AEW TV 06/08 - 06/10 Lots of fuckery tonight bubbas!

[Rah]

*laughs in CMLL*

[Jesse Ewiak]

3 hours ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

Cole and company had been on top in NXT for a really long time when AEW first started. They were already tired as top guys along with Gargano and Chiampa. AEW was hot and new and Janella wasn't on top. Omega, Jericho, the Bucks, and Cody were.

No offense, but it's getting to be hilarious to read people walking tightropes trying to reconcile their hatred of Cole with his popularity. I think people should just admit that they're projecting their HBK hate onto him. Especially cause he looks like him if he was shrunk in the dryer.

I mean, I was being somewhat hyperbolic for comedic effect, but the reality was, the "push Adam Cole as the top guy" was tried, and it lost decisively to AEW, and now I find it very odd Adam Cole is being claimed as this uber-popular guy when the actual ratings when the whole brand was built around him simply shows nothing of that sort. This isn't a Steve Austin/Foley/etc. situation where they weren't used properly - Cole was one of the main pillars of the NXT run against AEW and it failed, absolutely. 

As for disliking people - there are plenty of people on the AEW roster I have an antipathy for, but most of the main event picture, well I guess, the people who should be part of the main event picture (Mox, Omega, Bryan, etc.) can be argued as actually being somewhat of a draw and even Punk was initially a draw, but seems to have been hurt by weird booking, as seen by the Rampage ratings.

4 hours ago, strobogo said:

I think if we're being fair, that applies to all but like maybe 5 people on TV in American pro wrestling in 2022.

Sure, that's basically true, but the issue is people were making the defense of Cole at the top by saying, basically, "too bad, he's really over, so it's right Tony should push him," when there's no evidence of that fact. If people want to say they like Adam Cole, and they're fine w/ him being pushed at the top, fine, that's subjective. You can want whomever you want to be pushed at the top. But, if you make a business argument about Cole being pushed at the top, have some actual evidence beyond people chant along with him. 

Now, as a side note I think a big part of why there's all this open disagreement over the booking and some discontent, even among AEW fans (of which I would not count myself as one), is because there's this slow realization after the summer where all the big guns came in, and people were fantasy ratings booking Dynamite actually passing up RAW that it turned out all those big guns weren't those actual big of guns, and despite proclamations to the contrary, Punk & Danielson weren't the modern equivalent of Hall & Nash jumping, and also, there's a large swath of the AEW fanbase that never wanted much of the NXT leftovers as Tony Khan does.

 

[Jesse Ewiak]

Sorry - double post

[Dav'oh]

4 hours ago, Jesse Ewiak said:

the 2020's indy crowd

Seems like a backhanded attempt to denigrate AEW by calling it an indy. Or was NXT 1.0 the indy fans you were referring to? Because they were "HOOOOOOOOO"-ing "BAY-BAY"-ing along there, too. If anything, the stand-alone WWE is truly "independent", given the number of promotions AEW works with...

 

4 hours ago, PeteF3 said:

When has PWO ever concerned itself with who's popular when actually reviewing shows

"Wrestler X is over as fuck! Give him ALL the belts!" "They've been pushing Wrestler Y for ages and they're still not over. Move them to Dark for a while."

Even you, 

4 hours ago, PeteF3 said:

it's not just that Adam Cole sucks, which he does

is a comment on his popularity - he's not popular with you.

[Tetsujin]

I don't understand the O' Reilly hate around here, dude has been a really good wrestler for a long time now and never had a strong main event run which he deserved some time ago in ROH, I'm happy he's been booked well in AEW. Mox's victory was obvious anyway, so just put him against a fresh match up for him that can be great, and KOR delivered. I admit the battle royal itself was kind of a mesa, but overall no problem with that part of the show...

... But them making another fucking title is so stupid, man. I've always hated the concept of an "intercontinental" championship, like, is it supposed to represent the best outside the US? And therefore the WORLD championship represents the best in the US? And you tellin me the first has less value than the last? Doesn't make sense at all, and never has. And I'm one who thinks that secondary championships as we understand them do not make sense at this point anymore, but hey that just might be me.

But seriously, championships should have a strong concept behind them in order to exist. World title? The best guy, got it. Tag titles? The best at that kind of wrestling, got it. Development title? The one for young and promising rookies in order to rise to the bigger leagues, got it. Women title/tag titles/development title? For ladies when you don't want to make your product intergender, got it. But, the TNT title? The one for the TV shows? But the world champ is already on tv every week. This new Atlantic title? The one above every other wrestler in the countries around the Atlantic ocean? That sounds a lot like a WORLD champion to me but whatever...

