Comments that don't warrant a thread

[Bob Morris]

It was certainly interesting to watch a number of matches on the SNME DVD as an example of what was really going on.

 

Hogan doesn't have five-star classics, but his matches are quite enjoyable. They do start falling into a formulaic pattern as time goes by, but that seems to be what most people remember. When a wrestler is clearly in decline, particularly when the business declines along with the wrestler, people tend to associate that as said wrestler not being good to begin with.

 

There are those who point out about canned heat during the Warrior match with Honky Tonk Man and it suddenly becomes an example about how Warrior never deserved his push at all. Never mind that, if you look at the crowd, people are reacting to Warrior in the way you would expect for a babyface. And if I'm not mistaken, they put canned heat on that entire SNME episode, and for reasons I don't understand, because it really wasn't a dead crowd on that show. But anyway, everyone seems to remember more about Warrior's failure to draw as the top guy in the company, as opposed to being somebody who is expected to draw well enough on the "B" circuit, but not be the main draw overall.

 

And, of course, we've gone over the Luger situation. What everyone points to the most is Luger's laziness and general disinterest in the business in the mid to late 1990s.

 

It just seems to me with the workers aren't considered to be "the best" by a certain segment, that thus their entire careers should be thrown under the bus by simply point to the years they declined or didn't do so well as if it's evidence that they never were that good or popular to begin with.

 

It probably also hurts for that certain segment to know that Michaels and Angle have failed to draw when put into the top spot of the company. Some of it could be blamed on booking, but a wrestler who is truly successful as a draw can overcome booking that isn't particularly good. Just ask Steve Austin and The Rock.

[Cox]

To follow up on the "HHH as overrated" theme, I have a friend who has recently started watching wrestling again after about a 10-12 year hiatus (he stopped watching WWF right as the Attitude era kicked off, as he did not like the Crash TV format). He just does not get why HHH is pushed at all, outside of the whole marriage thing. To me, he has just sucked the life out of Orton since this whole thing began, because Randy Orton seemed to be in a lot better spot after he won the Rumble than he has been since feuding with HHH (which seems to be a common theme for all HHH opponents except Batista). I have no answer for him...even when I watch HHH, I can't think of why he's pushed other than "Well, he's always been pushed."

[sek69]

HHH is the biggest example of someone getting over by being at the right place at the right time. The WWF threw everything but the kitchen sink into getting him over and nothing worked. He was entrenched as the second banana in the first incarnation of DX, and then when Shawn's back exploded they did everything to make him the top dog and he still came off as a midcarder who's girlfriend looked like more of a threat than he did. It's only when he was put in matches with guys like Foley, Rock, and Austin that all of a sudden he was seen as a main event player. It's also no coincidence all three of those guys are more than capable of making someone look like a million bucks. By the time those guys weren't around to make him look good, he was already firmly entrenched with Steph and thereby assuring a place at the big boy table 4 life. When it was HHH's turn to make guys look good, he by and large fails to do so and I don't think it's all GLASS CEILING AND POLITIXXXXXXXX, I think he's just not that good of a worker.

 

It's no accident his best matches since 2000 have usually involved some combination of HBK, Cena, and Benoit.

[Death From Above]

The thing that really gets me about HHH is that, even workrate stuff aside, his look and his interviews and really even his angles... it's exactly the same fucking thing, forever and ever. The character as a whole is so stale it's completely ridiculous, even by WWE's ability to drag things on years past relevance.

 

I mean for the love of Pete, forget HHH/Hogan workrate smart fan issues, at least Hogan dramatically updated his gimmick after a decade or two when it had got so stale that it was dead. Hogan and HHH both have massive egos but Hogan was at least smart enough to do something different if for no other reason than (in his own mind) secure his legacy as the man further. At that point his wrestling was in terrible decline and he'd lost that "acceptable pop single" ability with Hulkamania (that falls into my "WWE is the pop music of pro wrestling" metaphor), but he breathed some new life into himself by going Hollywood. HHH as a wrestling character has never done anything remotely close to as dramatic as the nWo turn. Instead we got a rehashed DX with him and Shawn playing "40-something going on 15" and really it was like watching an 80's rock band reunite to go on tour but fail to do a wardrobe/hairstyle/stage prop update. There are good '80's rockband reunions, and bad '80's rockband reuinions. HHH pulled off the metaphor for the second and seems content to basically do so forever.

 

I'll listen to the same song if I liked it in the first place, but at least give me the impression you know what year it is. Otherwise (and to rip off a line TomK used recently on Chikara to the IRE AND WRATH of Chikara marks) what you're doing isn't a new tour, it's a tour that attracts the fetishists of their youth. "Wow that was a great look back then, at least for one night I can be among my own kind". I don't know what appeal HHH has for fans anymore, except people still wanting to party like it's 1999.

 

There are lots of characters that go stale in wrestling and never change so in a sense targeting HHH for that is unfair, but most of those people drift away and become nothing (either into midcard positions, or into other companies back when there were other companies). Obviously with where he's positioned that isn't going to happen, so it seems like a more valid criticism than usual.

