2026 Ideas

[Dav'oh]

4 hours ago, elliott said:

Something else I'm going to think about is managers

It's amazing that Heenan (after a fashion) main-evented Wrestlemanias 2 and 3, and The Big Event in Toronto, and semi-mained Mania 1. Some of the biggest and most pivotal events in wrestling history, and the common denominator was the Brain.

[Reel]

5 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I think there's enough Gorgeous George out there to vote for him. 

That's fair, there are probably better examples, but I think the point still stands. And, I plan on putting Johnny Valentine on my list somewhere based on his incredibly limited footage, so I don't even stand behind that point completely. 

[elliott]

I want to watch every piece of available Johnny Valentine footage. 

[dkookypunk43]

Just got the new laptop and invested in a year of Premiere Pro and Audition so I'm down for making content. I also figured out how to randomize in google docs if anyone wants that info

[Matt D]

Loose plans:

• Finish all AJPW 89, watch all AJPW 90, figure out what to do with 91. Follow Tenryu forward. Then watch just enough mid-late 90s AJPW and NOAH to shove down the pillars except for Taue.
• Finish the INA French Catch collection. Figure out some chronological approach to WoS.
• Watch all Hashimoto on tape and use that to spiral off in different directions of interest, most especially early 90s NJPW.
• Figure out how to deal with the 00s Indy guys with sufficient footage over time (Hopefully limited to Bryan, Styles, Joe, Homicide, Kingston, Hero, Ki, but I don't know. As much overlap as possible, but I'll have to deal with some TNA; then the floodgate opens. Do I want to deal with Jimmy Rave or Derrick King? Not really)
• Something something Choshu? Kandori?
• 1997 WWF, especially TV and handhelds. I've seen less of that one particular year than you'd think.
• Watch every Destroyer match on tape. Watch every Pat Patterson match on tape. Watch every Volk Han match on tape.
• Whatever I promised I'd do with Daisuke Sekimoto
• Maybe the DVDVR Other Japan 80s set? FUTEN? BattlARTS?
• Late 80s Dandy

That doesn't seem like a bad way to spend 5 years, right? Except for the pillars stuff.

[El-P]

So you're gonna watch the AJPWNOAH stuff with the pre-determined idea that you're gonna "shove down" the pillars except Taue. Why even bother watching then ?

This kind of approach is such a turn-off to me. Gives me the urge to make my list already, 99% japanese women wrestlers + Raven at N°1, for the fuck of it, really.

[Matt D]

8 minutes ago, El-P said:

So you're gonna watch the AJPWNOAH stuff with the pre-determined idea that you're gonna "shove down" the pillars except Taue. Why even bother watching then ?

This kind of approach is such a turn-off to me. Gives me the urge to make my list already, 99% japanese women wrestlers + Raven at N°1, for the fuck of it, really.

I need to rank them based on the first half of their careers. I can't accurately rank them without that stuff. I am not at all looking forward to it. It's the only part of the project that's work and not fun. Maybe I'll be happily surprised?

But hey, if you want to fuck off and make your list already, be my guest. It'll make for a more pleasant and less pointlessly contentious few years, probably. You come in hot on almost every post these days.

[El-P]

You're just ignoring my point. The idea of going into this thing with a pre-determined idea that you've got to "shove down" some name is ridiculous and makes the thing pointless.

[Matt D]

Just now, El-P said:

You're just ignoring my point. The idea of going into this thing with a pre-determined idea that you've got to "shove down" some name is ridiculous and makes the thing pointless.

 

It's pre-determined because I know, on a passing glance I've already done that there's a lot in there I don't like. I know I'm going to have to shove them down. I don't take any enjoyment in  that. I don't want to shove them down. I'm not doing it to be controversial. There's a lot about them I really enjoy. Finding how far they get shoved down is going to be work. I assume I'm going to penalize Taue less. If it turns out that's not the case and he deserves it just as much, all the worse. If they don't deserve it collectively as much, all the better.

[elliott]

I mean....Matt pretty famously puts the work in and explains his positions. 

edit: Matt there's a shocking lack of Bull Nakano on that list. 

[Grimmas]

28 minutes ago, El-P said:

So you're gonna watch the AJPWNOAH stuff with the pre-determined idea that you're gonna "shove down" the pillars except Taue. Why even bother watching then ?

This kind of approach is such a turn-off to me. Gives me the urge to make my list already, 99% japanese women wrestlers + Raven at N°1, for the fuck of it, really.

Are you implying we shouldn't get a whole picture on a candidate, even if we know getting that whole picture will lower them then just seeing their best?

[Matt D]

16 minutes ago, elliott said:

edit: Matt there's a shocking lack of Bull Nakano on that list. 

It'll be a bit like how I'm using Hash. I'll use Kandori to branch out in other directions. I'm sure Nakano will be that direction and I'll have to go backwards with her quite a bit. I'm not totally blind to joshi but I definitely don't have the comprehensive knowledge I'd like and I have to come at this with some plan or it'll be madness (for me at least).

