Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[sek69]

19 minutes ago, The Man in Blak said:

How often were people calling Page's title reign a flop or a disappointment on this board over the last few months? He got to ride the wave of one of the best long-term storylines in AEW history, got two wins over Danielson as a champion, and where did he end up?

His reign was a disappointment because he took paternity leave at the exact time he was at his hottest, and by the time he came back a bunch of hot names were signed and he got lost in the shuffle. 

[The Man in Blak]

3 minutes ago, sek69 said:

His reign was a disappointment because he took paternity leave at the exact time he was at his hottest, and by the time he came back a bunch of hot names were signed and he got lost in the shuffle. 

Didn't he take paternity leave before he won the belt?

[SirEdger]

He did, yes, as he missed All Out last year but that's exactly when Bryan Danielson and Adam Cole showed up and the attention went to them afterwards. Hangman didn't feel as scorching hot as he was before the paternity leave once he returned.

[Jmare007]

 

27 minutes ago, The Man in Blak said:

How often were people calling Page's title reign a flop or a disappointment on this board over the last few months? He got to ride the wave of one of the best long-term storylines in AEW history, got two wins over Danielson as a champion, and where did he end up?

And how hard was it really for AEW to rise above Impact and the shambling husk of ROH to become the No.2 promotion in North America? Punk talked about how Page jeopardized the promotion's first million dollar house - whether you agree with him or not, what does that say about the financial success of the company before he was signed?

When it comes to the Bucks, they seem to be a case of Schrodinger's EVPs - are they just guys with "vanity titles" (as it's been argued here and elsewhere) or are they incredibly successful front office people that created a ton of jobs in wrestling, as Meltzer suggested? If it's the latter, how do they not bear some responsibility along with TK for not getting in front of this nonsense and de-escalating things before it exploded?

 

1.- Wait, how does he get to "ride the wave" of a storyline he was a major player in? So people would've just paid to see any other guy in Page position? Do we have any sort of evidence to back that up?

2.- Becoming a successful n°2 promotion, with profits that haven't been made in 25 years is very hard, facts show that. It sure is bigger than anything Punk ever did in his career, considering AEW was already established and making good money before he got there. They did very big gates and PPVs with more than 110,000 buys before Punk got there, so yeah, they were very successful considering no other wrestling promotion in 20 years was able to do that before them.

3.- I mean, they did give ROH their biggest houses, they were a huge part of All In being a major success and were instrumental in getting Tony Khan to dump the money necessary to get AEW started. Again, that's more than Punk ever did in his career without the juggernaut of WWE's "the brand is the main draw" behind him. And they did it by doing shit a lot us never thought would work, let alone draw THAT many people and money.

If we are going to suggest that Punk's comments had merit when it came to downplaying Page and "The EVPs" success (which Omega is a part of too and I hope we don't have to argue about that dude's career). Then we for sure have to put a mirror on Punk and ask what has he achieved in his career to demand so much respect then. Because if what Page+EVPs isn't impressive, then neither is Punk's. I find both of those notions to be ridiculous tbh.

[sek69]

19 minutes ago, The Man in Blak said:

Didn't he take paternity leave before he won the belt?

It was widely expected he was going to win the belt at the PPV before he left, and all the storylines seemed to point in that direction. 

Not to say he shouldn't have putting his family first, but the timing of it absolutely sucked for him career wise. 

[strobogo]

Punk saying these guys haven't done anything in the business

 

 

My brother in Christ, you're getting paid seven figures in the company they created

[Embrodak]

To be clear, if I recall correctly, he said the EVPs couldn’t manage a Target, and he said Adam Page had never done anything in the business. I don’t think he meant to conflate those two sets of claims, and I don’t think it’s wrong to say that Adam Page, however over he was at any given time, was pretty ancillary to any success they had.

[PeteF3]

3 hours ago, sek69 said:

From what I gather (and from what Punk has said), he seemed to have an expectation folks would be coming to him for advice/listening to his wisdom and got salty when that didn't happen. Which granted sounds incredibly petty and dumb, but *gestures wildly at AEW*

He was/is probably less of an asshole about it, but Regal has tweeted publicly that some guys in AEW are too busy on their phones when they should be studying and seeking advice when in the locker room. Punk may be an asshole but he may not be wrong about this per se.

