Jmare007 Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 9 hours ago, rovert said: Who says and who are you talking to? Create a reminder for 6-9 months time for Hobbs specifically. Starks and Hobbs had an incredible angle and then fizzled out with 2 matches. A very weird one of PPV that could've been much better on TV and another one on Rampage that should've been on PPV (Full Gear). It's pretty evident how badly booked they have been since that hot angle. You knowing (or not) future plans does not make up for the fact that in the last 2 months they could've done something special with them and instead it ended up like any other random AEW feud and with both of them off TV for literally no good reason. And the waste of Miro is worse than what WWE did with him, which is saying something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embrodak Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 I didn’t even understand why people thought that was an incredible angle. They did a heel package for Starks, then Hook comes out for some reason to do the open challenge, then Starks loses, then he does a tearful baby face promo, then Hobbs turns on him for reasons that took *weeks* to actually get him on the screen to explain and were, frankly, weak. Starks should already be a credible main eventer, even with the time out for injury, and Hobbs should either be there as well or on the precipice. The notion that that time was better spent on endless Degrassi-level melodrama between Page and the Elite, or Jericho and his shenanigans, is just silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 No one wants to hear my TED Talk about how Punk is absolutely necessary to carry forward Neo-Bret-ism and retake the establishment of struggle and meaning for every single spot, since Dax isn't the guy (as proven by a number of matches including, most recently by the Aussie Open match), and how Page, when driving matches, comes off as the most untrained guy on the AEW roster and the one most rewarded for negative traits and most in need of advice, even if he has many positive qualities as a wrestler and a character too. If you do, I have some long posts on DVDVR I can point you to. That said, it was on Punk to hold it together long enough to inspire the next generation and he didn't. There's just no one else that can carry the torch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embrodak Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 I mean that’s the thing, maybe wrestling didn’t “need” a Punk return, but it sure as fuck needed (and still needs) somebody to do what Punk was doing! Maybe lifting Bret sequences was a hack way of doing it sometimes, but that style is both better to watch and significantly safer than some bastard hybrid of RoH, NJPW, and PWG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 37 minutes ago, Matt D said: since Dax isn't the guy (as proven by a number of matches including, most recently by the Aussie Open match), and how Page, when driving matches, comes off as the most untrained guy on the AEW roster and the one most rewarded for negative traits and most in need of advice, even if he has many positive qualities as a wrestler and a character too. If you do, I have some long posts on DVDVR I can point you to. I would be interested in reading your posts regarding these items Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embrodak Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 Also, Jericho calling Punk a cancer when he is the guy who attaches himself to hot stars and angles and drains them of all their relevance and vitality, and the guy whispering terrible ideas in Tony’s ear as the company pisses away its years of good will trying to build up an RoH brand it was not in fact required to buy, is comical. Punk was making the product demonstrably better with his presence, while Jericho has been making it markedly worse with his self-indulgent bullshit and warmed-over Vinceisms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Rock Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 I won't debate Jericho's efforts to remain relevant haven't involved him shacking up with a hot act (although I'd argue his 2022 is leagues better than his 2021), but I'm also not aware of any stories of him being unprofessional or difficult to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfectly Straightedge Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 42 minutes ago, Embrodak said: Also, Jericho calling Punk a cancer when he is the guy who attaches himself to hot stars and angles and drains them of all their relevance and vitality, and the guy whispering terrible ideas in Tony’s ear as the company pisses away its years of good will trying to build up an RoH brand it was not in fact required to buy, is comical. Punk was making the product demonstrably better with his presence, while Jericho has been making it markedly worse with his self-indulgent bullshit and warmed-over Vinceisms. wow just wow. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 For all his shortcomings and the legit criticisms about him (and I had quite a bit at times), Chris Jericho understands what pro-wrestling is in 2022 better than CM Punk, in probably every way (inside and outside the ring). In the end, who do you think will have *actually* helped more people in their career ? Hell, by the sheer fact of being there at the beginning of AEW and being its most mainstream star and contributing to it getting off the ground and stay sustainable, he was very instrumental in making the US pro-wrestling landscape better for everybody. What has CM Punk done ? He could have jumped from the beginning and help build a second strong company for everyone if he cared that much. He did not. He jumped on the then hot company for a shitload of money and then got grumpy when the guys who actually had built it did not listen to his sage advices. Newsflash : they did not need him, nor his brillance on working a pandering work-a-limb porn with Dustin to actually federate an audience and change the landscape of pro-wrestling. As far as TV rights go, who the hell knows what will happen. But having or not having CM Punk would never have been a deal breaker (he has been their biggest draw, but he was never a game changer kinda biggest draw). Same thing if he goes to WWE. He'll pop ratings and merchandise for sure. But WWE doesn't *need* him per say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 I don't think the cancer comment was at all related to Punk's work or the storylines and angles he's been involved with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blak Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 