Best worker of the last 20 years

[Kadaveri]

2 hours ago, FMKK said:

Like it or not, the job is to get over with the audience who pay to watch the show, not with PWO.

I'm very sceptical of the notion that a Brooklyn PPV crowd is representative of the general WWE audience however.

[sek69]

3 minutes ago, Kadaveri said:

I'm very sceptical of the notion that a Brooklyn PPV crowd is representative of the general WWE audience however.

Possibly,  but it was the audience they were in front of that night and they didn't care for it.  

People get annoyed because it's one of his go-to lines when responding to the disingenuous trolls, but Dave is 100% right when he says if something gets over with the crowd it was presented to, it works. That night it didn't get over, so it didn't work. You may not like it,  *I* may not like it, but it's what happened. 

[Kadaveri]

I don't think that logic works in this era where drawing a live crowd isn't the main goal like it used to be. There's also the much larger audience watching on TV/Network to consider, and what do you do when your data shows what's over with them isn't necessarily reflected by fans who buy tickets for big shows?

I think this has been a big issue for WWE for a while now, the fans who buy tickets to TV tapings/PPVs are increasingly a small subset of the overall fandom. You could see that when John Cena was getting overwhelmingly booed on every big show, while at the same time pulling all the biggest TV ratings, selling the most merchandise and never got booed at house shows. You have to choose which set of fans to cater to.

[Jmare007]

Anyone can find a match good/great even if it didn't get over, just as anyone can find a match bad/terrible even if it had the crowd going nuts. The point of a Hollywood movie is to make money and tons of people find Fast & Furious flicks horrible (even though a huge portion love them and has made it one of the most profitable franchises ever), just as a ton people find movies that bombed at the box office, "classics".

I also loved the Miz/Bryan match at Summerslam and there's no question it had a dead crowd, it didn't take my enjoyment of it though. Bryan vs Gulak also had a lackluster reaction (which was funny to me, such an odd match for a 2020 WWE crowd and it showed) and that was fucking awesome. AJ vs Bryan at the Rumble was their worst match against each other I think, but it wasn't bad...and the crowd was fucking dead.

 

Anyway, if we are throwing love for top 10 people in the last 20 years then Daisuke Sekimoto better get some damn recognition in this thread. Co-sign the Togo love too.

[SmoothS]

Bryan Danielson/Daniel Bryan, AJ Styles, Hiroshi Tanahashi, Jun Akiyama, Masato Tanaka, Daisuke Sekimoto, Negro Casas, Dr. Wagner Jr., Chris Hero, Meiko Satomura, Mercedes Martinez, LA Park, Naomichi Marufuji, Rey Mysterio Jr., Katsuhiko Nakajima, Kota Ibushi, & Shingo Takagi all come to mind for being top flight consistent in-ring workers between the 2000's & 2010's. My number one pick would be the great Bryan Danielson/Daniel Bryan himself. It is also AMAZING that he is the greatest worker of the 21st Century, and such a huge portion of his work came while wrestling in the WWE, the most watered down, restricted company possible.

 

 

[C.S.]

1 hour ago, Jmare007 said:

I also loved the Miz/Bryan match at Summerslam and there's no question it had a dead crowd, it didn't take my enjoyment of it though. Bryan vs Gulak also had a lackluster reaction (which was funny to me, such an odd match for a 2020 WWE crowd and it showed) and that was fucking awesome. AJ vs Bryan at the Rumble was their worst match against each other I think, but it wasn't bad...and the crowd was fucking dead. 

Modern WWE PPV crowds are useless barometers anyway. Even the company mocks them with terms like "Bizarro Land." Depending on the town, the "fans" are more inclined to get themselves over and throw beach balls at each other than enjoy the show they paid for and express genuine, heartfelt, honest-to-goodness appreciation for great wrestlers wrestling great matches. They're too cool for that, Brewster!

[cactus]

Yeah, it's Bryan. No question. Guys like Kobashi and Okada have had some elite level stuff in a smaller time frame, but no one has grown and been as much as a consistent worker than Bryan has been over the last 20 years. 

I'd say Cena deserves a shoutout too. His booking might rub some people the wrong way, but as a pure in-ring worker, he's one of the best of all time. 

[ShittyLittleBoots]

It's Daniel Bryan & the #2 isn't very close either.

[FMKK]

8 hours ago, C.S. said:

Modern WWE PPV crowds are useless barometers anyway. Even the company mocks them with terms like "Bizarro Land." Depending on the town, the "fans" are more inclined to get themselves over and throw beach balls at each other than enjoy the show they paid for and express genuine, heartfelt, honest-to-goodness appreciation for great wrestlers wrestling great matches. They're too cool for that, Brewster!

