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[sek69]

29 minutes ago, Robert S said:

That's the same company (probably more like the same business) where the Terry Garvin school of self-defense was a thing.

I believe it was Bix who found an episode of Prime Time Wrestling on the network where Gorilla makes a Mel Phillips foot fetish joke. 

[The Thread Killer]

4 hours ago, Loss said:

I've watched a lot of 80s wrestling in recent months and I don't think it's fair to say it was "better". It's more that different things were emphasized in the presentation, which some might appreciate.

That's really the key point, right there.

I find myself becoming quite tired of the bickering back and forth between fans of "traditional" or "old school" Pro Wrestling and fans of the more modern product.  The presentation is totally different, so judging both types of Pro Wrestling against each other is almost pointless.  It really has become like comparing applies to oranges at this point.  It is an argument that can't be won, and it has become totally circular. There is no provable case to be made that one particular style is "better."  It all boils down to which style you prefer.

A lot of the older Pro Wrestling that I enjoy was produced at a time that the participants were still making a concerted effort to convince the audience that what they were seeing was a legitimate athletic contest.  Clearly, in some (but not all) aspects of the modern product, that premise has been abandoned which has resulted in the more cinematic style made popular by Matt Hardy, Lucha Underground, Impact, certain segments of AEW, and now the WWE with their own cinematic stuff.

When I watch a classic movie, like The Good, The Bad and The Ugly...I know Clint Eastwood isn't really a cowboy.  I know it's pretend, but I like to get caught up in the suspension of disbelief.  If he was to turn to the camera and wink during one of the most important scenes, or if lazer beams were to come shooting out of one of his pistols during a story that is supposed to be taking place during the Civil War, I wouldn't like it.  It would take me out of the movie, much like a lot of the things that go on during modern Pro Wrestling take me out of the match. The breakneck speed, the repeated spots, the lack of selling...I can understand these things and even appreciate them on some level, but that doesn't mean I have to like them.

I was debating this with a good friend of mine who was basically berating me because I had the audacity to say that I didn't enjoy that match in AEW that took place on the Football Field. (I can't remember what the actual name of the match was.) He asked me what I thought of the match, and I told him that I had turned it off during the match because I didn't enjoy it.  He was horrified and gave me a prolonged lecture about the evolution of the product and how I needed to accept the fact that Pro Wrestling had "evolved."  My only response was to ask him:

"Okay, fine.  But why should I watch something I don't enjoy?"

He ended up laughing and admitting that he had no argument for that...and he's right because there isn't an argument to be made.  Fans really need to stop trying to convince each other that their preferred style is the superior style and that if you don't agree then there is clearly something wrong with you. I can accept that is what modern Pro Wrestling has become, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.  It also doesn't mean there is anything wrong with me because I don't enjoy it.

I use pop music as an example.  The #1 song on the Billboard Pop chart in July 1955 was "Rock Around The Clock" by Bill Haley and The Comets.  The #1 song on the Billboard Pop chart in July 2020 was "Rockstar" by DaBaby.  Both are #1 songs on the Billboard Pop chart and both contain the word "Rock" in the title.  They are both songs.  But clearly that doesn't mean there isn't an obvious world of difference between the two songs.  They share pretty much as many differences as they do similarities.

If I say that I don't like modern pop music, it doesn't mean I'm wrong or refusing to get with the times...it just means that pop music has evolved into something I don't particularly care for. I don't think fans of traditional Pro Wrestling should berate fans of the modern product, but I also find lectures about how we must all evolve and embrace how wonderful the modern product is now, and how much better it is now, to be quite tiresome.  It's not better.  It's different.

I myself personally still enjoy slower paced, technical style matches which focus on mat based "psychology."  My friend finds that stuff boring.  He could no more sit through Jumbo vs. Billy Robertson in the 70's any easier than I could sit through one of the Omega/Okada matches. I get that.  Hell, I have shown him some vintage 90's All Japan and he didn't like it. I was somewhat surprised, but after thinking about it I came to understand that we just have wildly divergent opinions in what we are looking for in Pro Wrestling. 

I'm okay with that.

[sek69]

One of the things I enjoy most about pro wrestling is the variety of styles available to watch now more than ever. There's bound to be something you like out there if you look for it. If it's sports-entertainment, lucha,  strong style, grapplefuckery, cinematic wrestling, comedy, junior heavyweight style, there's tons of options out there if you don't like something. 

