talent as one of WWE/NXT's biggest issues, just from the ripple effect it creates. 

[SomethingSavage]

On 6/1/2019 at 6:13 PM, DMJ said:

- I don't think there's been a bad Takeover, but part of that is that the shows, compared to the main roster's, are considerably shorter and only happen every 3 months. Injuries have also stalled more than a handful of storylines. Calling any of them a "one match show" feels a bit hyper-critical...but, again, that's compared to the average main roster PPV that sometimes feature a total sum of 0 good matches. 

- I don't think NXT needed the North American Title. Its a "midcard title" for a brand that, at any given time, really shouldn't have a genuine midcard. Its a minor league. Take Velveteen Dream, for example. Why is this guy fighting for a midcard title when (a) he's been over enough to challenge for the NXT Title (a minor league championship) and (b) his best feuds/matches have really been about the clash of personalities anyway. If you've got wrestlers trying to win the second tier championship in a minor league, you've run out of storyline ideas for characters that should be, by definition, being developed with characters that shouldn't need titles to give them value/meaning. All the singles in NXT's midcard should be fighting to climb the ranks to be the NXT Champion - that's it. Its not like on the main roster where you have 30+ guys and 1 Championship isn't enough. Its NXT and they really only have what? 7-8 guys at any given time that are getting prominent exposure? 1 title is/was plenty.

For another example - Ricochet. Did he need to win a title? If the answer is "Yes," they should've made the NA Title Ladder Match into a Number One Contender's Match and let him win that. Then he could've challenged Ciampa (or whoever was champ at the time). They created the title to seemingly give him and Cole something to do, but did the title add anything to that feud? If you want to "strap the rocket" on someone in NXT - a developmental minor league - just strap the rocket and put them on top of the show like they did with Owens, Nak, etc. The "rocket" doesn't go all that high. Its not like the NXT brand is depended on to bring in huge revenues or needs stability at the top. Its a developmental minor league that is fun to watch, period. 

It's another fundamental flaw of this company that affects everything from the top down.

They can't book. Everything has to be about a title. A record. A number. A first-ever. A meaningless statistic that will be wiped away as soon as it's established in the first place.

It's like they have no confidence in themselves to create a compelling story without a belt - and they have no faith that their audience will bite unless there's a meaningless belt attached to every match.

The problem is - these belts aren't stakes. These records aren't meaningful milestones. These numbers and dates and statistics aren't significant in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

And the more they utilize them - then haphazardly sweep them aside for the next big show - the less & less they are ultimately valued.

North American Title. South American Title. East Coast Title. 24/7 Title. First-ever two-time champion. All-time longest whatever the fuck. None of this shit matters.

How about creating characters? Then pitting them against each other in compelling conflicts? Then promoting & hyping the shit out of THAT until the day they fight?

This isn't rocket science. Stop getting so caught up on the fight choreography of it all. Stop being so obsessive-compulsive over verbiage and word selection. Stop lamenting over signature video game poses.

Place the effort and emphasis where it needs to be for God's sake. The rest will follow.

[Blehschmidt]

1 hour ago, SomethingSavage said:

It's another fundamental flaw of this company that affects everything from the top down.

They can't book. Everything has to be about a title. A record. A number. A first-ever. A meaningless statistic that will be wiped away as soon as it's established in the first place.

It's like they have no confidence in themselves to create a compelling story without a belt - and they have no faith that their audience will bite unless there's a meaningless belt attached to every match.

The problem is - these belts aren't stakes. These records aren't meaningful milestones. These numbers and dates and statistics aren't significant in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

And the more they utilize them - then haphazardly sweep them aside for the next big show - the less & less they are ultimately valued.

North American Title. South American Title. East Coast Title. 24/7 Title. First-ever two-time champion. All-time longest whatever the fuck. None of this shit matters.

How about creating characters? Then pitting them against each other in compelling conflicts? Then promoting & hyping the shit out of THAT until the day they fight?

This isn't rocket science. Stop getting so caught up on the fight choreography of it all. Stop being so obsessive-compulsive over verbiage and word selection. Stop lamenting over signature video game poses.

Place the effort and emphasis where it needs to be for God's sake. The rest will follow.

This is the most amazing thing about modern day WWE to me. The company literally did this exact thing for no less than 30 years, and then sometime in the early-2000's it's like they all looked at one of those Men in Black memory flasher gimmicks and decided to throw everything they knew about running the company out the window.

Either that or Brock Lesnar deciding to be a Minnesota Viking truly did such a number on Vince's psyche, that he was willing to never create another star and change the way business had always been done, just to ensure his feelings would never be hurt again. 