It's genuinely been about three or four years since someone did the beachball bit in a WWE crowd. Most WWE audiences before the pandemic weren't being 'rebellious', they were straight up dead. And really, the relationship with the fans was damaged by the company first and foremost. I find a lot of that smarky shit pretty cringe as well but when other companies manage to get the desired reaction from their audience on a consistent basis, you have to ask why WWE has consistently failed to for years. Blame can't all be placed at the feet of the fans.

[El-P]

Blaming WWE crowds is like blaming the victim. Kinda.

[Boss Rock]

22 hours ago, El-P said:

Also, Kane, post Mania. Awful stuff. Then again, Kane.

Kane is indeed awful, but I thought their Extreme Rules match was way better than it had any right to be. 

[Boss Rock]

I'll also echo the Togo sentiment. He has so many Youtube matches against virtual unknowns in front of maybe 100 people that still have a floor of "pretty good".

[Makai Club #1]

I don't think Bryan had nearly enough of a great 2010s, due to injury, booking, etc, to be considered an undisputed #1. I guess he's like Rey Mysterio in that point of view. He's had some good matches, high level matches like the Sheamus match at ExRules, Cena at Summerslam and the Brock match. But unless you're a rabid fan of his, I don't think there is too much depth there for the aforementioned reasons. 

Cena comes to mind. He doesn't have a strong full decade for both 00s and 10s but I feel like he has a great 06-14 which is enough of a blend to cover the amount of time in question. 

Dick Togo definitely has a shout. I probably need to watch more 00s Togo outside of DDT, if possible, though.

Tanahashi maybe? I think 00s Tanahashi has his flaws, one's that were improved upon later in his career, but he still has some quality matches against Goto and Nagata. Even Muto of all people.

Okada would be my #1 for the last decade but with the 00s being his YL run, albeit with a few good matches, but he has no chance I'm afraid. 

 

[SmartMark15]

31 minutes ago, Makai Club #1 said:

But unless you're a rabid fan of his, I don't think there is too much depth there for the aforementioned reasons.

I don't know how one can say there was no depth. He consistently made much more of angles given to him than anyone expected, never faltered in the ring, and when given the opportunity always rose to the occasion as a top level main eventer. If anything, the outstanding circumstances of his career make him more impressive as he's somehow managed to rise above absurd obstacles.

[FMKK]

He still spent a good 3-4 years of the 10s on the shelf though

[ShittyLittleBoots]

I would say that Bryan's weakest year is 2011, but even in that one he has some of the best WWE matches of that year in the MITB & the Steel Cage vs. Henry + a bunch of very good TV-gems versus the likes of McIntyre, Del Rio etc.

He didn't wrestle a single match for almost 3 years, sure, but what he did every time he was/has been active, is way more than enough for him to be #1, imo. Even right now in 2020 he is the clear WOTY in my eyes w/ the #2 (Moxley) not being particularly close. Every year since 2001 he has at least one top-tier MOTYC (most years way more than one, too) & then a bunch of great matches, and that's quite something when you realize it's 2020 now.

[cactus]

Bryan definitely spent the first few years of his run adjusting to the WWE style. He might of missed a few years because of injury, but I still don't think it should disqualify him from the discussion. There's only a handful of wrestlers who have been both active every year of the last twenty and also been consistently good. Akiyama is the only one that comes to mind, actually. 

[Makai Club #1]

2 hours ago, SmartMark15 said:

I don't know how one can say there was no depth. He consistently made much more of angles given to him than anyone expected, never faltered in the ring, and when given the opportunity always rose to the occasion as a top level main eventer. If anything, the outstanding circumstances of his career make him more impressive as he's somehow managed to rise above absurd obstacles.

Saying that isn't too much depth isn't the same as saying that there is no depth. That'd be a lie from my POV. He still has a few great years where his output was really good (2012, 2013, 2018) which is still a lot. 

And making the best out of garbage tv and writing is all well and good. However it's still something that I've never been into, and doubt that I will ever watch again, as far as the angles go. So I can't honestly say that helps his case as far as I'm concerned. 

 

He's still in the top 5, just not #1. Or at least decisively. I'd have to really think about how I compare his peak years to the others I mentioned.  

[kas]

I prefer Tanahashi's peak over Bryan's, but Bryan has been in the conversation for best in the world since about 02/03. I lean ever so slightly more towards Tanahashi. 

