WON HOF 2022

[NintendoLogic]

Ballots for this year have been issued. The big change for this year is a massive influx of tag teams on the ballot for the first time due to the rule against multiple inductions being dropped. As a result, voters this year will be able to vote for up to 18 candidates, of which a maximum of 8 can come from the historical category and 5 from the other categories. Discuss.

 

The following candidates will be dropped from next year's ballot unless they are elected in or garner 50% of the vote:
Sgt. Slaughter
Enrique Torres
Rocky Johnson

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES
Adrian Adonis & Jesse Ventura
Ole Anderson
Bob Armstrong
Jack & Jerry Brisco
June Byers
Wild Bull Curry
British Bulldogs (Dynamite Kid & Davey Boy Smith)
Cowboy Bob Ellis
Pampero Firpo
Black Gordman & Great Goliath
Archie "Mongolian Stomper" Gouldie
Hart Foundation (Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart)
Rocky Johnson
Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty
Sputnik Monroe
Blackjack Mulligan
Harley Race & Larry Hennig
Dusty Rhodes & Dick Murdoch
Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez
Johnny Rougeau
Kinji Shibuya & Masa Saito
Tiger Jeet Singh
Ricky Steamboat & Jay Youngblood
Enrique Torres
Mad Dog & Butcher Vachon
Von Brauners & Saul Weingeroff
Mr.Wrestling I & II

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES
Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson w/J.J. Dillon
Junkyard Dog
Jerry Lawler & Bill Dundee
Edge
Bill Goldberg
Matt & Jeff Hardy
Becky Lynch
Kevin Nash & Scott Hall
Paul Orndorff
Randy Orton
New Age Outlaws (Billy Gunn & Road Dogg)
C.M. Punk
Roman Reigns
Sgt. Slaughter
Trish Stratus
Rick & Scott Steiner
Kevin & Kerry & David Von Erich

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES
Riki Choshu & Animal Hamaguchi
Cima
Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan
Yoshiaki Fujiwara
Hayabusa
Kota Ibushi
Antonio Inoki & Seiji Sakaguchi
Tomohiro Ishii
Naomichi Marufuji
Tetsuya Naito
Meiko Satomura
Shingo Takagi
Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada
Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES
Angel Blanco & Dr.Wagner
Sangre Chicana
Los Hermanos Dinamita (Cien Caras & Mascara Ano 2000 & Universo 2000)
Dorrell Dixon
Pirata Morgan
Mistico/Caristico
El Hijo del Santo & Octagon
La Parka AAA
Huracan Ramirez
Rito Romero
Los Villanos

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE/AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND/PACIFIC ISLANDS/AFRICA
Sypros Arion
L'Ange Blanc (Francisco Pino)
Big Daddy
Dominic DeNucci
Billy Joyce
George Kidd
Killer Karl Kox
Kendo Nagasaki
Jackie Pallo
Rollerball Mark Rocco
The Royal Brothers (Bert Royal & Vic Faulkner)
Johnny Saint
Ricki Starr
Adrian Street
Jose Tarres
Otto Wanz

NON-WRESTLERS
Lord James Blears
Dave Brown
Bobby Bruns
Bob Caudle
Bobby Davis
Joe Higuchi
Jim Johnston
Larry Matysik
James Melby
Rossy Ogawa
Reggie Parks
Morris Sigel
Tony Schiavone
George Scott
Sanshiro Takagi
Mike Tenay
Ted Turner
Roy Welch
Stanley Weston
Grand Wizard

[Timbo Slice]

Some of these tag teams are so obvious (and varied, as you have the big drawing tag teams along with your work-based teams) that I think 18 with some pretty obvious choices will be even more difficult than usual with the 10. A quick scan means pushing a few teams to next year. 

[Timbo Slice]

That being said, so many folks are going to vote for like, Ishii over Toyota and Yamada, for example, which is gonna be baffling.

[sek69]

Recency bias is a hell of a drug. People are going to be more inclined to vote for someone who's either currently being awesome or has been not to long ago as opposed to someone who was a bonafide GOAT in an era where no one had access to watch Joshi like we do now.

[Jmare007]

Man, if Taue can't even make it in as part of Holy Demon Army...