[sek69]

Maybe they aren't seeking out advice but it's not like they have any obligation to do so other than the Olde Timey Rasslin' Code. 

If people don't want to hear Punk or Regal's advice, they don't have to. It's their loss/gain. The idea that they somehow MUST do this is kind of arrogant. 

[PeteF3]

Okay, then let's call out Regal for being arrogant, too. Can we at least be consistent with this?

[KawadaSmile]

AEW needs their own Wrestler's Court!

But really, that reminds of me that anecdote in which Punk was trying to be the locker room leader in WWE. People just laughed at him. I imagine a second generation of wrestlers doing the same would piss him off so much.

[sek69]

19 minutes ago, PeteF3 said:

Okay, then let's call out Regal for being arrogant, too. Can we at least be consistent with this?

Absolutely. Someone coming to you for advice should never be seen as something required or mandatory. It should be an honor if someone does, but it's not a failing of that person if they don't. 

[NintendoLogic]

With all due respect to Regal, why should anyone go to him for advice when Bryan Danielson, who actually drew money working a similar style with the handicap of being much smaller, is right there?

[C.S.]

8 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

With all due respect to Regal, why should anyone go to him for advice when Bryan Danielson, who actually drew money working a similar style with the handicap of being much smaller, is right there?

And who trained Danielson?

Yes, Shawn Michaels, but Danielson credits Regal as his true trainer and mentor.

Actually suggesting that no one should go to Regal is pretty absurd. 

[NintendoLogic]

I'm not saying no one should go to Regal for advice. Just that he wouldn't be at the top of the list when a guy who was far more successful working the same style is in the same locker room.

In other news, the press conference for UFC 279 was cancelled after a fight broke out backstage. Talk about life imitating art.

[strobogo]

For some strange reason I bet Regal offering advice is more welcome than Punk offering advice.

[NintendoLogic]

Based on what Regal has said on Twitter and in interviews, his advice would be stuff like "make every spot count" and "don't get dumped on your head." In other words, the same advice every single veteran wrestler gives and every single younger wrestler blows off.

[Al]

Regal tends to mask his comments pretty well and you really need to read between the lines to see what he's addressing. The one thing I would object to are his "on the clock" comments. Being a professional athlete means you work a 24 hour job. If you eat garbage on your off time it's going to affect your performance. You have to constantly monitor your health and be diligent. So if a worker needs mental down time on show day I'm not going to object as long as they're able to perform at show time.

[KawadaSmile]

Those numbers ar Not Good, but you couldn't expect different when they had no main event 4 days prior to the show.

[Outsider]

Scott Colton should be fired. This bs he stirred could cost AEW millions. 

Tony is always trying to appease everybody. I think Tony Khan is a great guy, but he needs a talent relations guy. 

Maybe he can hire that WWE guy who was stealing titles, lol. I forget his name. 

Dork order and their equivalents need to remain off TV. 

I was at Dynamite last year in September,  and haven't wanted to go back since. Everything is cooling off. The inner Circle was great. Now Sammy gets married and nobody cares about him anymore. He was better baby face imo. 

Taz is not very smooth doing commentary. Don Callis is very smooth and witty. 

Don Callis and Tony should be the main guys. Excalibur is OK. And Jim Ross is fine. But Taz is trying to hard. He doesn't seem comfortable. 

MJF is waay over-rated, and he will not draw viewers. 

Andrade has it all. They need to get him in the title picture. 

I don't understand why Swerve and Lee are tag Champs. Acclaimed should have been crowned in Chicago. 

The Acclaimed are great and that's what draws the general audiences. Just like the nWo,  the Acclaimed have that cool factor. 

Tony needs to put his foot down and book the right matches. FTR and Bucks should have been at all out. 

ThunderRosa should have done the right thing and dropped the belt to someone before her "injury." 

It's obvious that she's worried that she won't ever have title opportunity again. 

ROH titles carry no weight anymore. 

I know I'm just stating random thoughts. But I was soo excited about AEW.. and now it's just not fun. 