[FMKK]

2 hours ago, ShittyLittleBoots said:

I would say that Bryan's weakest year is 2011, but even in that one he has some of the best WWE matches of that year in the MITB & the Steel Cage vs. Henry + a bunch of very good TV-gems versus the likes of McIntyre, Del Rio etc.

He didn't wrestle a single match for almost 3 years, sure, but what he did every time he was/has been active, is way more than enough for him to be #1, imo. Even right now in 2020 he is the clear WOTY in my eyes w/ the #2 (Moxley) not being particularly close. Every year since 2001 he has at least one top-tier MOTYC (most years way more than one, too) & then a bunch of great matches, and that's quite something when you realize it's 2020 now.

I really don't see any argument for Bryan as wrestler of the year in 2020 so far honestly. Maybe top ten but I think Omega, Okada, Ospreay, ZSJ, Miyahara and Shingo are a fair bit ahead of him. I love Bryan, I really do, but I think there's a tendency to overrate everything he does nowadays because he's a beloved figure and he's surrounded by a sea of shit in WWE. What's the case for him this year really built on, two Gulak matches and the Styles match from yesterday? That's a bit slim imo. In fact, I'd go as far to say that Bryan has had at best a mixed return to the ring since 2018. There have been flashes of greatness in some matches but also pretty long stretches of nothingness that, while they're the fault of the booking and the environment rather than the performer, can't really be ignored.

[Boss Rock]

Bryan's injuries and subsequent forced retirement definitely work against his case, but he was arguably number one from 2006 until at least 2013. And he was great as early as 2002. And even when he was handcuffed by bad booking or opponents (Bray, Kane, Cass), he still busted his ass to make the matches better than they had any right to be. And while I've been largely checked out on WWE for the last 2 years or so, the stuff I have seen of him (vs. Kofi and Gulak) he still looks great.

[Jmare007]

 

11 minutes ago, FMKK said:

I really don't see any argument for Bryan as wrestler of the year in 2020 so far honestly. Maybe top ten but I think Omega, Okada, Ospreay, ZSJ, Miyahara and Shingo are a fair bit ahead of him. I love Bryan, I really do, but I think there's a tendency to overrate everything he does nowadays because he's a beloved figure and he's surrounded by a sea of shit in WWE. What's the case for him this year really built on, two Gulak matches and the Styles match from yesterday? That's a bit slim imo. In fact, I'd go as far to say that Bryan has had at best a mixed return to the ring since 2018. There have been flashes of greatness in some matches but also pretty long stretches of nothingness that, while they're the fault of the booking and the environment rather than the performer, can't really be ignored.

If you follow ShittyLittleBoots post on Bryan matches, he's very high on almost every single TV match he's had this year. When you add up all those matches, makes sense why he thinks D-Bry has been the best this year.

Not sure how Okada could be have a better case when he also has like 3 matches so far this year Kento's resume is pretty short too, same as Sabre and Shingo. As with everything in wrestling ti comes down to tastes. But I wouldn't say anyone in 2020 has a long list of good to great matches that make him or her a lock for a top 5 or anything. Shit, even Daichi Hashimoto's inconsistent ass has a case this year.

 

[Jmare007]

To be honest I don't see how Bryan's 3-4 year hiatus hurt his case more than any other wrestler's early to mid 00's hurting them because they weren't at a "best in the planet" level yet.

[El-P]

57 minutes ago, FMKK said:

I love Bryan, I really do, but I think there's a tendency to overrate everything he does nowadays because he's a beloved figure and he's surrounded by a sea of shit in WWE. 

Actually, it works both ways for Bryan I think. On one hand, because he's in WWE, he's gonna get overrated because it's WWE and it's the most visible company in the world. There's not even an argument about that one. Plus the fact he's so much better than pretty much everyone else helps his case a great deal in this context like you said.

But on the other hand, the fact he's been able to be great (by himself, despite the booking, despite the not-so-great co-workers) in this context pretty much cements the idea that he is indeed *that* great. Let's picture the same Bryan in NJ for instance from 2009 to 2015, with the talent he has. The number of awesome matches would be mind-blowing.

So yeah, working WWE both helps him regarding his actual output but also kinda hurts him considering what he could have done elsewhere (Japan, really, there's no other case during those years).

[SmoothS]

I have Cody Rhodes pegged as a 2020 Wrestler of the Year Candidate. I absolutely love what he is doing right now. Before CV mucked things up, I was also looking at David Starr as a candidate as well.