[Mad Dog]

The day Stephanie took over as head of creative is when it all started falling apart. 

[Badlittlekitten]

Stephanie’s had nothing to do with creative for years. It’s Vince. Time has passed him by.

[Mad Dog]

She hasn't but that was when it got bad and they have never rebounded. I think about when she took over is when they started bringing in the Hollywood writers and stuff. 

Vince is currently the problem because he's lost touch. 

[Coffey]

The video game poses thing really stuck out to me. It's one of the first things I noticed about Tessa Blanchard - and she's not even in WWE. But it's like she's trying to condition herself the same way. Do everything exactly the same way every single time, so it doesn't feel organic but becomes muscle memory. Come out, turn your ass to the camera, look back over your shoulder and wink. Walk to the ring. Get into the ring. Turn your ass to the camera, look back over your shoulder and wink. 

Every. Single. Time.

It's like she's posing for a video game designer to add her animation into the computer. And EVERYONE in WWE does this. It's like they literally count their steps when walking to the ring. "OK, step number eight needs to be on my left foot & I make a slight hesitation before giving a head nod to the second row..." The only thing missing is masking tape on the ground to tell them where to stand for the shot & some off cam jabrone with a cue card reminder saying HARD CAM to tell them where to look. It doesn't feel like an organic wrestling shows with stakes on the line, it feels like an overproduced high school play where the director is expecting these seventeen year olds to become the next Bob DeNiro while reciting lines from a Troma movie. Regardless of what Vince McMahon wants to believe or tell people, these are still professional wrestlers on a wrestling show, not actors making a movie. 

It's just more homogenization. One of the perks of going to a live show used to be that you might get to see stuff that other people have not seen. Like look at all the different Undertaker entrances over the years. But if then they make it so it's exactly the same every time, how is that any different than what you've just watched from your couch every week? Why would you be more enticed to buy a ticket? 

WWE used to have different sets with different entrances & wrestlers doing different things. Now all the shows just feel like RAW, look like RAW & never feel more important than a RAW. Including Wrestlemania. Which now even seemingly takes a backseat to the blood money Saudi house show. 

[El-P]

6 minutes ago, Coffey said:

The video game poses thing really stuck out to me. It's one of the first things I noticed about Tessa Blanchard - and she's not even in WWE. But it's like she's trying to condition herself the same way. Do everything exactly the same way every single time, so it doesn't feel organic but becomes muscle memory. Come out, turn your ass to the camera, look back over your shoulder and wink. Walk to the ring. Get into the ring. Turn your ass to the camera, look back over your shoulder and wink. 

I have bashed the animatronic entrance for years, but it's funny, Tessa's never struck me that way. Probably because she's got so much charisma and intensity that it simply looks cool as hell when she does her thing.

But yeah, animatronic entrances are the worst in general.

[SomethingSavage]

There's that, and there's also the issue of too much content. I mean, they technically PRODUCE fifty-eleven hours of content every week. But how much of that is actually PRODUCTIVE television?

I maybe could be convinced that approximately an hour or so of their TV (spanning all their shows, mind you) is actually relevant or productive in any meaningful capacity.

Everything else is filler. It's strictly time-killer.

On-screen, that means the bulk of what we see is BUSY WORK. It's guys chasing devalued trophies and meaningless McGuffins just to give them something to do. It's "rivalries" with no rhyme or reason, so they attach a belt to them to make it seem like... Something. The only thing on the line is a title, or a title shot. Or a record nobody cares about, because they just thought it up and will quickly push it aside when they need something for the next rematch.

Creatively, it's the path of least resistance. It's the laziest, most apathetic approach possible. It's running endless rematches to kill time & fill shows - rather than putting in the effort to come up with compelling or engaging characters, motivations, and differences to ignite these rivalries.

It's a broken system from top to bottom. They're working harder instead of smarter, and that's always a red flag. Their focus is in all the wrong areas. I mean, yeah. It's neat to give someone a grand entrance and a nifty pose or whatever the fuck. But how about some attention to detail in your characters?

Nobody gives a fuck what pose you strike if you're simply not over.

No one cares what dinner theatre dialogue you recite through teary eyes before hitting your fifth finisher if you cannot establish a connection with your audience.

They've forgotten the fundamentals. Hell, they've outright forsaken those fundamentals - in favor of this robotic, redundant, lifeless, monotonous horse shit presentation that people seem to have grown sick of AS SOON as an alternative rears its head & reminds them that, oh yeah. It doesn't have to be THIS bad all the time after all.