I hope CM Punk returns ASAP. But he might be over all the bullshit. 

[Jmare007]

1 hour ago, KawadaSmile said:

Those numbers ar Not Good, but you couldn't expect different when they had no main event 4 days prior to the show.

I mean, it's not a bad number either considering it had bad buildup, the main event was given for free two weeks prior and there was A LOT of wrestling during the weekend before this show. 

But I hope it's a wake up call for Tony to tight up the booking and get people to fucking help him once and for all.

[C.S.]

Some hot takes here. My thoughts on a few of them:

41 minutes ago, Outsider said:

Scott Colton should be fired. This bs he stirred could cost AEW millions. 

Why? He may be a disingenuous asshole, according to people who know him or fans who have run into him when the cameras weren't on, but all he did in this case was be a fifth wheel jabroni for The Dark Order.

42 minutes ago, Outsider said:

He [Sammy] was better baby face imo. 

This is a scorcher. There's nothing likable whatsoever about Mr. "I want to rape Sasha Banks" Gueverra.

43 minutes ago, Outsider said:

MJF is waay over-rated, and he will not draw viewers. 

Andrade has it all. They need to get him in the title picture. 

I don't always love MJF's shtick, but I'd push him over Andrade easily.

Andrade brings nothing to the table outside of in-ring performances, and even then, I can't think of one great match he's had in AEW. It more and more feels like his stone cold classic with Johnny Gargano was an anomaly. Nothing he's done before or since in the U.S. has had any impact.

[DMJ]

The # of buys shouldn't necessarily be worrying, but it should be a wake up call, like Jmare said.

I'm not sure what TK, Punk, or Mox were thinking they were accomplishing with that messy, convoluted stunt they pulled two weeks before the show aside from drawing a good TV number (but not really all that good of one). We'll never know if it really hurt or helped - maybe the show would've done even worse without the angle - but the angle angle made me  less likely to purchase the PPV and I ended up passing on it. I wonder if there were more of me out there or the opposite (I'd bet on me). 

I think Danielson/Jericho was a misfire too. I think what people want to see out of Jericho is the "smoke and mirrors." He's the sports entertainer guy. He's in his 50s and looks it. But nonsense, kitchen sink stable war matches? Yes, please. Heated death matches based on blood feuds? Sounds great. The occasional cocky veteran/young underdog dynamic? Jericho can do that. But those are matches and dynamics that are really counter to what people want out of Danielson.

Danielson is the wrestler's wrestler, the technical whiz, and I think the AEW (and many of us here) want to see him in matches that are either "dream matches" or matches that have the potential to be technical classics. I think the live audience wants to be there for matches that people go "Holy shit, that was a 6-star match" for. I think, booked differently, he and Daniel Garcia could've had that match on that show and it would've been a big deal - maybe not necessarily a "draw" as big as Jericho/Danielson is on a marquee, but hey, clearly Jericho/Danielson didn't have much pull either.

The Trios tournament not only felt rushed (with multiple 3-man teams/stables not even in the thing), but it added another title into a company that is full of them. It very much feels, rightly or wrongly, like a vanity title for the Elite to wear. To me, there was nothing exciting about that tournament or the finals that made me say, "I have to see that." 

I can go on and on about how the rest of the card was a mix of "awkwardly built" to outright head-scratching, but I'll stop here. To me, the good news is that they have a real opportunity to course correct right now and hopefully they'll make that happen. Like many here, I like AEW, but I want to love AEW. The build for this PPV was not something I loved and it seems like I wasn't alone.

[C.S.]

Bobby Fish continues to embarrass himself.

He has also, apparently, aged 20 years since his last AEW appearance.

https://www.fightful.com/wrestling/bobby-fish-says-cm-punk-was-c-after-their-match-thinks-punk-s-mma-offense-insulting

[Embrodak]

One thing people haven’t mentioned Re: the crowd at All Out being kind of cold is that they had Dynamite and Rampage there like five days earlier. Between that and the heavy weekend of wrestling, it’s less surprising to me that they weren’t too engaged, especially given how long everyone knew it was going to be.