Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists

[Victator]

And their gripes are more valid. Gabe needs to shut up.

[Bix]

I believe that DSE was suing RF over Zero One footage as well, FWIW.

 

I also get the feeling that Gabe saying 2001 was when he became an "employee" of RF Video is a technicality. He was shooting the Fancams for years and those generally benefitted RF Video, not ECW, who got a small flat fee and very occasionally used the house show footage on TV. Would he really do that without being paid by RF? Plus, IIRC, "Fan Cam Guy" was treated as a RF staff member on their hotline, not someone from the ECW office.

 

One thing I'd like to know is when the print RF Video catalog was abandoned and all that stuff was purged from the website. At least they were mostly down to stuff they owned/licensed, Japan, and territories once they did that.

 

And their gripes are more valid. Gabe needs to shut up.

Right, it would be much different coming from one of the DGUSA/Evolve wrestlers or someone like Sal Hamaoui.

 

Here's what Gabe should have said: "Look, you're right. RF Video was built on bootlegging, ECW, and shoot interviews, but it was mostly ECW and generally* we weren't depriving anyone of business because the bootlegs were from international promotions not doing business here and dead territories. It's a different time with different technology and business models. Bootlegging and piracy do a lot more damage now, especially to smaller promotions."

 

*Bob Barnett being the big exception.

 

That would be a reasonable way to address the criticism. Instead, he comes off as overly defensive, in denial, and hypocritical.

[kjh]

So because 10 years ago he joined a company that bootleged videos which he hasn't worked for in 7 years that means he should be ok with pirating now in 2011 and beyond?

It means he should shut up about it. He has made more money from piracy than every uploader on PWT combined.

 

It's not just Gabe that gets screwed over when everyone steals their stuff. The indy workers not making any money to begin with aren't benefiting from everybody being too cheap to pay to support their efforts.

I didn't realise Gabe was running a cooperative/profit sharing scheme? The whole "I'm doing it for the boys" schtick seems more to be a way of guilt tripping pirates to see the error of their ways to pad his bottom line than to genuinely boost his workers pay. I know that's cynical but we are talking about a wrestling promoter who had no qualms about bootlegging in the past.

[rovert]

I didn't realise Gabe was running a cooperative/profit sharing scheme?

Feinstein used share his Lamborghini with Axl, Guido and EZ Money, Keith.

[Mad Dog]

Call me crazy but maybe DGUSA should sell their DVDs at a competitive price with other wrestling promotions.

 

Chikara seems to be doing just fine and I know their product gets pirated. But then, their DVDs are $15 while the DGUSA DVDs are $20. And they also have a better product and have developed a loyal fanbase that wants to support the company. It kind of comes off as sour grapes because DGUSA has really fallen flat.

[jdw]

So the folks on The Board who think it's okay to pirate Gabe's stuff would think that it's okay for people to pirate Bryan and Dave's stuff that's behind the firewall and instantly make it widely and easily available to the public for free?

 

I've always been pretty strongly against people doing that to Dave's stuff. But if the arguments being made in this thread that are drawing a link between Gabe and what RF Video did a decade or so again, then there is the matter of Dave tape selling/trading not just puroresu by US wrestling back in the early 80s, along with allowing other people to advertise in the WON such things well into the 90s.

 

I've never bought that as a reasonable justification for ripping off Dave's stuff. But we're talking apples and apples here... well, maybe not since it was actually *Dave* doing that tape stuff, rather than in Gabe's case the company he worked for (RF Video).

 

Do the Board folks who are slagging Gabe get that? You think Bryan would be happy with folks giving away his stuff for free as soon as it went up (which would be exceptionally easy to do)?

 

John

[rovert]

John no one is saying it is ok or Gabe is wrong for speaking out.

 

Going strictly on this interview Gabe took no responsibility for his own strategic or creative mistakes. No mention was made of own background coming from the largest "analogue" Pro Wrestling pirate of its time. Then on the board he played a weird dishonest game trying to portray he started working for RF in 2001 when he is all over ECW fancams, shoot interviews etc.