10 hours ago, El-P said: For all his shortcomings and the legit criticisms about him (and I had quite a bit at times), Chris Jericho understands what pro-wrestling is in 2022 better than CM Punk, in probably every way (inside and outside the ring). I think Punk had a solid understanding of what pro-wrestling is in 2022, but he wasn’t satisfied with it. He wanted to change what pro-wrestling in 2022 could be by reclaiming fundamental basics that had effectively been abandoned, even if that meant going backwards for some people. You’re right that AEW doesn’t “need” Punk - the roster is still absolutely loaded, despite all of this - but it probably needs to at least consider Punk’s approach of changing the company style into something more physically sustainable. Of course, Punk himself wasn’t exactly the best exemplar for that change — he had two of the most poorly timed injuries imaginable during his comeback — so let’s see how Locker Room Leader Chris Jericho, paragon of virtue, stewards what pro-wrestling in AEW/ROH will become while he’s somehow enjoying the best year of his 30+ year career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 Punk became the grumpy old man saying things were better in his day that his younger self would have told to fuck off. On a macro level he's not wrong, there's certainly things you can take from "simpler" approaches. Problem is young folks aren't going to want to hear that noise and ESPECIALLY not from a guy like Punk. I don't blame him for trying but he should have been adult enough to realize not everyone is going to treat it like manna from heaven. It seems like Page from how he says it tried every way he could to let Punk down easy that he wasn't interested in his advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 Punk is an enigma in the sense you'd think he's anti-authority and doesn't follow direction but he's always harboured respect for the older wrestlers. Harley Race, Eddie Guerrero, Raven etc. were all guys he idolised even when Raven wouldn't want to do any of his ideas and would have some of the most basic matches possible. Punk still respected Raven and took a lot of what he said on board because he respected the chain of command. In fact he had a falling out with his original Lunatic Wrestling Federation crew because they didn't take Pro Wrestling seriously enough. They were all untrained Pro Wrestling fans who actually out-drew a lot of the other promotions doing their style but that wasn't good enough for Punk because he wanted something more sustainable. The only person I've heard criticise Punk for his advice is Meltzer, all the other wrestler's were complimentary. The only exception would be Hangman who couldn't recall a single piece of good advice Punk or Sting had given him at the GalaxyCon. However he didn't criticise either guy, he just believed in trying to create his own path and being the champion of the biggest promotion emerge since WCW was proof that it worked out for him. So I could see that offending Punk that one of the top guys is openly saying he won't take advice. By that point, Punk most likely was looking for another reason to hate this guy who went on national television and threw him under the bus. However I don't think Page had enough cache to get away with those comments either. True, he's one of the biggest stars in the company but as his lackluster title reign shows he's still got a lot to learn about working on a national television show in the States as opposed to his other appointments. It wasn't like Page was some huge star before AEW. He was the fall guy of the Elite, a top prospect but still growing into himself all the same. Regardless, based on everything we've seen, Punk is still an unprofessional douche who handled this the worst way imagineable. However the poisoning of the well is a bit rich, capped off by Jericho putting himself over when it was all over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 If we're being honest I think we all kind of knew this is how Punk and AEW would end, the only surprising part is how he speedran it in the course of about a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 One thing that I find funny is that (while I realize that Punk did not only address the Elite) none of the Elite guys are particularly young men. Omega and Matt Jackson are only a couple of years younger than him, even Hangman Page is past 30 and a pro for 14 years. Punk's first retirement was at the age of 33 when he was a 13 year pro. So the comparisons of Punk getting advise from Eddie Guerrero or Raven don't really fit as those were guys of a different generation (okay, the age difference between Punk and those guys might be comparable to the age difference between Punk and Hangman, but when Punk met them he was in his early 20ies and just started out in the business). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 8 minutes ago, Robert S said: One thing that I find funny is that (while I realize that Punk did not only address the Elite) none of the Elite guys are particularly young men. Omega and Matt Jackson are only a couple of years younger than him, even Hangman Page is past 30 and a pro for 14 years. Punk's first retirement was at the age of 33 when he was a 13 year pro. So the comparisons of Punk getting advise from Eddie Guerrero or Raven don't really fit as those were guys of a different generation (okay, the age difference between Punk and those guys might be comparable to the age difference between Punk and Hangman, but when Punk met them he was in his early 20ies and just started out in the business). It's not like he stopped listening to veterans when he became the World Champion in 2008 either. From interviews around that time, their advice and example was always important to him and he clearly grew as a performer from 2008 to 2011. