Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[NintendoLogic]

Isn't Dax's shoulder pretty much held together by silly string?

[cad]

1 hour ago, Flyin' Brian said:

It kind of sucks how things have changed. Instead of great teams doing business and both getting over it's too much about keeping spots, making sure they are seen as the best, and that their style is seen as the 'right' one.

Those first two items there aren't really new, are they? Wrestlers have fought tooth and nail to protect their spots for just about as long as wrestling has existed.

I agree with you on the last one, though. I have no idea why fans would want to rate wrestlers by their influences, but that's what's happening and naturally guys are going to push their inspirations as hard as they can. I remember Sasha Banks talking about how she was watching some Eddy Guerrero in preparation for some big match she had and thinking it was the lamest thing ever. She knew what she was doing I guess.

[El-P]

2 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

It kind of sucks how things have changed. Instead of great teams doing business and both getting over it's too much about keeping spots, making sure they are seen as the best, and that their style is seen as the 'right' one.

 

Yeah. That is *actually* what happens.

I'm pretty sure a lot of workers actually shake their head when they read stuff that is basically fanfics from angry fanboys. Hell, even when Dax is just sharing something that is super important for him and dear to his heart, you got comments being all pissy about the Bucks and whatnot, not realizing the guy who they *think* they support (but infact do not but pretend to because it validates their own little tribalist biased opinion about "what pro-wrestling should be") is just giving them the biggest praise ever.

As far as the "tribute act" line, you people realize that the Bucks wanted to work with FTR for ever (and vice-versa) when they were in WWE and basically built a potential dream match for themselves (and  everybody else) ? It's like Omega and Ospreay talking shit about each other for a year straight about wrestling style and such, which is very much ingrained in the Japanese mentality. You really think the Bucks don't know what they owe to who came before ? Seriously ? They are a META tag-team at heart, it's basically exactly where they came from, their entire career is a love letter to those teams who came before them. Fuck, they were doing MX shit in TNA in 2010. 

2 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Isn't Dax's shoulder pretty much held together by silly string?

Yup.

Hey, I'm a HUGE FTR fan and certainly wish they would be more on TV and PPV too. The Acclaimed getting over at that level probably wasn't predictable. Meanwhile, FTR got pretty much 3 MOTYC this year, which has been the best of their career by their own admission, they are working Wrestling Kingdom next year. Not that bad, all things considered.

[Flyin' Brian]

On 11/22/2022 at 12:00 PM, El-P said:

 

Yeah. That is *actually* what happens.

I'm pretty sure a lot of workers actually shake their head when they read stuff that is basically fanfics from angry fanboys. Hell, even when Dax is just sharing something that is super important for him and dear to his heart, you got comments being all pissy about the Bucks and whatnot, not realizing the guy who they *think* they support (but infact do not but pretend to because it validates their own little tribalist biased opinion about "what pro-wrestling should be") is just giving them the biggest praise ever.

As far as the "tribute act" line, you people realize that the Bucks wanted to work with FTR for ever (and vice-versa) when they were in WWE and basically built a potential dream match for themselves (and  everybody else) ? It's like Omega and Ospreay talking shit about each other for a year straight about wrestling style and such, which is very much ingrained in the Japanese mentality. You really think the Bucks don't know what they owe to who came before ? Seriously ? They are a META tag-team at heart, it's basically exactly where they came from, their entire career is a love letter to those teams who came before them. Fuck, they were doing MX shit in TNA in 2010. 

Yup.

Hey, I'm a HUGE FTR fan and certainly wish they would be more on TV and PPV too. The Acclaimed getting over at that level probably wasn't predictable. Meanwhile, FTR got pretty much 3 MOTYC this year, which has been the best of their career by their own admission, they are working Wrestling Kingdom next year. Not that bad, all things considered.

Why did The Bucks drop the titles to Swerve In Our Glory when there was a third match with FTR right there and FTR was super hot?

[Flyin' Brian]

On 11/22/2022 at 10:39 AM, cad said:

Those first two items there aren't really new, are they? Wrestlers have fought tooth and nail to protect their spots for just about as long as wrestling has existed.