[Mad Dog]

I don't pirate any wrestling. I'm not for it.

 

I just think Gabe is going after that as an excuse for his failures with both promotions. As I mentioned earlier, Chikara seems to be doing just fine despite people pirating their stuff. But then again, Chikara is a better product. My other point is that DGUSA is like the last hold out on wanting $20 for a DVD and that hurts them. I don't buy many DVDs at $20 anymore, I do buy DVDs at $15 though. Maybe Gabe should consider selling his DVDs at a market competitive price and he might sell more.

[FLIK]

$20 for 1 DVD is really steep but they are constantly running sales so it's pretty easy to buy them for less then full price

 

I believe that DSE was suing RF over Zero One footage as well, FWIW

They were going after lots of traders back then. I still remember Lynch having to be all hush hush about selling Z1 shows for a while, having to send out seperate list and stuff like that.

[Mad Dog]

I really wanted to like DGUSA but it really feels like Gabe has missed the point of what makes the actual Dragon Gate promotion fun. Plus, his booking has just been incompetent as he pretty much only uses the Japanese wrestlers in title matches. I think there's a reason it's failed, it's been poorly marketed and it's booked poorly. Honestly, the only times I heard about it are when Mike Quackenbush would mention wrestling for them on the Grizzly Bear Egg Cafe podcast.

[Sean Liska]

So because 10 years ago he joined a company that bootleged videos which he hasn't worked for in 7 years that means he should be ok with pirating now in 2011 and beyond?

It means he should shut up about it. He has made more money from piracy than every uploader on PWT combined.

 

It's not just Gabe that gets screwed over when everyone steals their stuff. The indy workers not making any money to begin with aren't benefiting from everybody being too cheap to pay to support their efforts.

I didn't realise Gabe was running a cooperative/profit sharing scheme? The whole "I'm doing it for the boys" schtick seems more to be a way of guilt tripping pirates to see the error of their ways to pad his bottom line than to genuinely boost his workers pay. I know that's cynical but we are talking about a wrestling promoter who had no qualms about bootlegging in the past.

 

So you don't think the average indy wrestler's earnings are affected by widespread internet piracy?

[MJH]

I doubt most indies have a royalties scheme.

[Sean Liska]

You really think indy wrestlers are going to be unaffected by the fact that these companies are having such a difficult making money?

[FLIK]

I doubt most indies have a royalties scheme.

Heh funny story

I forget if it was London or Kendrik but in their shoot one of them actually did mention getting a royalty check for his DG apperances though it was only for a tiny ass amount

 

You really think indy wrestlers are going to be unaffected by the fact that these companies are having such a difficult making money?

In his interview Gabe did specifically mention he had a conversation with one of the wrestlers recently about how 2 years ago he'd have been able to pay him $300 per night but now he can only afford $100 and talked about how if he's running a Fri/Sat/Sun triple shot, $900 is a lot better motivator for a guy to go out and bust ass then $300

[KrisZ]

Look at how exciting the indies were 10 years ago and look at them now and you see why there are a lot of promotions in trouble.

[Loss]

Very few indies are content to be indies, which I think is part of the issue. Piracy contributes to it also, but the idea that you can operate regionally and market yourselves nationally is only going to last so long, right?

[KrisZ]

That's why NWA Anarchy has lasted so long and done so well. They have their one city they run bi-weekly and draw pretty good plus they have had TV for a while and get money off of that while selling DVD's and putting stuff online themselves on YouTube.

[Bix]

Also, it's worth pointing out that Evolve at least hasn't drawn live and Gabe has no idea what to do as a promoter.

 

After one of Mike O'Brien's NEW shows sold out the Mid-Hudson Civic Center in Poughkeepsie, NY (old Championship Wrestling and Raw venue) in large part due to some local dude who worked the show, Gabe and Sal Ran a FIP (Sal's Florida based promotion that never really drew well anyway) show there for some reason.

