Comments that don't warrant a thread

[Beast]

It is the announcer's job to know what the match is trying to accomplish, and also not undercut the match. And Gorilla pointing things out that don't make sense to him is a bad trait that actively takes away from him being a good announcer, and undercuts a match.

Yeah, I know, I said as much. Probably since Gorilla had that Job For Life spot, he didn't give a fuck if he was following the rules and was sometimes out there to just amuse himself or put himself over. (The few Monsoon matches I've seen would actually corroborate that attitude, since he was one of those heels who tended to be kind of a dick when it came to cutting off the babyface's offense too soon and too often.)

 

And I know WWE is full of detail freaks, but I don't see a booker specifically calling for 10 punches in the corner in the middle of a match on an MSG house show in a midcard match. It's more likely a spot called by Jake mid-match, and the ref in turn tried to make himself look like a tough guy.

With a spot like that, with the referee actually picking Jake up physically, it was most likely Jake himself who called it. Most wrestlers would turn around and punch a ref who did that outta nowhere, it would be considered shooting on them.

 

I understand liking childhood favorites, and think it's cool, and one of the great things about being a wrestling fan. But if that's what it is, no problem in saying so, instead of making the focus on Gorilla's bad bifocals.

Childhood favorites? I didn't start watching wrestling until 1999. All my fanboyism has been gained by greatly enjoying his work in hindsight and on video tape.

 

One more Gorilla point: During Savage/Steamboat at Wrestlemania III, he goes into this little tangent about how the referee may disqualify Savage for throwing a "deliberate" clothesline. Jesse responded and said of course, it was deliberate, and asked Gorilla if he thinks he clotheslined him by accident. Gorilla responded that referees disqualify wrestlers for intentionally trying to put guys out of commission. News to me ...

Yeah, that's another fault of his, sometimes Gorilla would get stuck on one point and simply not let it go and insist on getting in the last word. Hey, like me! No wonder I like him so much.

 

Also, does it bug anyone else that 80s WWF matches were always laid out with a ref bump where the heel would get the visual fall after the ref bump instead of the babyface? Meaning the heel comes out looking like the moral victor?

Ref bumps and visual falls in general bug me, since it seems like every time a ref gets bumped then almost instantly afterwards someone has someone else covered for about a ten-count. American wrestling tends to be real lazy about that, how a ref always Just So Happens to get bumped right before something important happens. Vince Russo is probably the worst abuser of this, as the workers always have psychic powers which let them know that the match won't end before the ref bump so that they have an opportunity to interfere or turn on someone or whatever.

 

Just my opinion, but even as I've grown older and looked back on the Monsoon announcing with more mature ears, I still find myself liking him. The things you don't like I find endearing. I like announcers calling the action from an unbiased logical POV. Jesse usually did this best, like when he would call Hogan out on his BS and make Vince look foolish trying to cover up Hogan's actions. I never saw this as Gorilla trying to get himself over, to me he was like Solie, acting as a legit announcer calling a legit sport. I liked when he would call a wrestler out on not hooking the leg or other things of that nature. It made everything seem more realistic.

[Matt D]

It's interesting how different announcers dealt with Jesse's points. Whenever he'd point out a double standard, Vince would just stutter and say something.. "Well, I guess we just have to disagree." or "That's not it at all!" And then not back it up at all. Tony just got steamrolled by him when they were together at PPVs in the late 80s.

[Bob Morris]

I found the Vince-Jesse tandem to work better before Vince started to decline as an announcer. In the earlier years, Vince tended to be a little more down the middle and not a "rah-rah" announcer, even with Hogan. As the years went by, Vince is finding himself having a harder time explaining Hogan's actions.

 

The perfect example is the SNME set and the Hogan-Harley Race match. The storyline that should obviously be told is that Hogan is still livid over what went down in his previous match with Andre, so upset that he takes it out on Race. Vince could have easily taken the stance that he didn't agree with Hogan's antics, but he could understand that Hogan was upset, which would have made for a better back-and-forth between him and Jesse, as Jesse couldn't just simply declare Vince justifying Hogan's action because "Hogan is your favorite."

 

EDIT: In watching some of the 90's WCW matches, I found Jesse and Jim Ross to be a good duo... if Jesse pointed out a face was bending the rules, Jim generally acknowledged it point blank.

[jdw]

Gorilla was just horrible. It's night and day between Vince calling MSG solo and Gorilla joining him and then Gorrilla getting partners. Vince was awesome back before expansion.