[Robert S]

Okay, I am not an expert on 80ies Japan, but if you want to nominate an Ishingundan tag team, isn't Choshu & Yatsu the more obvious choice? Not that either team looks very HOF-worthy to me. If Meltzer wants to nominate Ishingundan, he should write Ishingundan on the ballot. Considering that the three men versions of the Freebirds and MX are in the HOF and Kerry, Kevin & Davin von Erich are on the ballot (as well as some Mexican trios teams that are already in like the Brazos or the Misioneros del Muere), I don't see much speaking against that.

[KinchStalker]

2 hours ago, Robert S said:

Okay, I am not an expert on 80ies Japan, but if you want to nominate an Ishingundan tag team, isn't Choshu & Yatsu the more obvious choice? 

I guess because Choshu-Hamaguchi straddled Ishingun's two eras, whereas Choshu-Yatsu was just the All Japan/Japan Pro era. I think the Yamaha Brothers would be a better nomination. We only have footage from their sunset run but that energetic tag style that Riki and Animal did together had its roots with them. Plus you have Yamamoto's legacy as a coach.

[Robert S]

6 hours ago, Cien Caras said:

How many matches did El Hijo del Santo & Octagon have as a tag team other than the 2 against Gringos Locos?

On a quick cagematch search I found 15 tag team matches of Santo & Octagon. Cagematch is very incomplete w.r.t. lucha (the listed matches were mostly from TV) but still.

[sek69]

Yeah the Santo/Octagon team is on there pretty much because When Worlds Collide is when most of the Internet lost their Lucha cherry. 

[NintendoLogic]

19 hours ago, Timbo Slice said:

That being said, so many folks are going to vote for like, Ishii over Toyota and Yamada, for example, which is gonna be baffling.

People voting for Ishii over Naito or Ibushi is even more baffling to me. That's more of an apples-to-apples comparison and they blow him out of the water in every objective category.

[Rah]

On 10/21/2022 at 1:10 AM, Cien Caras said:

How many matches did El Hijo del Santo & Octagon have as a tag team other than the 2 against Gringos Locos?

They had a match a couple months ago. Clear recency bias at play. 

[ethantyler]

Ishii has easily become the most overrated candidate on the ballot in my view. If a voter is doing the job properly and focusing on the criteria - drawing power, in-ring ability, and positive historical significance - then objectively Ishii can't make top 5 in that section. Look at these versus battles: 

Ishii vs Kawada & Taue ends with an Ishii L because he gets destroyed on drawing power & historic sig.

Ishii vs Ibushi ends with an Ishii L because he gets destroyed on drawing power (see Ibushi's DDT run in particular) and historic sig.

Ishii vs Takagi ends with an Ishii L because drawing power (Dragon Gate success) and historic sig (longevity on-top combined with world title run) clearly gives Takagi the edge. 

Ishii vs Naito ends with an Ishii L because he gets destroyed on drawing power & historic sig. He isn't so far superior to Naito in-ring to make up the difference here. 

Ishii vs Toyota & Yamada. Ishii takes in-ring because he has been at that top level for far longer than these two as a team. Drawing power - neither are great, but Toyota & Yamada headlined bigger shows and were in that era seen as bigger stars in comparison. Historical significance - easy W for Toyota & Yamada. Arguably the greatest women's in-ring tag team of all time - up there with the best the men had to offer. Ishii's a great, top-10, wrestler in his era but there is nothing "all-time" that I can add to his resume. Objectively, I don't see Ishii winning here. He relies on the longevity of his in-work to eclipse the main-event status and historic sig of Toyota & Yamada. Not for me. 

Ishii vs Fujiwara is the eye-opening contest. Drawing power: neither are really HOF-level draws but Fujiwara has the longevity-on-top combined with the habit of headlining major shows for years (vs Takada, Maeda, Inoki, etc) to clearly win. He flopped as a solo draw with PWFG but is proven as an major rival - that's more than Ishii who has never been a main event guy in any real capacity. In-ring: Ishii takes it because he's recognized in his era as one of the best around while Fujiwara really wasn't. I personally think they're equally great, but if you look at the Observer award scores - Fujiwara is shockingly low while Ishii is expectedly high. Historical significance: Fujiwara wins. He's seen as at the top of that secondary level (below Tiger Mask, Maeda, Takada, etc) and widely respected for the links to Gotch, the legit skills, the role he played in popularizing the UWF-style and everything that comes from it, etc, etc. He also trained a bunch of great wrestlers (Ikeda, Anjoy, etc) along with a HOFer (Minoru Suzuki). Ishii, in comparison, is recognized as one of the best in-ring workers of this era. That's his legacy as of today, and I don't think that's enough to beat Fujiwara. Depending on how influential he turns out to be, he might in future. So. We end up with a predictable 2-1 score for Fujiwara and an open question about whether Ishii is dominant enough in the in-ring category to sneak it overall. Objectively, I don't see it but the voters strongly disagree. Last year's numbers: Ishii 38% vs Fujiwara 23%. That's too big a gap for me to justify objectively. 

