"He's ambitiously stupid" - Why Scott Keith's new book is scary bad

[Loss]

I looked at Classics and couldn't get anything to come up in a search on this. But I know for a fact I've seen him say this. I will continue searching for it. If it's not true, then it's not true. So be it. But it stood out to me at the time I read it, because the idea that the Crush Girls had that type of influence on the pop culture of the time seemed pretty impressive.

[El-P]

Chiggy = Madonna sounds ridiculous as hell, but as far as being a draw, Chiggy is probably the biggest star in female wrestling ever. Madusa was never positionned to draw in the US, and Trish was most probably a biggest star simply because of the context and era. (Sable didn't draw as a worker of any kind, her fake boobs were the draw during those few months at the peak of Attitude era).

[kjh]

I looked at Classics and couldn't get anything to come up in a search on this. But I know for a fact I've seen him say this. I will continue searching for it. If it's not true, then it's not true. So be it. But it stood out to me at the time I read it, because the idea that the Crush Girls had that type of influence on the pop culture of the time seemed pretty impressive.

Found the quote you're talking about for you!

 

Chigusa Nagayo was the biggest female wrestling star of all-time, bar none, nobody else close.

 

Not saying the best wrestler, but the biggest star. As far as seeing her live, nobody, not Rock, not Austin, not Hogan I saw ever get the reaction she did.

 

During her glory period, the Wall Street Journal did a front page story on her as a Japanese marketing phenomenon. She had a record in the top ten. She was, by far, the most popular female athlete in her country. On weekend afternoons, during her peak, the TV show AVERAGED a 14 rating for several consecutive years. As a cultural figure she was probably just below the level of a Super Bowl winning QB, but at the level of a Pro Bowl QB. Virtually everyone in the culture knew The Crush Gals.

 

When I went to Japan in 1984, every store had her merchandise and you couldn't walk down the street and look in a store window without seeing her photo. It was comparable to Madonna at her peak, although Madonna overall was tons bigger because of longevity.

 

The All Japan wrestlers (except Stan Hansen, who hated all the fuss benig made about the women) all were telling me that the top women in that company, mentioning the Crush Girls and jaguar in particular, were better workers than any of the men, and this included male wrestlers who were considered at the top as the tops in the world.

 

As far as drawing power went, it was a company performing before 200-500 per night that went to filling 3,000 seat buildings in a few years and they did merchandising numbers per head that hit $30 per head. They didn't book big buildings but they did lots of $100,000 houses and did huge merchandise numbers, and I believe her retirement show did more than $500,000, which was at the time one of the biggest gate in history. In Hogan's WWF peak in the 80s, $4 per head was a great day. In Austin's peak, $10 per head wasa great day. The Crush Gals were not the only reason, but they were the stars of the show at the time.

[ohtani's jacket]

Japan had its own Madonna at the time, Akina Nakamori. I think it's a case of Dave not knowing that much about Japan culturally.

[Loss]

So would Chigusa Nagayo be more like Tiffany or Debbie Gibson, if we're looking for an 80s star to make a comparison? At their peak, both were bigger stars than Hogan or Austin, so it's still impressive.

[jdw]

So would Chigusa Nagayo be more like Tiffany or Debbie Gibson, if we're looking for an 80s star to make a comparison? At their peak, both were bigger stars than Hogan or Austin, so it's still impressive.

Tiffany would be too small: one massive hit that launched her, the follow up also went #1, another Top 10 off that album and then a Top 10 off her second album. The first album went #1 and sold a ton, while the second album was effectively a bomb.

 

Gibson was effectively a two album star. The first did well going To 10, sold a lot, spawned four Top 10 singles of which was #1. There was strong enough depth of hits off the first that the second album went #1 and the lead single did as well. But it was quickly down hill after the: the follow on singles where hits that just missed the Top 10, and then she was dead when the third album came out the following year.

 

I would have to see the chart positions of Chiggy / Crush Girls in the 80s.

 

Madonna on the charts? From 1984-89:

 

Singles: 16-4-10-1-2-1-5-5-1-1-3-1-4-1-2-1-2-2-20

Albums: 8-1-1-1

Soundtrack Album: 7

 

That's just the 80s, with the Like a Prayer album released shortly before Chiggy retired so it lines up pretty well.

 

I tend to think folks forget how big Madonna was, and how consistently she was churning out hits. From 1984 through 1990 she was tossing out multiple big hits left and right every year with the exception of 1988 which she took off. They weren't minor hits: seven #1, four #2 and five other top 5 hits.

[NintendoLogic]

I'm not sure how the existence of another Madonna figure disproves Chigusa being a Madonna-like figure in her own right. Is a country only allowed to have one Madonna at a time?

 

In any event, in his Matsunga obit, Dave likened the Crush Gals to Hannah Montana.

[Matt D]

Madonna on the charts? From 1984-89:

Only here on Prowrestlingonly, folks.

[jdw]

I'm not sure how the existence of another Madonna figure disproves Chigusa being a Madonna-like figure in her own right. Is a country only allowed to have one Madonna at a time?

How many Madonna's did we have in the 80s? I'm drawing a blank.