 

They promoted it online, and it drew 30 people. Left to his own devices, Gabe's pretty much epitomizes the only Shirley Doe quote about how every indy promoter thinks they'll draw because fans will somehow find out through the general consciousness of humankind (or whatever it was).

 

Hell, NYWC, who Gabe works with locally for his NY shows, has done the same thing. They've run shows within walking distance of my house on several occasions. I'd never see any kind of flyers or other ads around. I found out about the first show days before it took place via WO.com, the second show from their website, and the third show years later I think from WO.com again. And they always complained about not drawing.

[rovert]

Heh funny story

I forget if it was London or Kendrik but in their shoot one of them actually did mention getting a royalty check for his DG apperances though it was only for a tiny ass amount

It was a running joke on Paul's youtube channel.

 

He took bottles to the bottle bank and said he earned more money.

 

 

Call me crazy but maybe DGUSA should sell their DVDs at a competitive price with other wrestling promotions.

 

Chikara seems to be doing just fine and I know their product gets pirated. But then, their DVDs are $15 while the DGUSA DVDs are $20. And they also have a better product and have developed a loyal fanbase that wants to support the company. It kind of comes off as sour grapes because DGUSA has really fallen flat.

It is kind of hard not to portray Quackenbush as some entitled rich kid when talking about him. But the impression I get which is heck from everything Chikara does and communicates is that Quack is very well connected along with having a committed "staff" that comes from the hard working hustling DIY culture. Gabe in 2011 just seems to be a guy operating out of his suitcase/bedroom.

[Bix]

While it's not an obscene amount of money, DGUSA/Evolve/RIP and ROH have an additional cost over other indies in that they have to pay in advance for DVDs to be pressed instead of duplicating DVD-Rs themselves.

[sek69]

Does it strike anyone else as odd that anyone in 2011 would be counting on DVD sales as the make or break revenue stream? Even the music industry, not known as being on the cutting edge of technology has largely given up on physical media for digital downloads. Of course that was largely due to Apple dragging them kicking and screaming with iTunes, but still.

 

Shouldn't small promotions be focused on filling their venues and leave DVD sales for the merch tables?

[Indikator]

Filling the venues stopped being the most relevant thing in the 80s with increasing renting costs and no more $$$ through local tv. As soon as wrestling, on a worldwide scale, gets the benefits of internet on demand things might look up a lot. I sometimes wonder if ECW would have survived in a DVD era

[Mad Dog]

I think the other problem with indies is you an only see the same 20-30 guys shuffled around so many times before it starts to get boring. I think that's another big flaw to DGUSA and Evolve to a lesser extent. All of those guys are native to other promotions and are made more compelling by more competent bookers than Gabe.

[Cox]

Filling the venues stopped being the most relevant thing in the 80s with increasing renting costs and no more $$$ through local tv. As soon as wrestling, on a worldwide scale, gets the benefits of internet on demand things might look up a lot. I sometimes wonder if ECW would have survived in a DVD era

I think this is completely false. The smaller the scale of the operation, the more these indy companies need to rely on ticket sales to make a profit, because frankly, there aren't as many avenues for profit as there would be on a national level. Gabe's biggest problem is that he has two companies that nobody wants to pay to see, either live or on DVD. If he ran better shows, he'd fill more venues, he'd sell more DVDs, he'd make more money. And if his break even point is such that he will operate at a loss even if he fills his buildings and needs DVD sales to turn a profit, then there is something wrong with his business model. This isn't ROH in 2004. What worked then will not work now (if it even worked then).

[sek69]

Yeah, I think what rubs people the wrong way about Gabe's argument is that it's very similar to the music industry blaming all their ills on piracy without considering for a second it might be at least partly due to a product no one is interested in. If the latest pop fad's album sells less than the last one, it must be because of dirty pirates and not from people being disinterested.

 

Not to diminish piracy as a legit concern, but as someone who follows music or gaming can tell you, it quickly becomes a catch-all excuse for everything. In fact, in the cases of music and games there have been several studies done that revealed actual piracy was far less than the official governing bodies claimed their was.