[Loss]

Miz/Kingston was a pretty good little match on RAW tonight, even though they didn't really have the crowd. No one really had the crowd all night, though.

 

For all the talk of Smackdown just getting enough people to keep them strong enough to tour, I think they came out ahead in this draft. Jericho, Rey, and Punk mixed in with Edge and Jeff already there, and Kane joining Undertaker, means lots of fresh matchups, and also lots of potential top feuds. HHH, Orton, Batista, Michaels, and Cena on RAW, while I like some of them just fine, is very same old, same old.

[BruiserBrody]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD5iayp7uKw

 

Seeing this 1988 home tour of Verne Gagne having a "church window" of himself in his home put him over HHH/Hogan on the ego list for me this week

[Cox]

I really enjoyed the Cena/Swagger match from last night, even with the botched floatover DDT spot (and I thought the announcers did a good job covering for it). The first two hours or so had some really good wrestling, although between the pot belly and the balding, it is hard to take Matt Hardy seriously anymore. Without Jeff to feud with and the heel turn not really taking, he could be in a drastically worse spot a year from now, especially on Raw.

[Loss]

You can bet even if they just have a TV match on RAW, HHH will mention both the balding and the pot belly.

 

Matt Hardy is definitely a guy whose body has changed drastically in the wellness era. I looked at a picture of him in 2005 recently, and he barely looked like the same guy.

[khawk20]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD5iayp7uKw

 

Seeing this 1988 home tour of Verne Gagne having a "church window" of himself in his home put him over HHH/Hogan on the ego list for me this week

That was very cool, thanks for the link. Had never seen that bit before. The stained glass window was pretty bizarre.

 

If it's any consolation to you I bet he had to sell it a few years later when the AWA went tits-up on him.

[tlk23]

With WWE Superstars premiering tomorrow night on WGN, the WWE now has a show on four of the five weekdays with the only open day being Wednesday. With TNA having two hours on Thursday and with at least two 3-hour PPV's a month and MMA, is it just too much. I know that I have rarely every watched Smackdown, because I don't usually get the station, but even when I did, I rarely watched it. I never miss RAW because I have watched it since the beginning and it has become a habit. Luckily, I watched a complete episode of ECW for the first time in a while and am glad that I did.

 

So my question is, is it too much? Is it over saturating stuffing instead of potatoes? Next month, there will be 12 days without wrestling on TV/PPV, while there will be 19 days with some sort of original wrestling programing or a total of 40 hours (More than 50 if you count UFC/MMA) of wrestling. If you were to watch it all, it would be like working a 9 to 5 job for a week by just watching wrestling. Thoughts?

[sek69]

It's way down on the list of Vince Quirks, but has anyone figured out why he seems to get off on breaking up tag teams/separating couples via the draft?

[Jingus]

Is there ever a reason? They've done this shit for years, never for any apparent reason. It seems like any time there's any talk about what they plan on doing with any team in the future, it's always some variant on "we're gonna break them up and then push the larger guy in singles".

 

stuffing instead of potatoes

Oh god, please tell me we're not using word filters like that over here.

 

Testing: the product

 

EDIT: aw, apparently poor tlk23 has spent so much time at DVDVR that it's permanently altered his vocabulary.

[Death From Above]

I like both stuffing and potatoes.

[Al]

With WWE Superstars premiering tomorrow night on WGN, the WWE now has a show on four of the five weekdays with the only open day being Wednesday. With TNA having two hours on Thursday and with at least two 3-hour PPV's a month and MMA, is it just too much. I know that I have rarely every watched Smackdown, because I don't usually get the station, but even when I did, I rarely watched it. I never miss RAW because I have watched it since the beginning and it has become a habit. Luckily, I watched a complete episode of ECW for the first time in a while and am glad that I did.

 

So my question is, is it too much? Is it over saturating stuffing instead of potatoes? Next month, there will be 12 days without wrestling on TV/PPV, while there will be 19 days with some sort of original wrestling programing or a total of 40 hours (More than 50 if you count UFC/MMA) of wrestling. If you were to watch it all, it would be like working a 9 to 5 job for a week by just watching wrestling. Thoughts?

It's tricky. Less programming time means less wrestlers needed, and positions are thin as it is. On the other hand, territories had the balance of only being regional, so you only saw 1-2 programs. Maybe if it were wall-to-wall on Saturdays, it'd be easier to digest.

[sek69]

All I know is that when I was a kid I had all the NWA shows on TBS, the WWF /WCCW/UWF syndicated shows, and Prime Time on USA and I never thought it was too much wrestling.

[Indikator]

I try to remember the Monday Night Wars and ECW. With them over, you noticed that pretty much every program had its own fans. Yes, you can hamper the highest possible ratings of a certain program, yet that's rather shortsighted.

I think even the WCW C-Shows had their own legitimity

[kjh]

I think the bigger problem is creative team burnout rather than fan burnout.

