Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[Embrodak]

2 hours ago, sek69 said:

Said owner was in the middle of a press conference so they got the person who's widely seen as Tony's right hand person. I can see the line of thinking that they wanted to bring the person highest up the food chain who wasn't busy at the moment. 

And it couldn’t have waited because….?

[MoS]

2 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

100%. Even before that, something should have been done to clear up the Cabana stuff. After Page’s promo on Punk or Punk’s promo on Page someone should have sat everyone involved down and talked it out. And I think a big part of why Punk was pissed was that no one did. But ultimately that falls on Tony Khan. 

I know you are not going to believe what Dave reported, but he has said clearly that after Page's promo, Page, Punk and TK had a meeting behind closed doors where they all discussed this and Hangman apologised to Punk and everyone thought that was the end of it. Except it was not the end of it, Punk could not get over it because, well, he is CM Punk and that's just who he is, and it culminated with him taking a cheap shot at Page that was 100 times worse than anything Hangman had said. Like, you can argue that Page started this, but proportionality is a thing, both legally and morally. 

[Matt D]

On 10/30/2022 at 10:41 AM, MoS said:

I would be interested in reading your posts regarding these items

You know, I can't find a post that really sums it up well because it was an opinion shaped over a year but you can find me developing it with this search:

http://deathvalleydriver.com/forum/index.php?/search/&q=Page&page=3&quick=1&author=Matt D&search_and_or=and&sortby=newest

But I don't actually suggest it. I do cover some in my SC review of Punk vs Page though.

Spoiler

CM Punk vs.  Adam Page

MD: I am relatively new to Adam Page. I hadn't seen any AEW until Punk and Danielson showed up and it's not like the blog has gone out of its way to cover 2010s NJPW. In fact, given the prevalence of that style in the overall community, one could argue that we went out of our way not to cover it. I like the interviews I hear from Page. I appreciate his social media presence. I admire that the guy has persevered through his issues and has been open with them. I think there are certain things he does very well in the ring. He emotes well. His stuff hits hard and clean. He brings a lot of energy and aggression and dynamism. We all liked the Archer match from earlier this year. In general, though, his matches kind of drive me nuts. He goes straight from punching and chopping to the fallaway slam/kip up/springboard clothesline spot, usually followed by a dive, and he never looks back after that. I don't know if it's taken from an all-bombs NJPW style I'm not familiar or just Brock-ism, and I get that I'm an outlier on both fronts, but the lack of mid-level offense that lets a match build before escalation really gets to me. There absolutely isn't one way to do things and there shouldn't be, but his matches somehow both seem to miss a chunk of something integral while still being overflowing with stuff. 

Meanwhile, CM Punk has been all over the promotion, and he's brought with him this sort of Neo-Bret-ism: slowing things down, fighting hard over the value and payoff of single spot, bringing the bodyslam back into wrestling, heavy focus on limb selling that reoccurs throughout a match and drives narratives, interesting match layouts that work around the commercial breaks. Danielson, on the other hand, has brought a sort of hard-nosed, forward pressing aggression that interfaces with whoever he's in the ring with. It meant that Page's matches with him ended up less of a clash of styles but instead a merging of them. 