I agree with you on the last one, though. I have no idea why fans would want to rate wrestlers by their influences, but that's what's happening and naturally guys are going to push their inspirations as hard as they can. I remember Sasha Banks talking about how she was watching some Eddy Guerrero in preparation for some big match she had and thinking it was the lamest thing ever. She knew what she was doing I guess.

It never really felt that way with tag team wrestling, maybe I'm wrong. Like the Rock N Roll Express and Midnight Express seemed to work so well together and got along, never seemed to be an ego issue there. Same with Edge and Christian and the Hardys until the Lita stuff. I don't know, maybe those were the exception to the rule.

[Flyin' Brian]

Here's what Dax had to say to Dave Meltzer when Meltzer said The Young Bucks didn't have anything to do with FTR vs The Bucks 3 not happening.

“Dave, with all due respect, f**k off. Like, in the most respectful and loving way, I mean that. When you decide to get two sides of a story, then speak on it. Thanks dude.”

[El-P]

2 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

Why did The Bucks drop the titles to Swerve In Our Glory when there was a third match with FTR right there and FTR was super hot?

Because they were not supposed to get the title back to begin with. The Hardys were. Alas, Jeff Hardy being Jeff Hardy changed the plans. 

Anyway, I'm so done with all of this 'pick a side" bullshit. As a huge fan of both teams, I win every time, unless they all end up in WWE. I'm a happy pro-wrestling fan whenever I get the Bucks or FTR. People may be miserable if that suits them and keep on bitching forever. Their loss.

[El-P]

In other news, pro-wrestlers being, well, kinda dumb.

Awesome timing. 

Even just saying it on a podcast right now makes him look dumb, really. Like, read the fucking room already. 

[KawadaSmile]

Eh, it could be worse. Touch the Sky is a fucking banger and it was released way before Kanye was off the rails. The problem is that it would give him money - and although other scummy people are seeing their music being used in AEW (Saraya is in a relationship with a scummy artists, uses one of his song, and said song's lyrics are reflective of him being a total bellend, talking about "cancel culture" and other bullshit), Kanye would be a far bigger, far more notorious and infamous name.

[El-P]

21 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

(Saraya is in a relationship with a scummy artists, uses one of his song, and said song's lyrics are reflective of him being a total bellend, talking about "cancel culture" and other bullshit)

*search Wiki*

Oh. 

Wow.

Seems like she's dating yet another wonderful dude.

But yeah, antisemitic shit Kayne West's song is not a good idea. Especially just as he's gonna face MJF, ya know.

[DMJ]

If I were Ricky Starks, I'd try to get a remix going of his current song with Ghostface. 

Usually Ghostface and/or Raekwon + horns = bombastic braggadocios awesomeness and, I dunno, listening to his theme, it just screams should-be Wu banger to me.

* And I know some of Ghost's views aren't super PC and would likely offend people with more progressive, liberal views, but its pretty easy to separate art from artists with the Wu for me. 

[sek69]

14 minutes ago, El-P said:

But yeah, antisemitic shit Kayne West's song is not a good idea. Especially just as he's gonna face MJF, ya know

I was stuck on how dumb it is to want to associate oneself with Kayne in this current climate, and I didn't even think about who he's going to be going up against soon. ffs.

[Coffey]

6 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I was stuck on how dumb it is to want to associate oneself with Kayne in this current climate, and I didn't even think about who he's going to be going up against soon. ffs.

Same. I read that reply by good brother El-P & said "OH... oh yeah, good point" out loud. That would definitely NOT be a good look.

[El-P]

So, Rampage hit rock bottom ratings. Not surprising. At times it comes off less than a B-show and almost Dark Rampage. I have no idea what was the thought, or lack of thought behind this. At this point, I'm only watching it out of habit and really could drop it from my viewing habits without regretting much. Since it doesn't draw well at all, maybe making this the ROH based show would not be the worst idea, since TK seems hellbent on making that stuff a thing. 

