AEW Dynamite - Grand Slam - September 22, 2021

[KawadaSmile]

It was riiiight before the Wyatts/Shield feud.

Also you might enjoy that feud because Dusty was giving zero fucks in regards to Steph and Hunter. He was soooo good there

[NintendoLogic]

Before Wednesday night, I would have said that the best match of Danielson's career was against Morishima at Manhattan Mayhem. I don't know if I'd rate the Omega match above it, but it's not out of the question at all. By the way, nobody is "bitching" about star ratings. I and plenty of other people simply found it amusing that the likes of Sid and EC3 had a match given five stars in the Observer while someone universally recognized as one of the all-time greats didn't.

[Steenalized]

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

Before Wednesday night, I would have said that the best match of Danielson's career was against Morishima at Manhattan Mayhem. I don't know if I'd rate the Omega match above it, but it's not out of the question at all. By the way, nobody is "bitching" about star ratings. I and plenty of other people simply found it amusing that the likes of Sid and EC3 had a match given five stars in the Observer while someone universally recognized as one of the all-time greats didn't.

What struck me is Dave (who I believe does not go back and re-rate matches, at least officially) gave five stars 23 matches in the 80s, 65 in the 90s, 7(!!!) in the 00s, and 67 in the 10s and 28 so far in the 20s, though obviously all of that is under a new system with going over five stars. Dude got serious about protecting five stars in the 00s. Of course everything from 2017 on is a different scale, but man what happened in the 00s that he was so down on matches?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_wrestling_matches_rated_5_or_more_stars_by_Dave_Meltzer

This is not a complaint, only an observation.

[Matt D]

24 minutes ago, Steenalized said:

What struck me is Dave (who I believe does not go back and re-rate matches, at least officially) gave five stars 23 matches in the 80s, 65 in the 90s, 7(!!!) in the 00s, and 67 in the 10s and 28 so far in the 20s, though obviously all of that is under a new system with going over five stars. Dude got serious about protecting five stars in the 00s. Of course everything from 2017 on is a different scale, but man what happened in the 00s that he was so down on matches?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_wrestling_matches_rated_5_or_more_stars_by_Dave_Meltzer

This is not a complaint, only an observation.

You can't give MMA fights star ratings?

[Dale Wolfe]

Does Meltzer rate mma in the same way? I havent read him in years

Can think of a few dozen 5* the last ten years, easy 

[sek69]

Dave went hard into MMA in the 00s, partly because UFC blew up big and partly because wrestling was kind of in the doldrums at the same time. There probably were way more five star indy matches at that time (in fact I'd be certain of that) but even today if it doesn't happen in PWG he doesn't tend to notice it. 

[El-P]

3 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

 I and plenty of other people simply found it amusing that the likes of Sid and EC3 had a match given five stars in the Observer while someone universally recognized as one of the all-time greats didn't.

Point taken. I'm not versed at all in Meltz ratings (because I don't care), so the joke flew right above my head.

[Jmare007]

I thought Omega/Danielson was fucking great. Surprised is getting THAT much praise here though, I don't think it's as good as a bunch of his WWE matches but to each their own I guess.

[Dale Wolfe]

19 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Dave went hard into MMA in the 00s, partly because UFC blew up big and partly because wrestling was kind of in the doldrums at the same time. There probably were way more five star indy matches at that time (in fact I'd be certain of that) but even today if it doesn't happen in PWG he doesn't tend to notice it. 

Does he "rate" mma? 

Whilst i wouldn't necessarily agree with it could understand the idea of a recommendation basis 

[sek69]

He doesn't give star ratings for MMA, no.

[C.S.]

On 9/23/2021 at 12:17 PM, KawadaSmile said:

You know what Cody/Black needs? More Rosario Dawson.

I know you're joking, Bubba, but I popped hard at Rosario's appearance.

[Flyin' Brian]

I really liked Cody when AEW started. Lately something has seemed off. Maybe it’s the ‘Cody goes Hollywood’ stuff. He’s wrestling Shaq and having Rosario Dawson involved in a feud that’s he’s hardly shown up for except for the matches. An injury angle in 2021 when the guy that’s supposed to be injured is appearing on shows on the same channel, sometimes right before or right after AEW programming, is just a weird choice. Arn, Cody, and Brandi all turning heel could work, I don’t know if it would be better to have them turn on Dustin so it’s still an Anderson turning on a Rhodes or if there’s some way for Dustin to turn too, but something needs to happen. Cody just feels like he’s lost his way. I don’t know if it’s all the outside ventures, the trademark battles with WWE, trying to be a ‘rah rah’ America babyface but in a way that definitely turns off AEW’s core fan base and seems to appeal to a different crowd, the decisions are baffling without a heel turn. 