To extend @The Thread Killer's  analogy, it's not unlike music in that if you don't like one genre there's tons others out there that might appeal to you more. Maybe "pop wrestling" isn't your jam, but there's bound to be something out there that is more in tune to your tastes, and it's easier now than ever to find it.

[El-P]

33 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

When I watch a classic movie, like The Good, The Bad and The Ugly...I know Clint Eastwood isn't really a cowboy.  I know it's pretend, but I like to get caught up in the suspension of disbelief. 

Well, that's quite a choice for a "classic" movie because back when it was made, Leone was the furthest from classic western and his style actually was playing around conventions and the classic western movies fans thought it was shit.  FTR I love Leone's movies, especially that one, all-time favorites of mine.

33 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

I don't think fans of traditional Pro Wrestling should berate fans of the modern product, but I also find lectures about how we must all evolve and embrace how wonderful the modern product is now, and how much better it is now, to be quite tiresome. 

The thing is, as a fan of the current stuff, and I can still say I'm a fan of Nick Bockwinkle and Ric Flair and Misawa and Bret and whatnot, I hear much more talk about "today's workers don't know how to work, there's no psychology, it's a bunch of moves" than the other way around because I believe most of the people who enjoy the current stuff and have been watching for a long time still keep the older stuff in high regard. I really feel the lecturing has been mostly one way TBH, and it's always going the same way. I very seldom (if ever, because I don't remember hearing it at all, really) hear people pimping Omega shitting on the old stuff for instance. It's always "How dare you love this as much or more than this old Ric Flair or Misawa match ? It just can't be as good !" And at some point, yes, it is indeed tiresome to hear the same old song about pro-wrestling was so much better before and these days they have no psychology (which is totally false) and don't know how to sell (which is also false). The worst is that you almost feel obligated to justify yourself (like I pretty much did at the beginning of my post) by reminding everyone you're a Flair/Misawa/whatever fan before you say that you love the current stuff. At some point, I'm like, just fuck this, I'm gonna pimp this modern shit hard because I do believe it's great, I'm just tired of having to justify myself and show my credentials of "old-school fan" too. 

Yes, I do believe that the best workers of today are better than the best workers of yesteryear and that comes from a very pragmatical experience : the fact the three or four best matches I've ever seen after 30 years of watching pro-wrestling have happened in the last 3/4 years. It's not taking anything away from the great matches and workers of the past. In a way it makes sense that the workers of today should be better because they have all this history of great workers they can learn from, and it's very obvious they do when you watch workers like the Young Bucks or Tanahashi for instance.

[sek69]

I think it's not unlike in real sports where the players today are better than the ones of yesteryear (with the Jordan/Gretzky/Aaron types being the anomaly) just due to better training practices and advancements in technology. Sure. some random football player from the 70s might be the GOAT today with access to modern tech, but they didn't have that access so unfortunately for them they aren't. In the same way, it's very possible a wrestler from the 70s could be the next Hogan/Austin type today if they had all the modern advantages, but they didn't.

That's not to say current wrestlers will always be better than previous eras, but being in the modern era does have advantages in any field.

[Loss]

I like the idea that there's something out there for everyone now, but is there? I like matwork. I know about Daniel Makabe. Who else?

[El-P]

22 minutes ago, Loss said:

Who else?

Zach Sabre Jr. in NJPW, Deonna Purrazzo in IMPACT, Timothy Tatcher in NXT, from the top of my head. Tay Conti and Leila Hirsch are gonna bring some sweet submission work to AEW on a regular basis too.

[The Thread Killer]

6 hours ago, Loss said:

I like the idea that there's something out there for everyone now, but is there? I like matwork. I know about Daniel Makabe. Who else?

Did you see the recent ROH Pure Title Tournament? I thought it was outstanding.

[fxnj]

6 hours ago, sek69 said:

I think it's not unlike in real sports where the players today are better than the ones of yesteryear (with the Jordan/Gretzky/Aaron types being the anomaly) just due to better training practices and advancements in technology. Sure. some random football player from the 70s might be the GOAT today with access to modern tech, but they didn't have that access so unfortunately for them they aren't. In the same way, it's very possible a wrestler from the 70s could be the next Hogan/Austin type today if they had all the modern advantages, but they didn't.

That's not to say current wrestlers will always be better than previous eras, but being in the modern era does have advantages in any field.

I'd say there's two things counterbalancing the improvements in training technology

1. The fact that pro wrestling was a lot more popular in the 80's and 90's leading to a much larger talent pool to draw from.

2. The fact that it was much harder to become a pro wrestler and, at least in Japan, and people quickly got filtered by the ridiculously grueling dojo system.