2023 is gonna be tough for AEW, and that's the year they will negociate for a new deal. Rampage is hurting their overall rating presentation. At the very least for the entire Mania season starting with the Rumble, WWE is gonna roll over them in term of hype, with rumors of The Rock, Austin, Cena at Mania, not to mention Sasha Banks if Trip plays his cards right. By default, this is already the biggest Rumble ever and the biggest Mania ever. AEW needs to find its own way, and they can't count on being "the alternative for disgruntled WWE viewers", because this is not that dynamic anymore. Maybe it's time to try something different, catching up back with some of the spirit of what made AEW to begin with. Something even more different. 

[rovert]

5 hours ago, El-P said:

So, Rampage hit rock bottom ratings. Not surprising. At times it comes off less than a B-show and almost Dark Rampage. I have no idea what was the thought, or lack of thought behind this. At this point, I'm only watching it out of habit and really could drop it from my viewing habits without regretting much. Since it doesn't draw well at all, maybe making this the ROH based show would not be the worst idea, since TK seems hellbent on making that stuff a thing. 

2023 is gonna be tough for AEW, and that's the year they will negociate for a new deal. Rampage is hurting their overall rating presentation. At the very least for the entire Mania season starting with the Rumble, WWE is gonna roll over them in term of hype, with rumors of The Rock, Austin, Cena at Mania, not to mention Sasha Banks if Trip plays his cards right. By default, this is already the biggest Rumble ever and the biggest Mania ever. AEW needs to find its own way, and they can't count on being "the alternative for disgruntled WWE viewers", because this is not that dynamic anymore. Maybe it's time to try something different, catching up back with some of the spirit of what made AEW to begin with. Something even more different. 

A looming recession of someone description. A fan's dollar will have to be harder to earn. AEW's ticket advances have been rough this winter. 

But they are going to many more markets in the Spring so hopefully that freshens up areas of the city they've ran too much in 2021/2.

[Matt D]

I get that I'm not ticket sales or ratings, but I still am deeply enjoying just about everything AEW does. The booking has issues, but the booking has always had issues as best as I can tell. My favorite parts of the week wrestling wise continue to be right at the end of Dynamite when they announce the matches for Rampage and right at the end of Rampage when they announce the matches for Dynamite, as well as shortly after Dynamite when I can look up what the Elevation matches are going to be. I'm just really enjoying the wrestling, and skipping the stuff I know I'm not going to enjoy like the best of seven series. Given the kids and everything else, I can almost never watch live. I catch Dynamite on my commute in Thursday morning. I catch Rampage Saturday morning like a WCW Power Hour or Superstars/Challenge. I usually watch Dark and Elevation shortly after they happen or the following morning, but on my own terms, at my own speed, and with my own discretion.

I don't know what to say to you guys. I don't think ROH is a big issue, for instance. I think the biggest issue, by far, in the last 15 months or so was the injuries. Khan can adapt in a EWR sort of way to one or two injuries and probably even sees it as a challenge, but the whole roster went down in a staggered sort of way and that upset the applecart. If anything, I think having ROH and a few more titles in there just gave him a couple of extra crutches to book with and it all probably would have been even worse without that.

I'm definitely looking forward to Wednesday. I don't expect Acclaimed vs FTR to have a clean finish but I wouldn't have expected Backlund vs Race or Flair to have one either. I expect it to be a really fun match. Joe vs Darby is a fresh, pretty perfect match up. It'll be good to see Velvet back in action and Skye Blue is one of my favorite prospects in the company as she hits hard and takes hard shots and she'll probably play FIP. Hager/Garcia vs Claudio/Yuta is just good wrestling. I'm curious to see how Hager and Garcia work together since we haven't quite seen that exact pairing so it's fresh even in a feud that isn't. And I love AEW Battle Royals because of all the weird interactions you get. It's a great roster and it leads to some weird interactions with guys like Cassidy. Here, I'm looking forward to see Starks interact with everyone. 

I don't fault anyone who has misgivings about the booking, thinks that there are too many turns or too many guys on and off tv without being a chance to grow and build or that some plot lines are just dropped and some feuds go on for too long. There are issues, but it's a really easy promotion with a lot of wrestling to enjoy if you take it on your own terms. 2022 will make for a hell of an AEW comp tape ten years down the line. That's for sure.