[KawadaSmile]

2 hours ago, C.S. said:

I know you're joking, Bubba, but I popped hard at Rosario's appearance.

I enjoyed it when I thought of the absurdity of it all, like Robocop saving Sting, but it absolutely sucked when you think about the bigger picture.

TK booked that in a cocaine frenzy, for sure.

[Mad Dog]

I felt the urge to go buy a pack of cigarettes after that Danielson/Omega match. What a fucking masterpiece of a match.

[MoS]

Apparently the match started at 1.15 million viewers and ended at 1.5 million viewers, which is absolutely insane when you think about it. Like they increased the viewership by a number that's more than one-third of their usual audience.

[Jimmy Redman]

I want to preface this by saying that I really enjoyed the match, and the entire show, and this isn't just me being difficult.

I loved Bryan-Omega, and the spectacle of it all and the moment was incredible and they hit another massive home run. But I didn't come away from it thinking it was a five star match, or one of the best TV matches I've ever seen, or the best Bryan match I've ever seen. I've seen a lot of reactions like those and while I fully understand, it didn't do that for me.

I think I've hit upon one of the reasons why, so this may sound weird but I pose this as a genuine question. Where were the wrestling moves?

To me it felt like half an hour of mostly guys just kicking and kneeing and chopping each other really hard. Which is like, cool, but maybe not entirely what I expected from this. They opened with chops and kicks and strikes. Every time Bryan got an opening all he seemed to do was just go back to throwing those kicks. Omega hit what felt like half a dozen of those running knees, which look fucking disgustingly stiff, but by the end of the match I had become completely numb to them since he kept throwing them and they kept not doing anything. (Except the big running one on the ramp because that was cool as fuck.) Apart from that, Bryan took the Dragon suplex on the ramp, he did the backdrop off the top and did Cattle Mutilation... and that's literally the only moves I can recall from the match. In 30 minutes.

You all know I'm not the kind of person to get all "moveset", but like, it really stuck out to me how little wrestling or wrestling moves were in this. Not even any matwork early on. As I was watching, as long as this match went, I just kept kind of waiting for the "wrestling match" to start, if that makes sense, and I felt like it never did. It just felt like a beating, who can hit each other with more of the same repeated stiff strikes.

So my question is, is this a typical Kenny Omega match?

Is it a typical pre-WWE Bryan Danielson match?

Is it just representative of the typical workrate style du jour in general?

I haven't seen enough of Omega, Danielson or wrestling in 2021 to really know the answer to that, so I'm asking.

I don't get the hype about Omega at all, but that's a snap judgment from a very limited sample. Something about him leaves me cold, and I don't see what he does in-ring that sets him apart from literally any technically good guy going long and having indy epics. He's Adam Cole to me, and I don't mean that as a good thing because I feel the same indifference towards him.

So maybe it's me and the house style, so to speak, has passed me by since the mid-2010s. I felt the same watching All Out at times, whether it's the proliferation of no selling and "take turns" mirrored no selling, or just the fact that so many guys seemingly have a strike or strikes that looks like a death blow to the head that they hit ten times a match without winning. Like, literally. Where are the moves?

[MoS]

Someone else can explain Omega, but while there were big elements of the typical great Bryan Danielson match in this draw, it is not a typical Danielson match. A typical Danielson RoH title defence, for instance, used to have a lot of nasty matwork, something you specifically mentioned, where Bryan would do these delightful things like have his opponent in a stretch hold or a head/arm lock and then would just grind his knuckles over their face. A typical Danielson match also climaxes with a lot of MOVEZ and nearfalls, and to be fair, so does a big Omega match. With Bryan, there will usually be a big tope, a top rope spot, suplexes, some bombs and counters, etc. You saw glimpses of that with the top rope back suplex from him. Omega did that too. In fact, without going into his case, a lack of moves isn't an issue with Omega at all. 

To me, why this match was perfect, and why what they did was so impressive, was the fact that they gave enough (imo) while making it clear that they had a lot left in the tank. It was a flawless setup match for a PPV rematch. As someone said, achieving something like that is often more difficult than simply having a great match. 