I'm not going to use this this argue that US wrestling in the 80's was better than it is now (because I don't think it is), but you can really see this effect in Japan, I think. Just compare how Kobashi and Misawa work a headlock to how Okada and the difference is plain as day how much better trained the 90's AJPW guys were in the basics.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Since this has turned into the "let's vent" thread then let's go. First of all, Loss I know that twitter can actually be a great way to share thoughts and feelings, Don't be feeling bad about not doing stuff here. Twitter isn't the shitty wasteland some folks here pretend they don't look at, but constantly reference. If I have to read someone saying "WWE Stans or AEW Stans" again here it'll be too soon. The whole "WWE Stans" thing especially.  It's such a strawman here sometimes. News flash, gang.... almost anyone who would want to talk about WWE who digs it would not want to post here., KawadaSmile being the exception.. Especially since most WWE fans are people who don't talk about it online and have kids who like it. This whole "It's boomers who watch" line is nonsense, I've looked at that Thunderdome set up and not an old fuck in the lot. The demo thing doesn't reflect the "My kids like it so it's on" demo. Kids still like it. Not like the 80's for sure, but kid's still are the audience. Kids who don't own Neilson boxes but their folks do. I've been to a ton of WWE house shows here in Colorado and they've all been families in the crowds. The amount of smarks have been minimal. I was at one show here where there were literally four guys doing 'CM PUNK" chants and trying to shit on the HOUSE SHOW, sadly they were right behind me and my friends. Not so sadly, was us and the kids and their folks around us who shouted them down with BOO! and YAYY!

By the way, there are no "WWE Stans" here at PWO. That's something that comes up way too much.  Using invisible twitter folks for your arguments is lazy. If someone hates twitter wrestling culture so much, why constantly bring it up here just to can complain about it? It's no different from the complaining about wrestling TV shows that people either don't watch or do watch but hate watch. Which is insane behavior. 

Look. No one was a bigger Simpsons fan than me. By 2006 I found myself not laughing anymore, and I just stopped watching.  Do I go on Simpsons message boards to complain about a show I don't watch anymore? Of course not. That'd be insane behavior., Do I watch a show I don't like?  Of course not, that'd be insane behavior. Do I go on Simpsons boards to read about what they are doing and complain about it even though I don't watch it? Again, of course not. That'd be insane behavior.

Do I myself post about why I don't like , say IMPACT or whatever promotion? No, because I don't watch it.

Personally, I love old wrestling and current wrestling. This idea of a divide between the two is just silly. The last live show I went to was AEW Dynamite live in Broomfield, Colorado. And it was awesome. I also think that almost nothing is better than watching Bob Backlund vs. Greg Valentine from MSG or Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones.  I don't care about scandals or wrestler's opinions just like I don't care that Dustin Hoffman is abusive creep or John Wayne was a racist drunk. I still love The Graduate and True Grit.  TK above nailed it. Like what you like. If someone hates what you like, who cares? Wrestling is awesome!

Since the pandemic I've been watching the least amount of current rasslin in my life since I was 17 and quit for a few years. Girls and the Grateful Dead took over. But, over the past few months, things have changed a bit. My 10 year old nephew has been watching wrestling since he was a baby. It's been on here at least one Sunday a month since he was born, where his Uncle and his pals grill food and have fun.. As such, he  loves it but it's not been an obsession. When he was smaller, he adored Cena, Rey, and he still loves The New Day. I got to bring him to a house show when he was four to see Cena in the Main Event, But as most kids who grow up with something, it's just been "a thing".  Recently, his best pals who are two brothers from across the street, have become enamored with wrestling because of seeing it here, especially the 11 year old. My love of watching wrestling has changed now. Because of the pandemic, I lost interest because of no crowds and no crowd here at home. These kids are part of our bubble, and it's become something they look forward to each month, including AEW. My nephew acts like the 10 year old version of a "smart fan" now, explaining things to his pals with a tone of "I've been watching since I was one. You need to pay attention to Rey Mysterio, he;'s the best." They keep asking me when the next "A and W" show is, as they watched the last AEW PPV here. They LOVED the Royal Rumble show, and can't wait for the next show. And this is awesome. When they first saw the Fiend last year, the kids ADORED it. Now, they say they don't care anymore and are totally over the gimmick. Their consensus now about who's cool include Kevin Owens, New Day, Orange Cassidy, Asuka, Bianca Belair, and they want to see Charlotte Flair beat up Lacey Evans. My love of wrestling has been rejuvenated by watching it with my nephew and his pals. Now, I just have to keep them from killing each other while watching. The 11 year old can do a mean German suplex on the other kids.