[Jmare007]

23 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I get that I'm not ticket sales or ratings, but I still am deeply enjoying just about everything AEW does. The booking has issues, but the booking has always had issues as best as I can tell. My favorite parts of the week wrestling wise continue to be right at the end of Dynamite when they announce the matches for Rampage and right at the end of Rampage when they announce the matches for Dynamite, as well as shortly after Dynamite when I can look up what the Elevation matches are going to be. I'm just really enjoying the wrestling, and skipping the stuff I know I'm not going to enjoy like the best of seven series. Given the kids and everything else, I can almost never watch live. I catch Dynamite on my commute in Thursday morning. I catch Rampage Saturday morning like a WCW Power Hour or Superstars/Challenge. I usually watch Dark and Elevation shortly after they happen or the following morning, but on my own terms, at my own speed, and with my own discretion.

I don't know what to say to you guys. I don't think ROH is a big issue, for instance. I think the biggest issue, by far, in the last 15 months or so was the injuries. Khan can adapt in a EWR sort of way to one or two injuries and probably even sees it as a challenge, but the whole roster went down in a staggered sort of way and that upset the applecart. If anything, I think having ROH and a few more titles in there just gave him a couple of extra crutches to book with and it all probably would have been even worse without that.

I'm definitely looking forward to Wednesday. I don't expect Acclaimed vs FTR to have a clean finish but I wouldn't have expected Backlund vs Race or Flair to have one either. I expect it to be a really fun match. Joe vs Darby is a fresh, pretty perfect match up. It'll be good to see Velvet back in action and Skye Blue is one of my favorite prospects in the company as she hits hard and takes hard shots and she'll probably play FIP. Hager/Garcia vs Claudio/Yuta is just good wrestling. I'm curious to see how Hager and Garcia work together since we haven't quite seen that exact pairing so it's fresh even in a feud that isn't. And I love AEW Battle Royals because of all the weird interactions you get. It's a great roster and it leads to some weird interactions with guys like Cassidy. Here, I'm looking forward to see Starks interact with everyone. 

I don't fault anyone who has misgivings about the booking, thinks that there are too many turns or too many guys on and off tv without being a chance to grow and build or that some plot lines are just dropped and some feuds go on for too long. There are issues, but it's a really easy promotion with a lot of wrestling to enjoy if you take it on your own terms. 2022 will make for a hell of an AEW comp tape ten years down the line. That's for sure.

I think you can make a "it's still good if you watch it on your own terms" argument with most wrestling companies in the world. That Matt post reminded me of Johhny's when he watched RAW on Hulu and found every complaint we had about the booking too over the top.

TK hasn't had to deal with injuries for close to six months now, not sure how that's still an explanation of the booking. And the ROH stuff has clearly rubbed a lot of people the wrong way so it's no question an issue.

Like, I still love strong Big Japan but it's booking has been down right atrocious for at least 4 years straight, no matter how much a pick and choose matches and still love what I see.

[Matt D]

You live long enough and you become Johnny? What a world.

Though some of my point is that I'm not convinced the stuff that's bad now has ever been particularly good and it's always been a promotion that you should probably take on your own terms. 

And don't discount the injuries up and down the line. Cole, O'Reilly, Statlander are three people that absolutely factored into his long term plans. 

[El-P]

It happened. The day Matt probably enjoys AEW as a whole more than I do ! Never say never people !

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

There are issues, but it's a really easy promotion with a lot of wrestling to enjoy if you take it on your own terms. 2022 will make for a hell of an AEW comp tape ten years down the line. That's for sure.

I was thinking about this lately, that if I watched current AEW like I did my TNA watch (I've reached 2016, almost done), with the benefit of hindsight and detached from the notion of "hope" (which can be detrimental, actually), I would most probably enjoy it a lot more, because the good to great stuff wouldn't be hurt by the bad and frustrating stuff, which would be irrelevant by now. I would already know what I can ff without any second thought, I wouldn't have any "business" thought in the back of my mind either that would make me second guess some of the stuff I enjoy for what it is, but may not be productive in the long run.

[NintendoLogic]

They really seem to have booked themselves into a corner with FTR/Acclaimed. It looks like only the AEW tag titles will be on the line, which would point to the Acclaimed going over. Plus, they're the most over babyface act in the company right now. On the other hand, I can't imagine New Japan and AAA being OK with their tag champs doing jobs for other teams. They could always do a WWE-style cop-out finish, but I guarantee that would generate the wrong kind of heat.