Really liked Wardlow's motivation to not go for the interim bullshit. The champ is Punk so until he arrives, he doesn't give a fuck. And that's exactly what I think about all of this.

Didn't watch the rest of the show yet but wanted to give my thoughts with all this stuff. AEW is having some (each time more frequent) weird booking choices and I don't like the tendency I'm appreciating.

[Dale Wolfe]

4 hours ago, Jesse Ewiak said:

Now, as a side note I think a big part of why there's all this open disagreement over the booking and some discontent, even among AEW fans (of which I would not count myself as one), is because there's this slow realization after the summer where all the big guns came in, and people were fantasy ratings booking Dynamite actually passing up RAW that it turned out all those big guns weren't those actual big of guns, and despite proclamations to the contrary, Punk & Danielson weren't the modern equivalent of Hall & Nash jumping, and also, there's a large swath of the AEW fanbase that never wanted much of the NXT leftovers as Tony Khan does.

 

Its a fair point. While AEW TV at it's best is still head and shoulders above modern RAW/Smackdown (not saying much really), a lot of its top tier are still people who have been in WWE for years and weren't setting the world alight so to speak. 

Punk did have his pipebomb phase and the Danielson "yes" era did decent business too, i believe, but it was also part of a much stronger, more popular product. Unless AEW hit on a genuine top-tier original star with no WWE baggage then its hard to see massive changes in their casual perception or success i think. Plus both these big eras were years ago

It is a good show but that's all it is at the moment. They should focus less on belts and more on some actual storylines

[kas]

Tbf it's a bit hard to find someone with no WWE baggage considering they were the only major promotion in America for years. It's probably why they've chosen Page as their long-term ace, who I think they've done a great job building up.

[Brynn]

Fell asleep watching Dynamite during the main event. Moxley vs KOR was fine and nothing against KOR but the outcome of that was totally predictable. It was a fine match though. I think I'm more excited to see Will Ospreay even thought I'm an extremely causal viewer of New Japan. I'm only familiar with him for some matches there but mostly for his matches in ROH. 

Next week's Dynamite should be pretty wild with Wardlow destroying 20 geeks, Jericho vs. Ortiz in a Hair vs. Hair match and the three-way ladder match.

[strobogo]

7 hours ago, Jesse Ewiak said:

I mean, I was being somewhat hyperbolic for comedic effect, but the reality was, the "push Adam Cole as the top guy" was tried, and it lost decisively to AEW, and now I find it very odd Adam Cole is being claimed as this uber-popular guy when the actual ratings when the whole brand was built around him simply shows nothing of that sort. This isn't a Steve Austin/Foley/etc. situation where they weren't used properly - Cole was one of the main pillars of the NXT run against AEW and it failed, absolutely. 

As for disliking people - there are plenty of people on the AEW roster I have an antipathy for, but most of the main event picture, well I guess, the people who should be part of the main event picture (Mox, Omega, Bryan, etc.) can be argued as actually being somewhat of a draw and even Punk was initially a draw, but seems to have been hurt by weird booking, as seen by the Rampage ratings.

Sure, that's basically true, but the issue is people were making the defense of Cole at the top by saying, basically, "too bad, he's really over, so it's right Tony should push him," when there's no evidence of that fact. If people want to say they like Adam Cole, and they're fine w/ him being pushed at the top, fine, that's subjective. You can want whomever you want to be pushed at the top. But, if you make a business argument about Cole being pushed at the top, have some actual evidence beyond people chant along with him. 

Now, as a side note I think a big part of why there's all this open disagreement over the booking and some discontent, even among AEW fans (of which I would not count myself as one), is because there's this slow realization after the summer where all the big guns came in, and people were fantasy ratings booking Dynamite actually passing up RAW that it turned out all those big guns weren't those actual big of guns, and despite proclamations to the contrary, Punk & Danielson weren't the modern equivalent of Hall & Nash jumping, and also, there's a large swath of the AEW fanbase that never wanted much of the NXT leftovers as Tony Khan does.

 

I think the main complaint about the booking is that there have only been a handful of actual storylines going on, one of them is bad and no one likes it, and an overreliance on tournaments and gimmick matches. Most shows in the past month or two straight up feel like EWR auto generated card. TK is clearly spread too thin and needs some help with booking and creative. You can only do the lights out ECW surprise debut and random international stars with no angles or storylines like 1997 Nitro so many times. I don't think it has anything to do with Dynamite not overtaking Raw in TV ratings. 