In the ring, this match embodied the underlying stories of the program far better than the lead-up or promos or announcers had been able to present them. It felt like a battle between at least what I imagine the AEW of 2019 and 2020 to be and what the AEW of 2022, with a broader roster and more diverse inspirations, seems to be. Page had overcome his demons, overcome the challenges that plagued him in 2019 and 2020 and finally conquered the AEW that he helped create. In the meantime, however, he had taken months off for the birth of his child and the AEW he returned had grown and changed, in ways that were not at all aligned with his norms and values. Despite that, he had overcome Danielson, only to see that CM Punk was in the center of every promotional image, only to watch Punk lay down those bodyslams and start to pull things back to a world that he felt that the Elite had transcended, building back up old idols that they had successfully torn down, just as the successful NJPW of the 2010s didn't resemble the NJPW of the 80s or 90s and as the Young Bucks continuously have immense success tearing down the norms of traditional tag team wrestling. He finally won, finally reached the top of the mountain, only to realize that it wasn't everything he had hoped and dreamed for. He faced down the challenge of Danielson, a physical challenge, one based on hard work and toughness, only to realize that there was a more invasive, more perfidious challenge before him and his kingdom, in the preachings of Punk. And Punk, who was working with all of the younger talent, who was putting the time and effort in, who was trying to be a decent human being no matter how much of a strain it was when he's just naturally a grumpy bastard, didn't see why Page was so upset over a little thing like his heresy. But a king has to defend his kingdom, from ideas most of all, and Punk, more secure in his own skin after all he'd been through, realized he had the higher moral ground for once. And he acted upon it.

So the match, a match still between two crowd-favorites, between two babyfaces, became less about who would win and more about who was right? In the end, that mattered far more to Page than to Punk. Page had his doubts. Punk had arrogant assurance. Punk wanted to win more, but he had his ego and he believed in his values, and he was going to return Page's affronts within the match with ones of his own. As the match went on, it got both of them in trouble. It took both of their eyes off the ball and the fans, otherwise equal, united in expressing their frustration at either when that occurred. You rarely see that in a match where the fans were not booing the wrestlers, but instead passing judgment upon their actions. You'd see it more in older Japanese matches when someone took a liberty. Here it was when they stopped and taunted, when they refused to follow up but basked in the moment instead, when they tried to prove something instead of trying to win. Maybe, just maybe, Page could beat Punk in a wrestling match all things equal. There's no way in the world that Page could win a pissy bitching content with Punk, though. No one could. That's what he chose to fight, and in the end, after he tossed Punk over the table, after he watched Punk stumble about failing to hit Buckshots, after he hit a GTS of his own, he stood there in the center of the ring, belt in hand, living a Wrestlemania 8 Bret vs Piper moment, and completely lost and adrift. How had he gotten there? Who was he anymore? What had he fought so hard for? It certainly wasn't this. He tried to change course, tried to get back onto the path, but it was too late. 

So, yeah, I liked it.

 

[Jmare007]

5 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

 

No source reported it because no one is actually really talking to Punk and getting his side. I'd be surprised if Punk has spoken to any dirtsheet reporter personally. No one has spoken to Ace Steel's wife. I don't know if Ace Steel has spoken to anyone. The only people talking are the Elite and people on their side. 

It's hard not to talk about conspiracies when no one is putting their name to anything. I'm hoping a real journalist will tackle this at some point. I'd like to see an actual report instead of someone just telling me what's in it. I'd like to hear from people that were actually involved instead of someone just telling me what a 'source' said. 

We literally had a report last week that said "we asked Punk's side for comments and we got an answer". That's where Larry being injured and Punk thinking Page would go for business for himself at DoN came out.

You seem to not like reporting when it's from the Elite side (most of what's been out there in the past 6 weeks) but you also don't acknowledge reporting when it's from the Punk side and people either don't believe/wave it off/laugh at it (which is what happened last week with Nick Hausman's story). When that happens, it's hard not to think you'll only accept a report that goes against what's  been out there so far and puts Punk in a better light because it reads like you either don't like what's out there or don't like how people react to what's out there. That's a lose-lose situation.

These type of stories are based off sources, there's no other way to actually attack it unless you hack into the arena's security cameras and leak the footage (if there's even anything that's relevant to the fight). If Ace's wife contradicts what's been said so far, then what? Why would her word be more credible than anyone else's? Only thing that that would generate would be even more arguing and most likely a very toxic rhetoric towards her.

Even stuff like The Elite going with Megha to Punk's lockeroom is something that anyone with rationale would take as a huge dumb mistake by those guys. I know not everyone feels that way but that story has been out there since day 2 and that's not something that shows Kenny and The Bucks in a positive light in my book.