New Day Rocks!

 

[El-P]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

Using invisible twitter folks for your arguments is lazy. If someone hates twitter wrestling culture so much, why constantly bring it up here just to can complain about it?

Because Twitter stuff is posted all the time on the board. No one is talking about "invisible Twitter folk".  That Twitter is mostly a cesspool is not exactly a pro-wrestling thing either. It is a cesspool in general. Spending 20 minutes on Twitter on any subject pretty much makes me want to throw myself out the window.

9 minutes ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

I don't care about scandals or wrestler's opinions just like I don't care that Dustin Hoffman is abusive creep or John Wayne was a racist drunk. I still love The Graduate and True Grit. 

Good for you. Does that mean we shouldn't talk about the #SpeakingOut movement on the board or the fact Vince treats people who works for him like shit or everything wrong about pro-wrestling ? 

[Loss]

I appreciate the modern mat wrestling recommendations. I want to check out those shows now. 2020-21 shows are difficult for me with no crowd, and I'm curious if in five years we'll be talking about anything from this time period or if it will all subside as this little blip in wrestling history.

[El-P]

To me the no-crowd thing is funny, because at times it's been rough to watch some stuff, like the weekly IMPACT shows at first, but now I wish they would not add fake crowd noise as I got used to the silence in the studio and hearing more clearly of what happens in the ring. Also, it allowed for a more out of the box thinking (although of course Broken Matt Hardy and Lucha Underground already set the groundwork for this in the second half of the 10's) and although some stuff has sucked really hard (you know which ones), others have been just wonderful and responsible for some of the most fun I had watching pro-wrestling last year (Stadium Stampede actually will remain a GOAT pro-wrestling "match" to me, but the Taker vs Styles one at Mania was terrific too, I loved the Wrestler House in IMPACT like I said).

It surely has impacted AEW a lot in term of atmosphere, especially with all these debuts which would have gotten such huge pops and the perception of the workers would probably have been positively affected. Still, last year had some of my favorite moments ever in my 30 years of watching pro-wrestling. Plus it's far from being over, we're soon getting to the point of closing a year of COVID-era pro-wrestling and even in Japan where you have crowds it's not nearly the same thing with only clapping (even in Japan where the sound of the crowd is very different from US or Mexico, which is another issue altogether as I haven't been tempted to watch any lucha without a crowd).

On a personal note, as a bit of an agoraphobic person, the idea that there will never ever be those super large crowds is kind of cool, because I just can't stand crowds in general ! (that being said, I love huge stadiums settings for pro-wrestling show from a purely visual standpoint, so I'l confusing myself !)

[Matt D]

A couple of things to say:

I feel very, very strongly in the theory of wrestling having undergone a chemical change (as opposed to a physical one) since the 80s (or maybe the late 90s, sure) and the notion that it is apples and oranges, which in my mind, makes it easier to praise both the apples and the oranges because they're different things with different goals and different success metrics. I might not spend a lot of time watching the oranges but that's a me thing.

I think Johnny makes it extremely clear that we all have different situations. My kids don't watch wrestling. If they did, my situation might be different. I watch as much wrestling as I have in years and I watch as much wrestling that I haven't seen as I've watched in years, but almost 0 of it is from 2021. My hobby, and this is a hobby, is driven by two thiIngs right now: 1) the output that I create for Segunda Caida, which consists of two French shows a week and the 3 matches we find for New Footage Friday, and then the fact I have 30 mins every other night to kill on a treadmill (down 40 lbs since summer and feeling pretty good) and I've chosen to go through every match in 1989 AJPW because I'd seen very little of that.

There's the social itch, sure. I hang out here and DVDVR. I'm not on twitter but I occasionally look at what people post. I read WWE results and will see some of the big PPVs with you guys barring my family responsibilities. I loosely follow AEW with a couple of threads and what Eric posts on SC (which probably gets more hits than us talking about older wrestler), but past the Dustin vs Cody match, I've never actually seen it. I'm good. I've never seen an Omega match. I'm good there too. I'm happy you guys are happy, mainly. I wish more people would be engaged with the French wrestling or follow along with us in NFF, but I've always got Phil and Eric and Jetlag. More people engaged with it would scratch an itch that doesn't quite get scratched enough but I lazily make gifs out of some of the Catch and someone posts them on twitter a lot and I like to see people's reactions. So I get little bits of the social. And I talk to a few people about what I'm watching and what they're watching online in real time.