[Kronos]

I watched Chris Benoit vs Too Cold Scorpio from SuperBrawl 3 and it was exquisite for the most part. Benoit is four times the wrestler now than he was then, and he is twice the wrestler there then when he was in Stampede, so next year he should disappear in a blinding light of wrestling perfection. Scorpio was flashier then than now, but he wasn't nearly as complete of a wrestler then as he is now. I'm thinking that Benoit has the record of most Timelimit draws that don't end in Timelimit draws in ratio to how many pay per veiws he has appeared in. I need an aspirin now. What was the story behind his first stint in WCW. All I can remember is him saying in an interveiw in I think late 94 that he had no anamosity towards anyone there.

This quote comes from DVDVR #3 -- I quote it not to raise any discussion about Benoit but more to emphasize the amusing line about evolving so quickly. It cracked me up. When did these reviews begin? I am guessing 1998 or so. . .

[S.L.L.]

I watched Chris Benoit vs Too Cold Scorpio from SuperBrawl 3 and it was exquisite for the most part. Benoit is four times the wrestler now than he was then, and he is twice the wrestler there then when he was in Stampede, so next year he should disappear in a blinding light of wrestling perfection. Scorpio was flashier then than now, but he wasn't nearly as complete of a wrestler then as he is now. I'm thinking that Benoit has the record of most Timelimit draws that don't end in Timelimit draws in ratio to how many pay per veiws he has appeared in. I need an aspirin now. What was the story behind his first stint in WCW. All I can remember is him saying in an interveiw in I think late 94 that he had no anamosity towards anyone there.

This quote comes from DVDVR #3 -- I quote it not to raise any discussion about Benoit but more to emphasize the amusing line about evolving so quickly. It cracked me up. When did these reviews begin? I am guessing 1998 or so. . .

 

Around 1996, as I recall.

[jdw]

This was #1:

 

ANTICHRISTO- MEXICO'S ULTIMATE MONSTER HEEL! and other stuff I saw and heard this week

 

Which would be August 14, 1996.

 

The pre-DVDVR's started here:

 

Psicosis wears a wig and other annoying Lucha Libre Conclusions and Questions: One man's veiwing marathon comes to an end..

 

That was about two months ealiers. Looking at what Glenn collected way back when, there were 5 of the pre-DVDVR's.

 

 

John

[Kronos]

Ah-ha! So I was way off. LOL Thanks, guys for clearing it up. I wasn't watching wrestling in the 90's, so it seems like a million years ago -- and a sort of IWC golden age.

[goodhelmet]

Ya know, I think today is the real "golden age" of the internet wrestling community. Maybe not with the current product but with the availability of wrestling. I am sure those that were around remember the era fondly, and even I like to hear the stories and read the threads, but this is the time to be a wrestling fan IF you actually want to see a ton of wrestling at an affordable price. It used to be you would read about matches but they were a pain in the ass to acquire. Now, it is easy as pie to find the matches and from all sorts of promotions. I am loving wrestling right now and love being apart of the various message boards which are far superior to the old RSPW group and out-of-date websites.

[Death From Above]

Ya know, I think today is the real "golden age" of the internet wrestling community. Maybe not with the current product but with the availability of wrestling. I am sure those that were around remember the era fondly, and even I like to hear the stories and read the threads, but this is the time to be a wrestling fan IF you actually want to see a ton of wrestling at an affordable price.

When I think about how much money I burned in the early days of the "hey copying DVD's is now possible and VHS trading is dead" days, and how far it would go now... well, I have some lovely early decade NOAH shows in perfect VQ and all, but Jesus. That doesn't even touch what Japanese shows on VHS once were going for to people who didn't know where or how to shop around when getting hold of them really was like some sort of "buried treasure from an alternate dimension" thing (never mind trying to find sources that had VQ that would be close to top notch today). I know probably I sound like a grumpy old bastard (I'm really not I think the current scene is great if you are a fan), but I think a lot of the online wrestling fans that have come along the last 5 years or so really don't appreciate how much easier they have it now. It's very easy now to ingest any style of wrestling you want, in large doses, very quickly.

 

I think if the actual in ring product was in as good a shape as the IWC is these days, we'd all have very little to complain about. I find the (right) message boards are these days the best part of wrestling for me. I barely watch anymore but I still am fascinated enough by the business that I talk it pretty much daily.

 

I guess I think the concept of pro wrestling is better than the execution. I'm like a science professor: no field work, all theory.

[Al]

Great point, and really even Youtube has made it ridiculously easy. I want to check out that MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana match that Loss loved? Available on demand.

[Kronos]

Great point, and really even Youtube has made it ridiculously easy. I want to check out that MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana match that Loss loved? Available on demand.

That's just what I was going to say in response to Will's point, which makes more sense than mine. I discovered tape trading about a year ago (I know, I am a lightweight ). And I am currently collecting what and when I can. But these days, Dailymotion and Youtube make it almost -- but by no means completely -- unnecessary to collect DVDs just to see the bigger matches (and many rare ones). And with sites like vodpod, you can consolidate them all into an easily searchable private or public database.

 

It is a good time to be a wrestling fan from this point of view, especially if your tastes are so broad that they shift by the day.