[KawadaSmile]

The issue with KOR winning is that the subsequent Mox match had nothing of intriguing past "yeah it's gonna be good". Yuta or even Darby winning would be more interesting choices.

What @strobogo just said about there not being enough storylines is true. Last night we had the whole Interim Belt kerfuffle (which already took a huge part of the show), Wardlow beefing with security guards, Forbidden Dorks appearing to mess with FTR and Trent, and the seeds for Storm/Rosa.

It's really not much, and most of those things seem to be one and done, specially the ones building to FD. As it is, it feels like they *just* have the in-ring action to offer.

[KawadaSmile]

Also, I'm confused about Wardlow's reasoning. He says he doesn't want to beat anyone but Punk for the belt, but isn't the Interim Title the fastest way to get to him? 

[Stiva]

I’m away so didn’t watch and have only read recaps but I was completely bemused reading them and having read the opinions of people who actually watched the show, I’m still none the wiser. What is the obsession with tournaments? Did they even show the bracket for this one? Why is there no qualifying matches for an actual title that will be defended when there were qualifying matches for a yearly tournament belt? Why wasn’t Wardlow in the battle royal when his record is better than everyone else’s? Maybe I’ll have a different opinion when I watch the show myself but this is starting to feel more and more like a real scattershot promotion by the week

[sek69]

I think the big issue here is AEW is clearly not built to do PPVs back to back like this, and it's messed with the booking as a result. Sure Punk getting injured was a "shit happens" moment that required some last minute scrambling, and doing a joint show with NJPW is too good to pass up.....but doing another big show a month after one of their big PPVs is not how this company was configured. AEW works best when long term stories build to a crescendo after months of twists and turns, not the WWE style "hey it's June so everyone has to be excited about this months PPV because reasons".

[Embrodak]

Well it doesn’t help that the build is NJPW guys just walking out on the entrance ramp and doing a pose.

Tony needs a booking committee, man.

[sek69]

Also NJPW doesn't allow any matches to be officially announced until they run their own show (they do that for their own shows too), which handcuffs how much you can build. 

[Dale Wolfe]

Considering he is a board nerd apparently I'm surprised he isnt just pilfering his tape collection and ripping off all the best storylines from old promotions

[Strummer]

Dynamite was the top rated show on cable last night

[sek69]

Loss made a point that people are hung up on the total viewers and not the actual numbers TV stations look for.

[PeteF3]

1 hour ago, Dale Wolfe said:

Considering he is a board nerd apparently I'm surprised he isnt just pilfering his tape collection and ripping off all the best storylines from old promotions

Well...that's exactly what he's doing.

The problem is, he's booking his TV not like a TV show but like one of those John McAdam compilation tapes he'd get in exchange for doing his website. As in, it's *all* "greatest hits and angles" and almost no filler. But when booking week-to-week TV, you *can't* do wall-to-wall "great matches" and angles if you want any of them to stand out. You need to have the bulk of your interviews go off normally so that it actually matters if one gets interrupted. You may need to actually do DQs to show that there are consequences for cheating and interfering (or dispense with the gaga entirely if you're insistent on all decisive finishes). I know it's a TV-based product now and those old tapes were a live event-based product, and I'm not saying he needs to "slack off" and intentionally hold back, but not every interview needs an interruption and not every match needs a post-match beatdown or staredown or confrontation.\

Tony has a habit of picking one of those old angles--Sammy Guevara smashing up Dan Lambert's car or belt is right out of the Memphis studio--but not really managing to get there organically. It's, "Let's have Sammy smash up Lambert's car just like Lawler with Dundee or DiBiase with Duggan" and then it's left at that to be inserted into the show. There's little, "How can we build to the point where Sammy smashes up Dan Lambert's car?" Instead of, "Hey, let's build up Marina Shafir over the course of a few weeks and then book an attack to set her up for a title match against Thunder Rosa," it's "I want to book Rosa vs. Shafir this week, so let's pre-tape an angle to air after we've announced the match and then book the attack after the match is over."

A lot of AEW is built on a gross misinterpretation of Eddie Graham's "seven course meal" of wrestling card booking. A proper seven course meal is not a burrito followed by a steak followed by vegan lasagna followed by chicken parmesan followed by...The courses have to build and build and maybe back off a bit at times--appetizer to salad to main course to palate cleanser to second course to dessert, etc., and serve different functions instead of being a smorgasbord of fans "picking what they like."