Occasionally, I do want to scratch the 2021 itch. There was a praised SEAd vs Stardom match over at DVDVR yesterday and maybe I'll check that out. That sort of thing.

Right now I'm planning on watching AJPW until either Tenryu leaves or the Misawa vs Jumbo match in 90 and then I go on to something else, maybe following Hashimoto's entire career, maybe following Tenryu to the next thing, maybe 92 Memphis since I've seen 93 but not a ton of 92 TV. I don't know. I have plenty of options, but they're going to be on my terms and fit into my hobby how I want, because we have that freedom now, and my social itch is scratched enough on those terms. It's a hobby, not an obligation, even if having projects and deliverables helps give it some focus and direction and even sort of an internal reward structure, because that's how most of my hobbies go. But it's a hobby and I treat it as such.

[Ricky Jackson]

Maybe this thread can be changed to "state of fandom in 2021" or something.

As for me, outside of hanging out here and a few other things (a podcast here, an occasional get together with Johnny and friends for Mystery Titans there) I've been been on a total break from wrestling since last May or June. I just needed it I think, and the pandemic era has made it easy not to care about new stuff. I'm ok, comic books are keeping me sane. Glad others are still finding joy in the squared circle 

[The Thread Killer]

2 hours ago, Loss said:

I appreciate the modern mat wrestling recommendations. I want to check out those shows now. 2020-21 shows are difficult for me with no crowd, and I'm curious if in five years we'll be talking about anything from this time period or if it will all subside as this little blip in wrestling history.

Loss, if you are interested in checking out the ROH Pure Title Tournament, you'll be looking for Ring of Honor's weekly TV show beginning with episode #469 and ending with #478, I believe. That tournament almost served as a promotional "reboot" for a couple of reasons.  Firstly, ROH hadn't produced any new content for TV in a while, because they pretty much shut down due to the pandemic.  Secondly, Marty Scurll had been assuming a bigger role in the creative aspect of ROH prior to the pandemic, but by the time the Pure Title tournament started he was pretty much out of the picture due to the allegations levied at him as part of the "#SpeakingOut" movement.  I found personally that watching Ring of Honor from that point onward was pretty much like a fresh start.  They did an excellent job doing "sports like" introductory interviews and packages prior to the matches, so even if you were unfamiliar with the talent, it didn't matter.

Prior to this tournament, I had pretty much given up on watching any current Pro Wrestling for a couple of reasons.  I had been a huge fan of NXT after they debuted on the USA Network but I found there had been a steady decline in the quality of that show.  In my mind NXT used to be distinguishable from the so-called "Main Roster" WWE shows but I found in time that was becoming less and less the case.  I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with AEW because I just wasn't enjoying the style of the in-ring product and especially the creative.  There was a lot of good in there, to be sure.  But there was also a lot of stuff I didn't enjoy, so I pretty much tuned out.

The "nail in the coffin" for me was the pandemic and the lack of live crowds.  I had honestly never realized how integral fans were to my enjoyment of watching Pro Wrestling. (Which is ironic because the fans are the reason I won't attend live shows any more.)  I didn't have a problem watching Baseball, Hockey or even MMA with no fans in the crowd...but to me Pro Wrestling was just way too weird without the crowd reactions...and the piped in fake cheers and chants sure didn't make up for it.  I will say that of everything I saw, AEW did far and away the best job at adapting to the lack of crowds.

The ROH Pure Tournament was the first new product I watched.  It definitely took some getting used to, watching Pro Wrestling with no fans in attendance.  But ROH did a great job adapting their presentation to make it work.  The announcing was particularly good, and the quality of the mat based actual wrestling was really enjoyable, in my opinion.  To a degree, it almost reminded me of early Pancrase or even U-Style.  Maybe because the crowds there were totally silent, and by the end of U-Style I know they had a couple of shows where there were less than 100 fans in attendance.  I have one old U-Style show on VHS where I swear it looked like there wasn't anybody there except the crew.  But for whatever reason, that didn't distract from my enjoyment of the actual wrestling...just like with the ROH Pure Tournament.  If you check it out, I hope you enjoy it.

[BigBadMick]

It's funny all of this is coming together in a thread right now...

My brother in law is in his mid 40s. Last watched in the early 90s. In an effort to keep his three boys entertained, he's ordered the WWE Network. He's asked me for recommendations based on what the boys are enjoying, and I'm trying not to overwhelm him with playlists. 