I've been critical of both sides since this thing happened and no amount of reporting has made me think one side was "more wrong" than the other. Both were dumb as fuck and the fact we keep arguing over "yeah but X said they were more at fault!" feels so useless, no?

 

[Flyin' Brian]

Speaking of Montreal, too bad there wasn’t someone there filming like the Wrestling With Shadows crew.

[Flyin' Brian]

1 hour ago, MoS said:

I know you are not going to believe what Dave reported, but he has said clearly that after Page's promo, Page, Punk and TK had a meeting behind closed doors where they all discussed this and Hangman apologised to Punk and everyone thought that was the end of it. Except it was not the end of it, Punk could not get over it because, well, he is CM Punk and that's just who he is, and it culminated with him taking a cheap shot at Page that was 100 times worse than anything Hangman had said. Like, you can argue that Page started this, but proportionality is a thing, both legally and morally. 

I had honestly not seen that reported anywhere. I don’t subscribe or listen to the observer. What Punk did was bad, but I don’t agree it was 100% times worse. They both took an unwarranted personal shot that neither could really defend themselves at the time. Page because he wasn’t there and Punk because he was blindsided and was actually complementing Page in his promo at the time. It wasn’t that kind of feud and came out of nowhere. Sure, Punk could have gone off script in the moment too but that wouldn’t have helped either. I don’t see how it’s a legal or moral issue. Far worse things have happened between wrestlers in and out of the ring and they found ways to coexist afterwards. 

[Flyin' Brian]

56 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

We literally had a report last week that said "we asked Punk's side for comments and we got an answer". That's where Larry being injured and Punk thinking Page would go for business for himself at DoN came out.

You seem to not like reporting when it's from the Elite side (most of what's been out there in the past 6 weeks) but you also don't acknowledge reporting when it's from the Punk side and people either don't believe/wave it off/laugh at it (which is what happened last week with Nick Hausman's story). When that happens, it's hard not to think you'll only accept a report that goes against what's  been out there so far and puts Punk in a better light because it reads like you either don't like what's out there or don't like how people react to what's out there. That's a lose-lose situation.

These type of stories are based off sources, there's no other way to actually attack it unless you hack into the arena's security cameras and leak the footage (if there's even anything that's relevant to the fight). If Ace's wife contradicts what's been said so far, then what? Why would her word be more credible than anyone else's? Only thing that that would generate would be even more arguing and most likely a very toxic rhetoric towards her.

Even stuff like The Elite going with Megha to Punk's lockeroom is something that anyone with rationale would take as a huge dumb mistake by those guys. I know not everyone feels that way but that story has been out there since day 2 and that's not something that shows Kenny and The Bucks in a positive light in my book.

I've been critical of both sides since this thing happened and no amount of reporting has made me think one side was "more wrong" than the other. Both were dumb as fuck and the fact we keep arguing over "yeah but X said they were more at fault!" feels so useless, no?

 

I don’t see anyone saying ‘Punk’s side said this’ much though other than the initial report and the Larry stuff. Everything else has been an avalanche against Punk, supposedly the whole locker room is against him when in reality it’s just a handful of guys. Supposedly he’s a locker room cancer, when before almost everyone had been saying good things about him. He was doing stuff like carpool karaoke. Now all of that is conveniently forgotten because it doesn’t fit the narrative. I like your way of looking at things but I don’t see much ‘both sides’ criticism going on. I guess part of why I’m defending Punk so much is because the majority seem to be piling on. I don’t feel that’s warranted or justified. When I hear the Elite did no wrong and Punk did no good it just really rubs me the wrong way. 