 

There's plenty of campy old "Good-Bad" announcing in the 80s from the WWF. Dick Graham & Kal Rudman on PRISM is probably the best "bad" announcing combo that I've ever heard. So if the argument for Gorilla is that he's great bad campy fun, I'd far prefer to listen to Dick & Kal. If the argument is that he actually effectively calls matches, I tend to think that's pretty laughable compared to Vince in his pre-Expansion prime. If it's that he gets across storylines and brings enthusiasm to the matches he calls, I don't think he does it better than expansion Vince did with Ventura... and I'm not a massive fan of Ventura.

 

John

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Am I the only one who really liked the Schiavone/Ventura team? While I'd never say that he was better than JR, I thought Tony had better chemistry with Jesse. I'm a Heenan fan but WCW announcing took a step down when he joined.

[sek69]

I don't see how anyone can say pre-expansion Vince was a good announcer. In those 70s WWWF shows that pop up on 24/7 there's just huge gaps where he's silent and it's almost like watching a film of old wrestling. When he does talk he's pretty good at conveying the action, he actually comes off as a young Gordon Solie type, but there's way too much dead air going on. I wonder if Vince Sr. was in the headset yelling in his ear. That'd be pretty ironic.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Monsoon and Ventura were more often than not fabulous together. They were never doing a "we can't stand each other" deal. And Ventura was not over the top praising the heels and Monsoon wasn't over the top praising the babyfaces. And they always seemed to like each other. It was a great announcing team. Granted I got to hear them a hell of a lot on MSG and shit and not just PPV's.

 

And I know it's been said and take it for what you will, but Vince made every match seem important when he was announcing. That was good shit.

[kjh]

I don't see how anyone can say pre-expansion Vince was a good announcer. In those 70s WWWF shows that pop up on 24/7 there's just huge gaps where he's silent and it's almost like watching a film of old wrestling. When he does talk he's pretty good at conveying the action, he actually comes off as a young Gordon Solie type, but there's way too much dead air going on. I wonder if Vince Sr. was in the headset yelling in his ear. That'd be pretty ironic.

Personally I think it was a good thing that Vince knew when to keep quiet and let the action speak for itself. Do we really need an announcer to blabber on continuously even if they have nothing informative to say?

[khawk20]

I don't see how anyone can say pre-expansion Vince was a good announcer. In those 70s WWWF shows that pop up on 24/7 there's just huge gaps where he's silent and it's almost like watching a film of old wrestling. When he does talk he's pretty good at conveying the action, he actually comes off as a young Gordon Solie type, but there's way too much dead air going on. I wonder if Vince Sr. was in the headset yelling in his ear. That'd be pretty ironic.

Some of us appreciate the days of the singular announcer. In today's sports announcing field (with thepossible exception of soccer), there is always someone talking, and quite often about things totally unrelated to the action.

 

I preferred the days when the announcer called the action and didn't feel the need to "fill the holes" when nothing signifigant was going on. In wrestling, Vince at MSG was like that. Okerlund, Kent, and Tronngard were like that in the AWA (pre 1986-ish. Thinking of the old St. Paul Arena JIP's they used to broadcast on the TV shows).

 

As a slightly different, non-wrestling example, look at the old pre-game half-hour shows that CBS used to run before Sunday Afternoon Football. Musburger, Cross, George and Jimmy the Greek. They each did their own thing, didn't swing off on wild tangents unrelated to the games at hand, and all were able to convey their points and thoughts without getting drawn into a vortex of strange, inane conversation that may or may not be related to their own points. The 90 minute pre-game shows now seem to have twice the people talking but only half the useful information conveyed to the audience.

 

Maybe it's just me, but more isn't always better when it comes to announcing and commentating.

[sek69]

I'm not saying single announcers are bad, nor that they should be blabbering non stop, but Vince would be silent for extremely long stretches to the point where I was wondering if there was some sort of problem with his microphone. He's be quiet for over half of a 20 minute match. There's a difference between knowing when to shut up and someone staying silent because they don't have anything to say.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

I'm not saying single announcers are bad, nor that they should be blabbering non stop, but Vince would be silent for extremely long stretches to the point where I was wondering if there was some sort of problem with his microphone. He's be quiet for over half of a 20 minute match. There's a difference between knowing when to shut up and someone staying silent because they don't have anything to say.

David Crockett should've studied some tapes of Vince announcing from MSG shows pre expansion. He's a guy that didn't know when to shut up and never realized that yelling "Watch him now!!!!" or "Ohhhhh! Ohhhhhh! What's this?!?!?!" for no apparent reason dtracted from the product.