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embrodak Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 11 hours ago, strobogo said: I don't think the cancer comment was at all related to Punk's work or the storylines and angles he's been involved with. I didn’t say it was. Every story we got out of the locker room before the brawl, other than the Cabana rumor, was that Punk was seen as a leader who was trying to bring young guys up, very generous with his time and attention. After the brawl, we got that one report that said Punk watched *everything*, even Dark, which makes sense if Punk was an under-the-table EVP or in the office in some way, as some reports indicated he was. The fact that they’ve settled on a particular narrative exiting all this in order to sweep it into the past, possibly without having even interviewed Ace Steel’s wife, one of the principal witnesses, if that one report is to be believed, doesn’t mean I have to go along with it, nor the clear agenda some parties have in using the fallout to get themselves over. If I have to pick a cancer, I’m going with the Covid-spreading, Capitol-riot-supporting clout shark who is setting an example that “good behavior” in the wrestling business is to buoy your own relevance at the expense of everything else. Punk was self-necrotizing when he buried the company and started a fight, but “cancer”? In terms of what cancer actually does, namely suck up resources and grow itself without contributing anything of value back to the body? In terms of how cancer actually starts, i.e. the mutation of previously functional tissue? Sorry, Chris, but you should maybe talk to the hem/onc specialist that put you on Eliquis, have him take a biopsy of any randomly-selected bit of tissue, see what the findings are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 Hey man, I'm not arguing that Jericho is better than Punk on screen, or really off. Jericho has consistently been the worst part of AEW since day one and I shit on him constantly. I would definitely prefer Punk over Jericho in pretty much all contexts. But there is a difference in Punk working with the young talent, and Punk giving unsolicited advice to the world champ who is a 14 year vet whom he was about to replace as top guy and champion. This is exactly the same situation Punk himself was in in 2011 with Kevin Nash and HHH, and 2013 with The Rock, and boy did he not like that. He can be both helpful and a "cancer" in the locker room if he's rubbing more people wrong than right and bringing a bad attitude and/or drama. Punk was pissed and threatening to leave months before All Out. A couple of months of pissy CM Punk could be a real dark cloud in the locker room. Still, Jericho sucks and I'd rather he be gone over Punk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speaker-to-Animals Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 33 minutes ago, strobogo said: Punk was pissed and threatening to leave months before All Out. If that's true then Punk might have tried one of the most foolhardy and ill-executed power plays in recent wrestling history. Might just be Khan being a historically terrible leader though. 1 hour ago, Embrodak said: in the wrestling business is to buoy your own relevance at the expense of everything else. Like coming back and beating some 20-odd year olds, taking the title off a home grown star over a decade his junior, then agreeing to win the title again knowing he was going to pull a political move with a high likelihood of being suspended, and all this only after waiting to see if the upstart company he did this all in would survive for a few years? 2 hours ago, Big Pete said: It's not like he stopped listening to veterans when he became the World Champion in 2008 either. From interviews around that time, their advice and example was always important to him and he clearly grew as a performer from 2008 to 2011. What is the reported reason Punk lost the belt at Hell in a Cell 2009? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 It was reported at the time that Undertaker had told Punk he should dress in a manner more befitting of a world champion since he was representing the company. Punk replied with something to the effect of "What about John Cena?" When word of this exchange got to the office, the decision was made to take Punk down a peg. This sentence from the Observer is quite ironic in retrospect: "One person who was in the middle of the creative issues since Punk came in described it as a generational and cultural gap between Punk and the older talent, that Punk is perceived as cocky (I’ve had people who are not the jealous types knock him to me and my thought always is that what they describe as far as being confident is what every top guy has, and I think the problem is he has it but even though he’s over, is the champ, and did a good job with the being champ, a lot of wrestlers with more tenure aren’t willing to concede him being at that top level)." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 IIRC the dress code was the source of a lot of frustration in the locker room including Jericho. That may have been something him and Taker disagreed on, that doesn't mean he thought he had it all figured out in 2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmo Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 To take a step in TK's case this feels a little, key word a little, like Craig Kline situation at Fulham. Kline was clearly off the plot but a lot of the lack of communication and unnecessary confrontations feel vaguely similar like we don't know whose in charge, a lot of cliqs with a lot of ideas, and TK not taking charge. More and more I feel like this is really a reflection on TK being in over his head and not putting a strong leadership figure in place to deal with these situations. Now the good news is TK has learned over time and they've had progressively better hires but man it was unpleasant getting there. As far as the situation at moment for me I've been interested in what Punk has been doing with MJF etc and I am just not with the Elite or Jericho so Punk leaving would be a negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 48 minutes ago, Big Pete said: IIRC the dress code was the source of a lot of frustration in the locker room including Jericho. That may have been something him and Taker disagreed on, that doesn't mean he thought he had it all figured out in 2008. I think the NBA enforced their dress code in 2005ish, so I wonder if WWE did it because the NBA did it? I've never thought about it. I do remember a lot of shit coming out about people thinking the NBA dress code was racist because they were trying to get people like Allen Iverson to not be themselves, with a lot of coded language on TV about "thugs." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 Taker talking about "dress code" will always be hilarious to me. And even if it's not related, him standing outside the Cavs locker room with his deadman gear like he was a child asking for candy for Halloween makes it even more funny. And boy, some of you guys really were putting a lot of faith in Punk's Bret-tribute style as some time of game changer. Where were y'all 5 years ago when strong Big Japan was trying to do that for puroresu? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 Someone should make a missing person poster for Miro at this point. Put him on some milk cartons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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