I was wondering yesterday, though, what are the odds against him or any of the three lads becoming wrestling lifers, possibly lurking and eventually posting here or somewhere similar? It really must be at least 10,000/1.

[Loss]

To me, Voices of Wrestling is more tapped into the current "watch everything" fan climate than any site. In five years, some will have moved on and some will still be there. In 10 years, more will have moved on, but some will still be there. In 15 years, most will have moved on, but some will still be there. And there will be changes in wrestling during that time that some will love and keep up with and some will instead more fondly remember wrestling from the late 2010s/early 2020s. Then they'll join us old-timers, only their frame of reference for "old school" will be something that seems almost unrecognizable to us. That pattern happened many times before us and will happen many times after us.

[MoS]

10 hours ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

Especially since most WWE fans are people who don't talk about it online and have kids who like it. This whole "It's boomers who watch" line is nonsense, I've looked at that Thunderdome set up and not an old fuck in the lot. The demo thing doesn't reflect the "My kids like it so it's on" demo. Kids still like it. Not like the 80's for sure, but kid's still are the audience. Kids who don't own Neilson boxes but their folks do.

Sorry but this is a total misunderstanding of how demos work and how Nielsen ratings work. Of course kids don't own Nielsen boxes. Nielsen boxes also measure viewers per household, as well as the age and sex of every single viewer in that household who is watching. If the TV is left on by boomers because their grandkids want to watch, that absolutely will be reflected in the demo ratings. 

Your anecdotal experience is not reality. I am glad that you see a lot of kids in house shows you go to, and know kids that enjoy WWE. It doesn't change the fact that by and large, WWE's biggest audience is boomer. Hell, house show numbers had nosedived so ridiculously, that even before the pandemic they had greatly scaled down on the live events they were doing, cuz they were literally losing money on them, something that would have been inconceivable just a few years ago. Like it or not, WWE's biggest income stream is TV rights, and their TV audience is largely boomers, and that remains so even if you don't personally like the fact or completely misunderstand how Nielsen works. It doesn't change just because you know a lot of kids that love WWE. Anecdotal evidence is not reality. Sorry. 

[El-P]

2 minutes ago, MoS said:

Your anecdotal experience is not reality.

4 minutes ago, MoS said:

Anecdotal evidence is not reality. Sorry. 

I'm glad someone other than me drops that one (because I was not about to do it, I come off enough of a fucking heel already ), but yeah, anecdotal personal experience is never a good way to pass judgement on a phenomenon. Like, never. 

BTW, just in passing, see what happens when you drop by on the board Charles ? You trigger *interesting* discussions and interactions. Unlike Edge, you're a draw ! Don't be a stranger in your own home.  

 

[Loss]

I have an idea for a thread at least. 

[joeg]

20 hours ago, Loss said:

I like the idea that there's something out there for everyone now, but is there? I like matwork. I know about Daniel Makabe. Who else?

Did you see the Daniel Bryan vs Drew Gulak matches from last year? Not super slick and nifty like Makabe. More violent and vicious like BattleArtsesque.

The Josh Barnett BloodSport shows have all had a lot of shootstyle catch inspired matwork that you'd probably dig. 

[Pterois]

I don't like the comments I'm reading. Who cares if a wrestler is a killer, a rapist or doesn't share the same political values as you. It shouldn't be a thing that matters when you're watching wrestling shows or matches. The same should apply to movies and sports. Hell, watching a Chris Benoit's match doesn't bother me. I also don't mind watching Kevin Nash and Mick Foley although I hate their tweets.

 

[MoS]

2 hours ago, Pterois said:

I don't like the comments I'm reading. Who cares if a wrestler is a killer, a rapist or doesn't share the same political values as you. It shouldn't be a thing that matters when you're watching wrestling shows or matches. The same should apply to movies and sports. Hell, watching a Chris Benoit's match doesn't bother me. I also don't mind watching Kevin Nash and Mick Foley although I hate their tweets.

 

Good for you 

[Loss]

I don't want to moralize. That's definitely not the entirety of the point. Even if they were all upstanding citizens who volunteered in their communities and fed the needy on their days off, it feels wrong framing discussions about wrestling around the messenger (the wrestler) instead of the message (the match). That's what I mean. There are wrestlers where it's tougher to set it aside than others, but the bigger issue is that I have far less issue commodifying work than commodifying people, if that makes any sense at all. If I ran a fast food restaurant, instead of Employee of the Month, we'd have a Drive-Thru Experience of the Month.