[Log]

I don't see how anyone can say pre-expansion Vince was a good announcer. In those 70s WWWF shows that pop up on 24/7 there's just huge gaps where he's silent and it's almost like watching a film of old wrestling. When he does talk he's pretty good at conveying the action, he actually comes off as a young Gordon Solie type, but there's way too much dead air going on. I wonder if Vince Sr. was in the headset yelling in his ear. That'd be pretty ironic.

Some of us appreciate the days of the singular announcer. In today's sports announcing field (with thepossible exception of soccer), there is always someone talking, and quite often about things totally unrelated to the action.

 

I preferred the days when the announcer called the action and didn't feel the need to "fill the holes" when nothing signifigant was going on. In wrestling, Vince at MSG was like that. Okerlund, Kent, and Tronngard were like that in the AWA (pre 1986-ish. Thinking of the old St. Paul Arena JIP's they used to broadcast on the TV shows).

 

As a slightly different, non-wrestling example, look at the old pre-game half-hour shows that CBS used to run before Sunday Afternoon Football. Musburger, Cross, George and Jimmy the Greek. They each did their own thing, didn't swing off on wild tangents unrelated to the games at hand, and all were able to convey their points and thoughts without getting drawn into a vortex of strange, inane conversation that may or may not be related to their own points. The 90 minute pre-game shows now seem to have twice the people talking but only half the useful information conveyed to the audience.

 

Maybe it's just me, but more isn't always better when it comes to announcing and commentating.

 

I couldn't agree with this more. I have this whole theory that expanded sports coverage is actually killing good sports commentary. Back in the day, you had only a couple games a week on television. You only needed a handful of announcers, so the talent pool wasn't spread as thin as it is today. Now, you've got ESPN's D, E, or F team calling games, and some of those guys (and girls) have no business on tv.

 

As far as guys not blabbing on to fill holes, I always loved Jack Buck for not doing that. I mostly heard him on the radio, and he'd really let stuff breathe. Sports commentary lost a lot the day he died.

[jdw]

I don't see how anyone can say pre-expansion Vince was a good announcer. In those 70s WWWF shows that pop up on 24/7 there's just huge gaps where he's silent and it's almost like watching a film of old wrestling. When he does talk he's pretty good at conveying the action, he actually comes off as a young Gordon Solie type, but there's way too much dead air going on. I wonder if Vince Sr. was in the headset yelling in his ear. That'd be pretty ironic.

 

I love the silence. I don't think an announcer needs to be talking for 30 straight minutes over Backlund vs Muraco. I like hearing the sounds of the arena, the fans, the wrestlers, the ring... without in being one giant mix of noise tossed at you.

 

I think Vince did a great job of calling the action, the holds, the storylines and the development of the matches. He was willing to put over the skill of the heels. He brought plenty of passion to the table, but without it being overplayed like it's gotten in the 90s and 00s (including by Vince during the expansion).

 

John

[jdw]

I'm not saying single announcers are bad, nor that they should be blabbering non stop, but Vince would be silent for extremely long stretches to the point where I was wondering if there was some sort of problem with his microphone. He's be quiet for over half of a 20 minute match. There's a difference between knowing when to shut up and someone staying silent because they don't have anything to say.

I'd be surprised if Vince shut up for two minutes straight in a matches. I doubt if you took a good 20-30 Backlund match and times all the spots where Vince shut up for 30 straight seconds (and "extremely long stretch") and added them together, you wouldn't get half the match. Or even close to it.

 

Shutting up for 10 seconds isn't a bad thing.

 

John

[Loss]

This subject reminds me of Jim Ross being very annoying with his hoarse nonstop screaming during Benoit/Guerrero WM XX post-match.

 

I think in sek's defense, he is thinking more of early 70s Vince, like that June '73 show from MSG that is on 24/7.

 

He may not say the same about late 70s/early 80s WWF announcing. Or he might, I'm not sure, but I think he's mentioned the June '73 MSG show before as being such long periods of time with no talking.

 

To tie this into modern conversation, I really think Vince should start announcing on Raw. It *might* have an indirect affect on ratings, and he tends to be so angry with the announcers all the time that it would allow him the chance to just announce the way he thinks it should be done and not give poor announcers near heart attacks by screaming in their ears for two hours every week. Pair him with Lawler, who he likes, and ditch Michael Cole.

 

Even if Vince has deteriorated greatly, which I imagine he has, it would probably still be an improvement. I also think there's the added benefit of him having to justify or explain all of his storylines, which could *possibly* make him care more about continuity when he's put in the position of having to sell things that don't make sense.