[El-P]

Yeah, that's a puzzling piece of booking for sure. AAA probably don't give a flying fuck though. 

And really now, who are FTR facing at the ROH PPV for the ROH titles. Don't tell me "No one", ok ? 

FTR kinda got screwed by the Acclaimed getting over huge at the same time they collected belts. If the Acclaimed doesn't catch up like they did, they sure win the titles from Swerve/Lee (or the Hardies if Jeff doesn't fall off the wagon).

[NintendoLogic]

11 minutes ago, El-P said:

And really now, who are FTR facing at the ROH PPV for the ROH titles. Don't tell me "No one", ok ?

A depressingly likely scenario is the Ass Boys or maybe the Kingdom screwing FTR out of the AEW tag titles to set up an ROH tag title match at Final Battle.

[El-P]

49 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

A depressingly likely scenario is the Ass Boys or maybe the Kingdom screwing FTR out of the AEW tag titles to set up an ROH tag title match at Final Battle.

Well, Kingdom actually would be a good choice and they would have a terrific match to boot probably. I want Kingdom on my weekly TV. I was thinking Ass Boys actually, and really this is a not ROH PPV match at all. Kingdom are identified as ROH talents at least.

Worst case scenario.... gasp.... Gates of Agony. Which probably won't happen as FTR already defeated these dull ass clowns on the C-show.

[DMJ]

To me, the right move is to put the titles on FTR. I don't think the audience is going to turn them heel and, if they're both healthy, they're the best working team on the roster. 

They're also, IMO, a harder team to book without the titles than The Acclaimed. The Acclaimed are over enough with their catchphrases and their gimmicks to carry their segments quite handily (without the titles). You don't need them to put in a 20-minute match or try to work a clinic on every PPV. But with their intro rap and building up to some sort of Billy Gunn involvement, they can usually keep the crowd interest for an easy 10-12 minutes. They're such larger-than-life characters that they're perfectly fine foils for the lesser teams like the Ass Boys, Butcher & Blade, Bear Country, etc. and then are also over enough to make them potentially interesting opponents for the Bucks and FTRs of the company. 

I'm not sure FTR vs. Butcher & Blade works the same way without the titles. Same for FTR vs. the Ass Boys or FTR vs. some combo of JAS or BCC members. To me, FTR are that team whose gimmick really relies on them being able to say they're the best ("no gimmicks needed") and those sorts of characters are far easier to book, promote, and give credibility to when they have the titles.

Plus, with Billy Gunn still able to do some work in the ring, they can fairly quickly and easily be transitioned into the 6-man "division" in a way that is more organic than finding a new buddy for FTR.

[El-P]

I kinda agree with both dynamics, although getting the belts was needed for the Acclaimed to put them to the next level.

Do FTR need the belts more than the Acclaimed ? Yes. They are like Bret Hart. Their gimmick is that they are the best pro-wrestling tag-team at pro-wrestling. They aren't like the Bucks who can make any match must-see because they can go in a thousand different directions, from straight comedy to highspots orgy to classic southern tags, whether heel, babyface or just plain meta-stuff. To me their regular TV matches with some underneath tag-teams have been kinda lacking tbh (Gates of Agony, Butcher & Blade). They are awesome big tag-team titles match workers (their first Briscoe match is probably my MOTY from the top of my head), but when they are not working in a championship setting, they aren't coming off exactly the same.

The issue now is that yes, FTR would be better off with all the belts, but you don't want the Acclaimed to lose the belts already. That's too soon. The Acclaimed can be a NAO deal of lasting for only a little while, but who knows, they could end up being like the New Day also. I guess losing to FTR is not that big of a deal, but you don't want to cut their momentum off for no good reasons.

Plus, there's what Dax said in interview. If he really thinks about leaving in April, why push the hell out of FTR now, with the risk of losing them anyway in 6 months ? That's tricky, especially in the current context of having put Regal in the middle of the biggest angle in the company only to have him leave in a matter of weeks.