[El-P]

27 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I'm not doing it to be controversial. 

But you don't ignore you are. The fact you end your post by underlining that "oh, the pillar stuff isn't gonna be fun" absolutely puts the focus on this very point. Basically you begin your post with this point and you conclude your post with the same point. 

25 minutes ago, elliott said:

I mean....Matt pretty famously puts the work in and explains his positions. 

Which is why I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt... 

As far as me fucking off, well, it's not like we're gonna debate since we're probably on polar opposites considering the approach, he doesn't have to worry about his safe space.

15 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

Are you implying we shouldn't get a whole picture on a candidate, even if we know getting that whole picture will lower them then just seeing their best?

That is a totally different thing since it also involves stuff like "How many hours of pro-wrestling are you willing to watch ?", which is the kind of gatekeeping stuff that had people ran away with fear the last time (and still may prevent some people to take part in this because they will feel they "haven't watched enough").

But no, my point was about announcing that you're going into this with a pre-conceived idea of watching stuff to "shove down" names. Again, WHY BOTHER ? I'd rather watch stuff that I will enjoy and maybe shoot up names, without preconceived ideas.

As far as getting a whole picture, that's totally up to debate for several reasons, first you get the old peak vs longevity duality (and I'm not sure which one is more valid to me, I honestly understand both). And then like I said, unless you spend you life watching pro-wrestling, you're not gonna get the full picture for every name. And is it really necessary ? I honestly don't think so (so I guess I'm more of a peak guy in a way ?), because the way I see things, the brillance of one moment can be more important to someone than being really consistent for a long time. Or even having peaks at different times or different styles can seem more important. There's so many way to approach how you'd want to compare. And that is, I'm not even sure I'm comfortable "comparing" and even less "rating", although I'm sure I can basically get to the point of having a satisfactory "top 20" names of the greatness wrestlers ever to me. But I'm thinking the criterias can't be rigid, neither in term of styles neither in term of how I'll look at what is the most important. To me it will depend of what I get from each workers. Probably some will get high more because of the consistency over a long period, and some will get high because of an incredible peak. And also, and that's not a nice things to say I know, but having watched more than everybody else doesn't mean you understand better, like, at all. You can have watched pro-wrestling for 30 years and have some of the worst takes ever (yeah, you can apply that to me if you want ). Which is why the gates should be open to different kind of voters indeed.

[Loss]

Just posting to say that I'm on an anti-compartmentalization kick at the moment and will probably refuse to limit myself to in-ring. Instead, I'll ask a more vague question like, "In each environment that this wrestler was in, did they do everything they needed to do to be as great and effective as the environment allowed?"

[El-P]

7 minutes ago, Loss said:

"In each environment that this wrestler was in, did they do everything they needed to do to be as great and effective as the environment allowed?"

I like that question. Because it does certainly apply to the in-ring stuff in term of the styles they are working.

Which is why for instance, although the Shawn vs Taker matches at Mania weren't my favorite style at all, what they did absolutely worked wonders in this context and absolutely reached greatness status to me, although I liked the Batista & Edge matches better. From then of course, you have to try and grasp who did what that made it so great to you, and like you said before it's easier to judge a match than a worker...

[ohtani's jacket]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Loose plans:

• Finish all AJPW 89, watch all AJPW 90, figure out what to do with 91. Follow Tenryu forward. Then watch just enough mid-late 90s AJPW and NOAH to shove down the pillars except for Taue.
• Finish the INA French Catch collection. Figure out some chronological approach to WoS.
• Watch all Hashimoto on tape and use that to spiral off in different directions of interest, most especially early 90s NJPW.
• Figure out how to deal with the 00s Indy guys with sufficient footage over time (Hopefully limited to Bryan, Styles, Joe, Homicide, Kingston, Hero, Ki, but I don't know. As much overlap as possible, but I'll have to deal with some TNA; then the floodgate opens. Do I want to deal with Jimmy Rave or Derrick King? Not really)
• Something something Choshu? Kandori?
• 1997 WWF, especially TV and handhelds. I've seen less of that one particular year than you'd think.
• Watch every Destroyer match on tape. Watch every Pat Patterson match on tape. Watch every Volk Han match on tape.
• Whatever I promised I'd do with Daisuke Sekimoto
• Maybe the DVDVR Other Japan 80s set? FUTEN? BattlARTS?
• Late 80s Dandy

That doesn't seem like a bad way to spend 5 years, right? Except for the pillars stuff.

I don't think you can watch 1990 All Japan without going into 1991, presuming you like the Misawa vs. Jumbo feud as much as others do. Early Taue is a thing as well. I personally love that Jumbo/Taue tag team. I haven't checked in on your '89 AJPW feud in a while, but maybe you'll have softened on a few of the pillars by the time you watch their later stuff. I go back and forth on it myself. I get sick of it, don't watch it for years, then watch a match and get bowled over. Wrestling, to me, is always about the mindset I'm in.

If you need help with WoS let me know. 

[Loss]

Yes, and it also takes into consideration things like post-match brawls and the ability do angles that click, which is something that is relevant across styles and countries.