 

WWE's old strengths of building to the big moment, first-rate hype, and nice easy to follow storylines built around maybe one or two twists maximum seem to have fallen by the wayside. Part of that is Vince going crazy, and I think part of that is him either acting as an on-screen character or producing constantly for the last decade, to a point where he probably hasn't just watched one of his own shows in a long time.

[ohtani's jacket]

Am I the only one who really liked the Schiavone/Ventura team? While I'd never say that he was better than JR, I thought Tony had better chemistry with Jesse. I'm a Heenan fan but WCW announcing took a step down when he joined.

Tony and Jesse were brilliant together. In fact, Tony smoked Jim Ross in the early 90s.

 

I dunno what happened to Heenan in WCW. It was as if he stopped being funny. I don't think it helped that he came on board at the same time that Hogan and Flair were feuding, but says a lot about his chemistry with Monsoon that his whole shtick fell on its ass in WCW.

 

I'll tell you who's a shitty commentator and that's Akira Fukuzawa. Think clueless colour guy.

[Tim Evans]

To be fair, Heenan started going downhill around 93 in WWF.

[jdw]

I think in sek's defense, he is thinking more of early 70s Vince, like that June '73 show from MSG that is on 24/7.

 

He may not say the same about late 70s/early 80s WWF announcing. Or he might, I'm not sure, but I think he's mentioned the June '73 MSG show before as being such long periods of time with no talking.

1973 is like the dawn of calling house shows for the WWF. It really isn't anything to judge Vince on except to comp with later Vince: pre-Expansion Vince, Expansion Vince, Raw Era Vince.

 

Vince by the time of the Backlund-Valentine draw was a strong announcer. By the following year with the Patera matches, he was flat out fantastic for the era.

 

John

[khawk20]

I dunno what happened to Heenan in WCW. It was as if he stopped being funny. I don't think it helped that he came on board at the same time that Hogan and Flair were feuding, but says a lot about his chemistry with Monsoon that his whole shtick fell on its ass in WCW.

heenan didn't care anymore. WCW gave him no reason to care, they just paid him big bucks and confused him with suggestions of how they wanted his commentating to come across. he elaborates more in his book (or his shoot, can't remember which).

 

But WCW being such a clusterfuck gave him little reason to do more than show up for his paycheck is the bottom line.

[Log]

I'll tell you who's a shitty commentator and that's Akira Fukuzawa. Think clueless colour guy.

I've always wondered if Japanese commentators were really good, or what. Not speaking the language and all, I can't tell. Which promotion would you say has the best commentators in Japan?

[jdw]

I'll tell you who's a shitty commentator and that's Akira Fukuzawa. Think clueless colour guy.

Matter of taste? The liason we had in the department from the parent company in the early 90s loved Fukuzawa. Of course my co-worker was a Kawada Fan and thought the other play-by-play people sucked Misawa's balls a bit too much. But he also was a big Choshu fan going back to the turn on Fujinami, so he followed both promotions and listened to all of the announcer of the 80s and 90s. He still fondly recalls Fukuzawa to the point that in our conversations after Misawa's death he brought up Fukuzawa's name calling old Misawa-Kawada battles.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

I'll tell you who's a shitty commentator and that's Akira Fukuzawa. Think clueless colour guy.

I've always wondered if Japanese commentators were really good, or what. Not speaking the language and all, I can't tell. Which promotion would you say has the best commentators in Japan?

 

If my Japanese ever improves, I'll let you know.

 

The impression I have is that a lot of them were NTV, Asahi and Fuji TV guys who didn't exactly have the authority of a Kent Walton. Fukuzawa screamed play-by-play and didn't provide much in the way of psych. John's colleague would know better than me, I still think about all the Japanese I hear in English. Maybe it sounds better to a native speaker, but the stuff Fukuzawa says reminds me of Japanese soccer commentary, where they scream as soon as the ball is anywhere near the goal area.

[Loss]

From the Takashi Matsunaga bio in the WON:

 

Matsumoto was followed by Keiko “Bull” Nakano, who was something of the Jumbo Tsuruta of women’s wrestling, a stellar athlete fantastic worker who was a top star, but didn’t have quite the charisma to set business records.

It seems weird to say a screaming, face-painted woman with hair that was two feet tall lacked charisma.

[ohtani's jacket]

Matsunaga died?

 

Dave's sentence should read "didn't have the TV to set business records."

[kjh]

Or the right opponent to be able to set business records.