 

Janet didn't hit until 1986, released just two hit albums, and 5 of the 7 singles off the second album didn't get release until 1990. Not really Madonna relative to the 80s.

 

Well crap... let's make this easier and look for the women who had #1 albums in the 80s:

 

Donna Summer - On the Radio: Greatest Hits Volumes 1 & 2 (1980)

Barbra Streisand - Guilty (1980)

Kim Carnes - Mistaken Identity (1981)

Pat Benatar - Precious Time (1981)

Stevie Nicks - Bella Donna (1981)

The Go-Go's - Beauty and the Beat (1982)

 

Something kind of interesting happens. The Go-Gos were #1 from 3/6/82 to 4/10/82. There wouldn't be another woman to top the charts for nearly three years until 2/9/85...

 

Madonna - Like a Virgin (1985)

 

Bingo. Then it was something of a flood:

 

Heart - Heart (1985)

Barbra Streisand - The Broadway Album (1986)

Sade - Promise (1986)

Whitney Houston - Whitney Houston (1986)

Janet Jackson - Control (1986)

Patti LaBelle - Winner in You (1986)

Madonna - True Blue (1986)

Whitney Houston - Whitney (1987)

Tiffany - Tiffany (1988)

Tracy Chapman - Tracy Chapman (1988)

Anita Baker - Giving You the Best That I Got (1988)

Debbie Gibson - Electric Youth (1989)

Madonna - Like a Prayer (1989)

Paula Abdul - Forever Your Girl (1989)

Janet Jackson - Rhythm Nation 1814 (1989)

 

So who are the potential Madonna candidates?

 

Whitney is a different beast: a songstress that appealed to folks in their 40s as much as girl teeny boppers. She was really big, though.

 

Janet? Perhaps, eventually... but again, her second album had 5/7ths of its singles chart heavy lifting done in 1990.

 

There really was only one Madonna in this country in the 80s. It's a bit like there was only one Michael Jackson. Prince was a different beast.

[jdw]

Madonna on the charts? From 1984-89:

Only here on Prowrestlingonly, folks.

 

Hell, didn't Loss do a great piece on Madonna once?

[jdw]

Yep:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=12441

 

One of the greatest wrestling message board posts of all-time.

 

John, not even going to get into our Looney Tunes discussion...

[PeteF3]

Crush Gals = Lauper & Richter if they were a full-blown tag team?

[Loss]

I'm not sure how the existence of another Madonna figure disproves Chigusa being a Madonna-like figure in her own right. Is a country only allowed to have one Madonna at a time?

 

In any event, in his Matsunga obit, Dave likened the Crush Gals to Hannah Montana.

You were the one who challenged Chigusa being a Madonna figure. Why does it seem like you're just trying to consistently disagree with everyone, no matter their viewpoint?

 

And by the way, I love this. The best pro wrestling thread possible for a gay wrestling fan!

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm not sure how the existence of another Madonna figure disproves Chigusa being a Madonna-like figure in her own right. Is a country only allowed to have one Madonna at a time?

 

In any event, in his Matsunga obit, Dave likened the Crush Gals to Hannah Montana.

If there was a female entertainer who was bigger than Chigusa then I don't see how the Madonna analogy works. Think about it the other way round, if someone said Hogan was the most popular athlete in America during the 1980s or that he was as big as Michael Jackson would you agree with that? First he says Chigusa was on the same level as a Pro Bowl quarterback, then he says Madonna, now he's saying Miley Cyrus. The strange thing is he's ignoring that the Crush Girls were an idol pair, even if Chigusa was the more popular of the two. The 80s was the so-called golden age of Japanese idols. They used to produce 40 to 50 a year, most of them disappearing in short order. Chigusa had amazing success, but she wasn't the biggest idol in the business.

[NintendoLogic]

You were the one who challenged Chigusa being a Madonna figure. Why does it seem like you're just trying to consistently disagree with everyone, no matter their viewpoint?

Because you're attributing positions to me I didn't actually take. I didn't take a stance on the Chigusa-Madonna analogy one way or the other. All I said was that even if it were the case, I don't know how that compares to being one of the top 20 or so most iconic figures in a country's history.

 

If there was a female entertainer who was bigger than Chigusa then I don't see how the Madonna analogy works. Think about it the other way round, if someone said Hogan was the most popular athlete in America during the 1980s or that he was as big as Michael Jackson would you agree with that? First he says Chigusa was on the same level as a Pro Bowl quarterback, then he says Madonna, now he's saying Miley Cyrus. The strange thing is he's ignoring that the Crush Girls were an idol pair, even if Chigusa was the more popular of the two. The 80s was the so-called golden age of Japanese idols. They used to produce 40 to 50 a year, most of them disappearing in short order. Chigusa had amazing success, but she wasn't the biggest idol in the business.

I guess it depends on how you're defining a Madonna figure. If it's the most popular female entertainer, Chigusa's not it. If it's a larger-than-life figure who was successful across a wide variety of media and was a big lifestyle and fashion influence on teenage girls, she has a strong case. Where I think it falls apart is that 80s AJW was largely stigmatized as something only girls were into, while Madonna's appeal was more universal. In that case, the Hannah Montana analogy is probably more appropriate.