With the Omega V-triggers, it's just something you have to buy with his matches. He hits nasty knees to the head often which look devastating, and they just don't pin the other person or even completely change the momentum of the match - apart from the ramp V-trigger. They are a "signature move" as my cousin who plays the WWE video games informs me, something akin to an Angle slam. I don't like it, but then Omega has never been one of my wrestlers, so I am not the right person to really explain it.

[El-P]

45 minutes ago, Jimmy Redman said:

So my question is, is this a typical Kenny Omega match?

No. Kenny Omega has no typical match, although if you know your Kenny Omega you'll know what details he's working in and what sequences he is building and how he is building his stuff. But you'll watch him working against Fénix or Christian and you'll get two quite different approaches (or with Mox in a barb-wire gimmick match, or with young underdog Jungle Boy, or with big-ass hoss Moose). The V-Triggers are just a weapon. Omega's style is stiff Japanese style. Shots look like they fucking kill you, like say Ishii's chops or.... well, Danielson's kicks. So of course you're gonna get a lot of those. And if you believe they aren't doing anything, you're not looking at it the right way (they are not gonna lay down selling forever because of the accumulative damage, that's not what it's about, that's not what they are aiming for, obviously, because if they wanted to do so well they would do it). This match was very much Japanese style when I think about it. I mean, Danielson's big thing was wanting to work that style, he wants to do the G1, so...

45 minutes ago, Jimmy Redman said:

So maybe it's me and the house style, so to speak, has passed me by since the mid-2010s. 

Yes.   Never ever too late to catch up though. I was at the same point in 2015 when I began to catch up with the current stuff. I just did not get it because my mind was programmed  and biased toward what I thought I knew. Took me a bit of time (a few years, honestly, I think I really got pretty much in-synch in about 2018) to adjust, and also, and that was no easy thing, to leave behind a bunch of confirmation bias about "how it's supposed to be done" (which always basically come down to "I'm not used to this/I don't get it therefore it sucks", I can see plenty of that in old posts of mine from the early-mid 10's, and that includes guys like Cena at one point then BTW). I mean, first times I saw Omega and the Bucks in 2015 I *hated* them, like truly hated them, my first posts about these guys back then are sadly the most stereotypical stuff than I still see today about them (which of course annoys me to no end because what you hate the most in other people is always your own flaws ). Today I consider Omega as a GOAT contender and the Bucks to me are the GOAT team and probably some of the most brillant workers I've ever seen, like, smarter than anyone, just ahead of the curve on every aspect of the game (which is why they annoy so many people, including me at one point).

I'm honestly not sure what to tell you if you did not think it looked like a pro-wrestling match... I mean, I wonder what you'd think about that insane G1 Climax match last year between Ibushi and Taichi which consisted at 99% of *kicks to the legs* ! I kid not not. Of course this was a once in a lifetime experiment and just an out of this world experiment is minimalism (if you can call it that), and that's taking things to the extreme, but that was also a great, great pro-wrestling match. In this case, well, I could understand the question "Where are the moves ?", but then again, not really. The moves are right there. This is pro-wrestling, and really the state of the art pro-wrestling in 2021. Doesn't get much better than that (well, Ishii vs Takagi was even better though, and talk about shots that would kill galore !).

[Mad Dog]

I slightly disagree. i think there is a Kenny Omega match but it's well disguised. He does have a match but he works his match around his opponents offense and strengths while also incorporating the stipulations. He's kind of the anti-Seth Rollins in a lot of ways. With Rollins, he works his match to the detriment of everything around him but with Omega the beats of his matches are often the same but he changes it up a lot.

I think where Omega excels is at pacing and vulnerability. He paces his match and he often surprises me with say a 25 minute match that doesn't feel that way. He's also good at giving you moments of doubt even when you know he's going to win.

[Jmare007]

The fact they did a more strike based match was for the better. If they decided to focus on a body part and started doing holds and shit, more people would've been frustrated that initial work was mostly meaningless (it's one of my main issues with a lot of New Japan's more tauted matches) because they for sure were gonna have the same match they did after the commercial break, as that was what that crowd was expecting and wanted to see. 

Hell, Danielson DID work the arm for a little bit at the start but it was quickly dropped once Kenny was back on top, after that it was solely strikes and big moves. Which as MoS and El-P said, it's basically what most of the Japanese heavyweight style is about. That's been the case for a hell of a lot longer than mid 2010's though. 

@Jimmy Redman the wrestling holds weren't there so you are not gonna get a "good" answer to that question. The style of the match they had was exactly what people wanted and it was actually a lot more restrained than what they'll most likely do in the future.