You're also not penalizing Shawn Michaels for not being a very good mat wrestler, because he's not in an environment where anyone expects him to work the mat or one where it would help him get over more if he could. For RINGS wrestlers, they need to be exceptionally technically proficient, but it doesn't really matter if they can do promos. Yet you've still found a somewhat universal standard you can apply that accounts for these differences.

[elliott]

16 minutes ago, Matt D said:

It'll be a bit like how I'm using Hash. I'll use Kandori to branch out in other directions. I'm sure Nakano will be that direction and I'll have to go backwards with her quite a bit. I'm not totally blind to joshi but I definitely don't have the comprehensive knowledge I'd like and I have to come at this with some plan or it'll be madness (for me at least).

I can help you with a plan for 80s and 90s Joshi for sure. A decent chunk of my upper tier is gonna come from that era. I voted for Joshi mostly based on memory last time around. Having gone through a ton of it over the last couple of years, that was a big mistake.   Hokuto, Bull, Devil, Dump, Jaguar, and Chigusa are all wrestlers likely to make or at least contend for spots in my top 10. The best 80s and 90s Joshi is the best stuff I've ever watched. 

[El-P]

To me the "universal standard" would come from within the workers themselves in term of how they are displaying their own greatness. I don't want to have a grid of lecture and apply my own criterias to workers, I want to let the workers themselves bring that greatness onto me, taking in account that my perception will always be subjective.

[Loss]

Absolutely. 100% that. Let them show me the way. If they're so great, they should be able to do the work and I should remain the passenger.

[Matt D]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

Basically you begin your post with this point and you conclude your post with the same point. 

I shouldn't have to justify this but... I led with AJPW because it's what I'm watching every other night. I'm documenting that over at DVDVR. So it, along with France, is the biggest project I have currently. I went back to it at the end since it went to the point I was making about how everything would be pretty enjoyable (but that). I kept Japan off my list in 2016 (though I included Lucha and WoS and other areas people skipped) because I couldn't surmount that issue. This time around, I'd like to include the pillars but I can't without doing the not-fun legwork. Otherwise, I'd just keep them off again. And once you keep them off, are you really going to include Fuchi or Tenryu?

Also, we have almost ten years of the French footage available (over a hundred matches) for anyone who wants to take a look, and more's out there every week.

1 hour ago, ohtani's jacket said:

If you need help with WoS let me know.  

 

1 hour ago, elliott said:

I can help you with a plan for 80s and 90s Joshi for sure.

Thank you both. Definitely will be helpful in thinking through all this. I'm more than happy to lean on other people's expertise to make sense of this.

As for going into 1991 AJPW, it'll probably come down to whether or not I want to take a break and look at something else and come back to it. Right now I'm on a roll but i feel like the amount of footage (especially, but not just, handhelds) steps up as we get into 90 and 91 so doing what I'm doing now might not be feasible.

Still, we have five years.

[LowBlowPodcast]

Here's what I will be working from... 1-10 on each to help

Drawing Power - (Did they bring the asses to the seats?)

Promo Power  - (How well did they have the gift of gab?)

Longevity - (Who lasted the longest while still making an Impact)

Character - (Who played their character the best?)

In ring ability - (Who was able to turn it up and go when it came to getting in the ring week in and week out)

Big Match Ability - (Pretty much the Shawn Michaels category...who really brought it when it counted the most?)



 

[Matt D]

Ok. We need to rename the project. (I’m kidding, probably)

[El-P]

34 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I shouldn't have to justify this but... I led with AJPW because it's what I'm watching every other night. I'm documenting that over at DVDVR. So it, along with France, is the biggest project I have currently. I went back to it at the end since it went to the point I was making about how everything would be pretty enjoyable (but that). I kept Japan off my list in 2016 (though I included Lucha and WoS and other areas people skipped) because I couldn't surmount that issue. This time around, I'd like to include the pillars but I can't without doing the not-fun legwork. Otherwise, I'd just keep them off again.

Ok, fair enough.

34 minutes ago, Matt D said:

And once you keep them off, are you really going to include Fuchi or Tenryu?

If you've watched the 80's stuff (or the non AJPW Tenryu stuff) and you want to include them, of course, no reason not to. You can't watch everything.

[Grimmas]

37 minutes ago, LowBlowPodcast said:

Here's what I will be working from... 1-10 on each to help

Drawing Power - (Did they bring the asses to the seats?)

Promo Power  - (How well did they have the gift of gab?)

Longevity - (Who lasted the longest while still making an Impact)

Character - (Who played their character the best?)

In ring ability - (Who was able to turn it up and go when it came to getting in the ring week in and week out)

Big Match Ability - (Pretty much the Shawn Michaels category...who really brought it when it counted the most?)



 

I don't think you got the point of the project, because drawing power is really irrelevant, and how good they talk is really irrelevant. It's like evaluating movies/music, how much they made and how good the trailers/music videos were are not really relevant. 

Nobody claims Avatar is the greatest film ever or Drake is the best musicina of all time.