Look, I watch Dynamite every week and Rampage some weeks (since Rampage often conflicts with work). I order most of the PPVs. I like the product, and I don't think things are so bad that Tony has to reinvent the wheel here. But some of his booking problems have really started to become more glaring ever since Revolution, and last night's Dynamite in particular I found to be a clunker--a great main event, albeit one I didn't particularly care to see, saved it from being one of the worst episodes in the show's history.

[SirEdger]

7 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

Also, I'm confused about Wardlow's reasoning. He says he doesn't want to beat anyone but Punk for the belt, but isn't the Interim Title the fastest way to get to him? 

I think Wardlow's rationale here is that he wants to go straight away for Punk for his first AEW World title and not the interim one. 

[sek69]

SRS reported Adam Cole has been working with a torn labrum, which would explain why he's gotten smaller as of late as that would keep someone from being able to work out much. 

[strobogo]

I had a torn labrum. Took about a year before I could even fully lift my arm above my head without feeling like something was going to burst.

[KawadaSmile]

Wait, from what I could gather he's been dealing with that injury since the Adam Page feud. Given how miserable that injury is, I'm really questioning him winning a whole damn tournament, and possibly working Forbidden Door. Just let the dude rest and heal.

[sek69]

Between Cole's shoulder, Omega working high quality matches in 3 different promotions while being held together with duct tape and wishes, and Jeff Hardy doing a motherfuckin' ladder match despite looking like a zombie at the PPV, its safe to say pro wrestlers are insane.

[Embrodak]

9 hours ago, PeteF3 said:

Well...that's exactly what he's doing.

The problem is, he's booking his TV not like a TV show but like one of those John McAdam compilation tapes he'd get in exchange for doing his website. As in, it's *all* "greatest hits and angles" and almost no filler. But when booking week-to-week TV, you *can't* do wall-to-wall "great matches" and angles if you want any of them to stand out. You need to have the bulk of your interviews go off normally so that it actually matters if one gets interrupted. You may need to actually do DQs to show that there are consequences for cheating and interfering (or dispense with the gaga entirely if you're insistent on all decisive finishes). I know it's a TV-based product now and those old tapes were a live event-based product, and I'm not saying he needs to "slack off" and intentionally hold back, but not every interview needs an interruption and not every match needs a post-match beatdown or staredown or confrontation.\

Tony has a habit of picking one of those old angles--Sammy Guevara smashing up Dan Lambert's car or belt is right out of the Memphis studio--but not really managing to get there organically. It's, "Let's have Sammy smash up Lambert's car just like Lawler with Dundee or DiBiase with Duggan" and then it's left at that to be inserted into the show. There's little, "How can we build to the point where Sammy smashes up Dan Lambert's car?" Instead of, "Hey, let's build up Marina Shafir over the course of a few weeks and then book an attack to set her up for a title match against Thunder Rosa," it's "I want to book Rosa vs. Shafir this week, so let's pre-tape an angle to air after we've announced the match and then book the attack after the match is over."

A lot of AEW is built on a gross misinterpretation of Eddie Graham's "seven course meal" of wrestling card booking. A proper seven course meal is not a burrito followed by a steak followed by vegan lasagna followed by chicken parmesan followed by...The courses have to build and build and maybe back off a bit at times--appetizer to salad to main course to palate cleanser to second course to dessert, etc., and serve different functions instead of being a smorgasbord of fans "picking what they like."

Look, I watch Dynamite every week and Rampage some weeks (since Rampage often conflicts with work). I order most of the PPVs. I like the product, and I don't think things are so bad that Tony has to reinvent the wheel here. But some of his booking problems have really started to become more glaring ever since Revolution, and last night's Dynamite in particular I found to be a clunker--a great main event, albeit one I didn't particularly care to see, saved it from being one of the worst episodes in the show's history.

It’s either that a lot of this stuff is stuff he didn’t experience in real time, so he doesn’t quite realize how spread out a lot of it really was, or his presumable ADHD gets in the way, or he thinks WWE, WCW, ECW, and TNA have blown everyone’s expectations so far past plausibility that it’s stupid to even try. But I agree, it’s hard for me to get invested in AEW because there’s barely any sense of normalcy that any of the storylines feel like some kind of a deviation from. “The most dangerous place in wrestling - BACKSTAGE!” bounces around my head a lot.