These battles have been oversimplified compared to how I really do this, but the result is the same. If a voter is going about this the right way, then sneaking Ishii into Japan's top 5 is going to be difficult. Very difficult. Bordering on impossible. 

[EnviousStupid]

I'm basically nodding at everything @ethantylerhas written out here. The strongest argument Ishii has come from the belief of him being a BITW-level worker for the last decade, and I don't think that alone gives him the edge over half of those Japan candidates.

[Robert S]

I felt a bit bored and went over the list of the 1996 inductees to see if there are names that stand out as controversial of simply bad and was shocked to see that Jim Cornette got inducted with the first bunch. By that point, Cornette had done two or at best three bigger things in wrestling:

• He was the manager of the Midnight Express. The Midnight Express itself was not introducted until 2009 and Cornette was not bigger than the rest of the MX.
• He was the promoter of Smoky Mountain Wrestling. There is not much about promoting SMW that reads "Hall of Fame". It was a terroritory that lasted for four years, did just good enough to stay alive for this time, did not influence the wrestling industry at all and barely produced any future stars. I went over the list of SMW alumni on Wikipedia and the biggest names that I would say can thank SMW for their careers are Bob Holly, Kane, Tammy Sytch, Chris Candido and New Jack. Not a very spectacular list.
• He managed some people in WWF, most notably Yokozuna, Owen Hart, British Bulldog and Vader. He was competent in his role, but I doubt he was necessary for any of those acts to work. Also, that was during the worst years business-wise in WWF history.

He added to his résumé later on (working WWF backstage from 96 to 99 and later on producing some of the biggest stars of the last 20 years in OVW), but by 96, his vita does not really shout "HOF without even being put on the ballot" (at least if the rest of the MX does not get in initially). I should also mention that he was only 34 or 35 (depending on when the HOF issue cam out) at that point (I think of the first batch, only Misawa was younger than Cornette).

[Ricky Jackson]

Probably winning his manager of the year award 12 of 13 years was enough to be in his HoF?

[Phil Schneider]

I think the story of the initial WON HOF class was just Meltzer and John D. Williams BSing on a flight to Japan. I didn't sense they put a ton of thought into it, outside of one guy saying how about Cornette, and the other guy saying "sounds good"

[NintendoLogic]

Here's how he's described in the Observer with the inaugural HOF class:

"JIM CORNETTE - With the possible exception of Bobby Heenan, the greatest manager in the history of wrestling and among the top five interviews ever.

Has also been influential behind the scenes running his own promotion."

[Robert S]

1 hour ago, Phil Schneider said:

I think the story of the initial WON HOF class was just Meltzer and John D. Williams BSing on a flight to Japan. I didn't sense they put a ton of thought into it, outside of one guy saying how about Cornette, and the other guy saying "sounds good"

Meltzer has talked about this a couple times, usually when talking about Moolah. I think they went something like "What about Moolah? You have to put in Moolah, right?" - "Actually, why should she be in?"

Regarding Cornette: I am not saying that he should not be in *now*, but putting him in via fiat and put Condrey, Eaton and Lane to a vote later on looks wrong with the benefit of hindsight. All were great performers as a unit and drew quite some money especially in Mid South. What somewhat devalues Cornette to me compared to other great managers is that he really was only a one-team-at-a-time guy. WWF-era Heenan or some WWWF managers probably made their companies (or more concretely the Vinces) more money than Cornette did.

[PeteF3]

There's an artistic element to the WON HOF that goes beyond just hard numbers and Cornette comfortably passes that. 

[Timbo Slice]

That artistic element also made some absolutely bonkers choices over the years so that’s not exactly a point in its favor. 

[Reel]

I think the ship has sailed on post-induction conduct being a strike against people in the HOF. 

[Dav'oh]

9 hours ago, Robert S said:

Cornette was not bigger than the rest of the MX.

I'd argue that without Cornette, the Express doesn't even leave the station. He was bigger than Eaton, Condrey, Rose, Lane, Norvell Austin, Holly, Gunn - either as individuals or as combinations. Cornette occupies a special realm in wrestling which the others never reached.