[Flyin' Brian]

2 hours ago, MoS said:

I know you are not going to believe what Dave reported, but he has said clearly that after Page's promo, Page, Punk and TK had a meeting behind closed doors where they all discussed this and Hangman apologised to Punk and everyone thought that was the end of it. Except it was not the end of it, Punk could not get over it because, well, he is CM Punk and that's just who he is, and it culminated with him taking a cheap shot at Page that was 100 times worse than anything Hangman had said. Like, you can argue that Page started this, but proportionality is a thing, both legally and morally. 

I honestly can’t find anything online about a meeting between those 3. I see a meeting between TK and Punk before he cut his promo on Page and an all hands on deck meeting with the entire roster. Can you help me out and point me in the right direction of that?

[Flyin' Brian]

Q5: Chris Jericho vs. Colt Cabana/Death Triangle promo – 880,000 viewers (down 140,000), 361,000 in 18-49 (down 75,000)

They lost 140,000 viewers thanks to their trolling bullshit. Fuck Chris Jericho. Maybe they are smart enough to learn a lesson from that.
 

https://411mania.com/wrestling/ratings-breakdown-for-this-weeks-aew-dynamite-41/

[Johnny Sorrow]

Did Jericho book Cabana as a petty "Oooh we know what that means!" bit that people watching at home were either turned off by or didn't care about or even know about when Cabana came out?

[strobogo]

The giant list of injures or suspended talent really is not mentioned enough when it comes to talking about AEW feeling cold or aimless. Damn near every program from top to bottom in the past year has been knocked off course by injuries and/or personal issues.

A lot of stuff has clearly been rejiggered last second all year, most of it because one side of the storylines suddenly were out of action.

[MoS]

14 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

I honestly can’t find anything online about a meeting between those 3. I see a meeting between TK and Punk before he cut his promo on Page and an all hands on deck meeting with the entire roster. Can you help me out and point me in the right direction of that?

Look for Meltz's Observer and couple of Radio episodes immediately after Punk cut that promo, should be in one of them

[El-P]

I think this is a good sum-up of why AEW doesn't *feel* the same. When it started, there was an enthousiasm about an alternative, a different way to do things, to present pro-wrestling that wasn't the WWE way and an approach that was fan-friendly, honest and transparent toward its audience. This lasted for a good while. But now, in 2022 (and really the first occurence was the MJF stuff, which now seems ages ago), AEW is not that anymore. It's just another pro-wrestling company.

[Flyin' Brian]

7 hours ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

Did Jericho book Cabana as a petty "Oooh we know what that means!" bit that people watching at home were either turned off by or didn't care about or even know about when Cabana came out?

I think it’s the former, but either way it was a mistake. My question is, does AEW learn from it or do they double down? What’s more important to them?

[PeteF3]

4 hours ago, strobogo said:

The giant list of injures or suspended talent really is not mentioned enough when it comes to talking about AEW feeling cold or aimless. Damn near every program from top to bottom in the past year has been knocked off course by injuries and/or personal issues.

A lot of stuff has clearly been rejiggered last second all year, most of it because one side of the storylines suddenly were out of action.

Those injuries and departures would be more palatable if Tony wasn't so steadfast in his commitment to "long-term booking" and would fucking pivot once in awhile. Instead we have storylines put on hold forever because of Rey Fenix's elbow or--as it appears with Miro--Malakai Black's absence. Sometimes you have to chalk up the moment as being lost and move on to something else.

[Gramsci]

Yes, injuries are a big factor, but some of the booking has been atrocious. BCC and JAS have been feuding since May, and it seems like it will never end (and we could say it started 11 months ago if we count Eddie&PnP vs Jericho as the starting point).

[Jmare007]

17 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

I think it’s the former, but either way it was a mistake. My question is, does AEW learn from it or do they double down? What’s more important to them?

I would hope so but I remember Jericho being part of a couple of big quarter hour gains/segments before getting the ROH title so he probably got the green light to do whatever the fuck he wanted with that belt after those metrics. I hope TK pivots but I don't have any faith in that dude.