As El-P said, Danielson wants to have these types of matches with certain people (with others, it will be almost solely mat work and strikes, like his matches with Gulak) and Omega is better suited for this style too.

I'm on the opposite end of @Mad Dog. I was really impressed at how Kenny paced himself here, he showed the type of restraint I wasn't expecting from him and most importsntñy, he kept me engaged when things were really slow, I think that's a first for me. I usually an bored to tears with him in control and the first half of his matches. 

[El-P]

5 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

I slightly disagree. i think there is a Kenny Omega match but it's well disguised. He does have a match but he works his match around his opponents offense and strengths while also incorporating the stipulations.

Yes that's more like it. When I said there was no typical Kenny Omega match, I'd rather have said there isn't a stereotypical or formulaic Kenny Omega match. Totally agree with the "well disguised" point, that sounds very accurate to me (and a credit to that man's brillant mind)

5 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

I think where Omega excels is at pacing and vulnerability. He paces his match and he often surprises me with say a 25 minute match that doesn't feel that way. He's also good at giving you moments of doubt even when you know he's going to win.

Yup. There was no way Jungle Boy was beating him, but he managed to make it absolutely believable it could happen.

[El-P]

7 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

As El-P said, Danielson wants to have these types of matches with certain people (with others, it will be almost solely mat work and strikes, like his matches with Gulak) and Omega is better suited for this style too. Hell, I was really impressed at how he paced himself, he showed the type of restraint I wasn't expecting from him. 

He also showed tons of restraint (but not the same kind) working with Christian Cage, because he obviously knew there was no way 48 years old Christian was working the kind of match he would have with Jungle Boy for instance, or any kind of japanese style pacing really. The guy is just a master in knowing exactly what to do depending on the context (which matters too) and the abilities of his opponents.

[NintendoLogic]

I remain puzzled by how anyone who loves Danielson can be left cold by Omega. I can see it if you're only familiar with his work as Daniel Bryan, but indy Danielson is the exact same shit in terms of match length, big moves, and near falls. The main difference is that a Danielson match is more likely to feature limb work that ends up meaning nothing. I like Omega best when he's destroying ex-WWE guys in their 40s with suplexes and V-Triggers, so bring on Omega/Punk.

[C.S.]

5 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

I remain puzzled by how anyone who loves Danielson can be left cold by Omega.

That's a very easy answer.

Mind you, I like Omega, but:

1. Bryan Danielson never looks goofy. Kenny Omega almost always does. If Danielson ever acts goofy, it tends to be actually funny. Omega is rarely funny even when he's trying to be.

2. Bryan Danielson may have had the outrageous lumberjack beard, but he never at any point looked like Lemmy and Blue Meanie had an illicit tryst and produced a baby. Kenny Omega looks like that baby right now.

3. Bryan Danielson would never, ever, ever imitate Urkel's "Did I dooooo thaaaaaat?" during a PPV main event and World Title match. Omega did.

I won't veer into absurd Cornette territory by mentioning wrestling 9-year-old girls or blow-up dolls, because that's irrelevant anyway - it was a different point in Omega's career, in front of a different culture, etc.

Overall, Danielson is more believable in the ring, on the mic, and as a character. There's no winking, nodding, chewing the scenery, breaking the fourth wall, or acting like he's "too cool for the room" while coming across as the exact opposite.

I can like Kenny - and I do - and all of that can still be true.

[El-P]

46 minutes ago, C.S. said:

1. Bryan Danielson never looks goofy. Kenny Omega almost always does. If Danielson ever acts goofy, it tends to be actually funny. Omega is rarely funny even when he's trying to be.

Different strokes for different people. I find Omega to be funny. And yes, he's goofy and kooky. That's him.

46 minutes ago, C.S. said:

2. Bryan Danielson may have had the outrageous lumberjack beard, but he never at any point looked like Lemmy and Blue Meanie had an illicit tryst and produced a baby. Kenny Omega looks like that baby right now.

You say that like it's a bad thing ! He's going for an outrageous and ridiculous (because he's kooky) heel look, so fuck yes Lemmy X Blue Meany is actually awesome.

But that's really not the point that was made, Stacey referred to the work style. Danielson & Omega definitely come from the same mindset and culture, with some differences of course, Omega having the heavy legit main event Japanese experience while Danielson only worked a few times over there or against Japanese guys in an US indy environment that was itself very much influenced by it, but the love for modern japanese style is basically what made the match what it was in term of style (hence the exchange of heavy chops and kicks etc...).