[Phil Lions]

I've thought about this before, but gave it even more thought the other day, and it struck me that Big Daddy and L'Ange Blanc make for a good comparison. A very good one, actually. Both were around for a while and doing okay until they stumbled upon a gimmick to elevate them into superstardom, both became the faces of pro wrestling in their respective countries, both were big television stars, both were/are the most recognizable wrestling names to the older generations in their countries, both were pushed hard, both were very protected in terms of losses, their runs as big headline acts were about the same length, and both were still around as headliners when the business in their countries took a nosedive. There are definite similarities between the two. However, when you start making further comparisons you realize that Blanc has Daddy beat on multiple fronts: Blanc was a headliner in several different countries and not just in one, he drew a number of 10,000+ crowds (and there's very likely even more such crowds that we don't know about), he was a better in-ring worker, and his influence was felt/gimmick was copied in several countries.

Anyway, just some thoughts from me as I continue pondering my ballot. With all the tag team options it's a harder ballot than last year's so I'm taking my time with it.

[JNLister]

I'm really baffled by the tag teams. Firstly, am I comparing their credentials against other tag teams or against all other candidates? If it's the latter, I'm not sure how anyone could argue for, eg, the Rockers when they pretty much headlined one AWA 'supershow' and a brief run of C shows where cripped Andre vs Warrior was the real main event.  

Secondly, am I taking into account just their tag run or their individual careers as well? If it's the former, as appears to be the case, I don't see how a UK team gets in because hardly anyone in the TV era was full-time in a tag team. You had regular pairings, but they'd always be doing singles matches as well, and not in a "one half of each team faces off sense."

Also, if your singles matches don't affect your tag run, then by the same logic, should tag matches be taken into account for a singles candidate? Because if you take out the matches with Kernodle against Steamboat and Youngblood, Slaughter's case is much weaker.

And how strictly do you enforce the logic. Clearly nobody's going to pay much attention to Jannetty's singles careers in assessing the Rockers. But are people really going to ignore every Taue singles match in assessing the drawing/work/influence of Kawada & Taue. And do you take into account six man matches where the unit of "Kawada & Taue" was part of the team?

[ethantyler]

3 hours ago, JNLister said:

I'm really baffled by the tag teams...

I compare the tag-teams against all candidates. You'll find some post-1980 choices to be far weaker when you do that, but so be it. Not so with the more historical ones. For example, Rocca & Perez are the 2nd biggest draws of 1958 & 59 while still top-10 in 57. That's better than any tag-team ever so it should be a done deal. The Vachons were top-10 draws in both 1969 & 70 when they were hot in the AWA - plenty of 10,000+ they headlined topped off with co-headlining the big 1970 Chicago show that drew 21,000/gate of $148,000 (largest documented in the US at the time) - and Canada where the feud with the Leducs did set records in several towns. Blanco & Wagner were perennial headliners from 66-74 and even the break-up stuff drew huge for years (20,000 for Blanc vs Wagner hair vs mask for example in 79 - 5 years after the breakup). Post-80, you're looking at a super hot Von Erichs for a brief period and Kawada & Taue as the key headliners. Steamboat & Youngblood, Toyota & Yamada, etc are more patchy/limited. Hart Foundation, Rockers, Bulldogs, etc are extremely limited.  

I'm ignoring individual careers for tag-teams, which I think Dave agrees with. So, no, you shouldn't vote for the Hart Foundation because Bret had a HOF singles run. They don't have to be full-time as a tag-team (many weren't including the Briscos), but their careers as a tag-team need to be HOF-worthy by itself. At least that's my interpretation of it. Again, taking Rocca & Perez as the no-brainers here, Rocca has an easy HOF career as a single pre/during/post tag-team run but ignoring that does the tag-team run hold up at HOF-level too? Answer is yes, it does. 

For single runs I *think* you take into account everything, which can cause logical complications depending on how thorough you want to be. I'm taking into account 6+ man matches where the team (Kawada & Taue) are in it, yes. Kawada & Taue won't have any issues getting inducted John. As a team they're clearly way past the bar In-ring and for historical significance. The drawing power is more than good enough too. I see them getting in easily. 

For tag-teams in general, Rocca & Perez with Kawada & Taue are my no-brainers. Then it's a shortlist of Briscos, Von Erichs, Vachons, Steiners, Toyota & Yamada, Blanco & Wagner and Villanos. All have strong, but different, cases. We'll see how I play this in the end.