[Jmare007]

2 minutes ago, Gramsci said:

Yes, injuries are a big factor, but some of the booking has been atrocious. BCC and JAS have been feuding since May, and it seems like it will never end (and we could say it started 11 months ago if we count Eddie&PnP vs Jericho as the starting point).

The most baffling thing about BCC and JAS neverending, horrible feud was that it peaked like 6 weeks in with the Anarchy in the Arena and Blood and Guts matches. Why in the name of fuck did it kept going is something I'll never understand. At first I thought it was TK doing it to propel García but even that was thrown to the bushes with dude staying a heel with Jericho. This feud legit made me stop watching.

[Flyin' Brian]

32 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

I would hope so but I remember Jericho being part of a couple of big quarter hour gains/segments before getting the ROH title so he probably got the green light to do whatever the fuck he wanted with that belt after those metrics. I hope TK pivots but I don't have any faith in that dude.

I was enjoying the Jericho ROH stuff but now it seems we’ve reached the point where they are out of good ideas and don’t want to bring in any other former ROH champions that people want to see. We are back to Claudio and Danielson now as challengers. I also get the feeling there was some ‘owning the libs’ stuff going on with Jericho and as Elon Musk is proving that’s not a successful business plan.

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, Jmare007 said:

matches. Why in the name of fuck did it kept going is something I'll never understand.

Injuries making their biggest matches Jericho vs Moxley/Danielson. 

[KawadaSmile]

Kingston never getting to make Jericho tap at Blood and Guts pisses me off to this day, specially as the feud continued on and on and on and on and he's looked less and less important.

[Matt D]

We should have gotten Kingston vs Claudio shortly after that.

[MoS]

14 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

Q5: Chris Jericho vs. Colt Cabana/Death Triangle promo – 880,000 viewers (down 140,000), 361,000 in 18-49 (down 75,000)

They lost 140,000 viewers thanks to their trolling bullshit. Fuck Chris Jericho. Maybe they are smart enough to learn a lesson from that.
 

https://411mania.com/wrestling/ratings-breakdown-for-this-weeks-aew-dynamite-41/

I did not initially comment on this, cuz statistics like all kinds of figures need context to be meaningful. The absolute number of viewers gained or lost isn't nearly as relevant or important as judging how a segment performed contextually compared to recent trends, because there are so many extraneous factors involved. 

Well, Wrestlenomics have done the analysis for me, God bless them, and yeah, you were right: not only did they lose viewers, that quarter performed significantly worse than what that quarter has been doing recently. The following is a nerdy chart detailing how each segment of this Dynamite behaved vis-a-vis general segments in that time slot. The answer is clearly that it did terribly, not just absolutely but also relatively. It lost far far more viewers than what that quarter generally does. It's really really difficult to argue that this Colt surprise thing did not work out business-wise. 

Maybe TK will draw some conclusion from this. Maybe he won't. Maybe he wll analyse all significant factors here. Maybe he won't. Maybe he will disagree with us saying these are significant factors. Maybe he won't. But a stats nerd like TK should surely appreciate this information. 

Honestly, the best possible way out of this is to pit Punk against the EVPs in an actual proper money-drawing feud, and let them come up with the details. Call me a mark, but I feel that despite their diametrically opposite philosophies, they will make so much money and provide fans with so much excellent pro wrestling that the alliance will be worth it, regardless of personal feelings felt by each side.

 

[Johnny Sorrow]

7 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

I think it’s the former, but either way it was a mistake. My question is, does AEW learn from it or do they double down? What’s more important to them?

My point is, I doubt Jericho decided to book Cabana. That seems like a TK call.

[Embrodak]

20 minutes ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

My point is, I doubt Jericho decided to book Cabana. That seems like a TK call.

Tony doesn’t delegate enough, but I think it is probably safe to assume that he is probably pretty permeable to advice and suggestions.