[jdw]

Crush Gals = Lauper & Richter if they were a full-blown tag team?

I forgot about Cyndi Lauper.

 

Two albums that got to #4, and a 2-1-3-5-27-10-1-3-12 run of singles at her peak across those albums. It does show (i) just how insanely over Madonna was, and (ii) how dominant men were in that era that Lauper's massively successful albums only topped out at #4.

 

John

[jdw]

And by the way, I love this. The best pro wrestling thread possible for a gay wrestling fan!

[ohtani's jacket]

Because you're attributing positions to me I didn't actually take. I didn't take a stance on the Chigusa-Madonna analogy one way or the other. All I said was that even if it were the case, I don't know how that compares to being one of the top 20 or so most iconic figures in a country's history.

I can't really speak for Mexico, but Rikidozan is not one of the top 20 or so most iconic figures in Japanese history. Perhaps of his era, but certainly not in history.

 

I guess it depends on how you're defining a Madonna figure. If it's the most popular female entertainer, Chigusa's not it. If it's a larger-than-life figure who was successful across a wide variety of media and was a big lifestyle and fashion influence on teenage girls, she has a strong case. Where I think it falls apart is that 80s AJW was largely stigmatized as something only girls were into, while Madonna's appeal was more universal. In that case, the Hannah Montana analogy is probably more appropriate.

How do we know that Chigusa had a big lifestyle and fashion influence on teenage girls? That's even flakier than Dave walking into some shop in Tokyo, only recognising Chigusa among the dozens of other stars and thinking she was the Madonna of Japan. It's easy to exaggerate things when there's a language barrier and a lack of information. Chigusa Nagayo's English wikipedia page, for example, says the Crush Girls had several top 10 hits, but I checked the Japanese charts and no single by either the Crush Girls or Nagayo was in the top 50 selling singles from 1986-89.

[NintendoLogic]

I can't really speak for Mexico, but Rikidozan is not one of the top 20 or so most iconic figures in Japanese history. Perhaps of his era, but certainly not in history.

He came in at 18 in a 2007 poll of the most influential people in history.

 

http://www.japanprobe.com/2007/04/01/histo...-edition-video/

 

How do we know that Chigusa had a big lifestyle and fashion influence on teenage girls?

Because so many of them were inspired by her to become professional wrestlers themselves. You can over the degree, but she was definitely a pop culture icon.

[FLIK]

I can't really speak for Mexico, but Rikidozan is not one of the top 20 or so most iconic figures in Japanese history. Perhaps of his era, but certainly not in history.

He came in at 18 in a 2007 poll of the most influential people in history.

 

http://www.japanprobe.com/2007/04/01/histo...-edition-video/

 

Hmmm

looking at the other list linked thear from 2006 polls

 

Giant Baba #93 on the most popular historical fig poll

 

Jackie Sato #87 on the list of most popular women (list limited to women who'd passed away)

[ohtani's jacket]

I can't really speak for Mexico, but Rikidozan is not one of the top 20 or so most iconic figures in Japanese history. Perhaps of his era, but certainly not in history.

He came in at 18 in a 2007 poll of the most influential people in history.

 

http://www.japanprobe.com/2007/04/01/histo...-edition-video/

I'm sorry but that's just silly. 100 most influential heroes?

 

Because so many of them were inspired by her to become professional wrestlers themselves. You can over the degree, but she was definitely a pop culture icon.

So many is a few dozen at the most. Probably hundreds more if you count try outs, but unless there were a bunch of short haired teenage girls wandering around wearing suits with giant shoulder pads I don't think she influenced fashion to any great degree. There were short haired sporty types before Chigusa.

[tigerpride]

I can't really speak for Mexico, but Rikidozan is not one of the top 20 or so most iconic figures in Japanese history. Perhaps of his era, but certainly not in history.

He came in at 18 in a 2007 poll of the most influential people in history.

 

http://www.japanprobe.com/2007/04/01/histo...-edition-video/

 

Hmmm

looking at the other list linked thear from 2006 polls

 

Giant Baba #93 on the most popular historical fig poll

 

Jackie Sato #87 on the list of most popular women (list limited to women who'd passed away)

 

FLIK, it's there. Not thear.

[Cox]

Seriously. There are three different ways to misuse that word (they're, their, there) and "thear" is not one of them.

[pantherwagner]

I can't remember the details as this was about a decade ago but there was a major poll done by a Time-like magazine in Mexico where El Santo was, I believe, number 3 in the most loved figures ever in Mexico, ranked over Benito Juarez and Pancho Villa. If I recall that the only two people over him were Tin Tan and Cantinflas (two comedy actors). But as with everything, icons aren't enduring anymore as there are tons more entertainment options compared to even 20 years ago, so I'm pretty sure that in 30 years only old people will know who El Santo was.

[NintendoLogic]

So many is a few dozen at the most. Probably hundreds more if you count try outs

More like a few thousand every year.

 

So what do you think a better analogy would be?