Death From Above Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 I'd take the Flair/Race match that preceded the Kerry Von Erich/Jumbo Tsuruta NWA title match in All Japan over the Starrcade 83 match without even having to give it a thought. I have a feeling I've seen a couple other Flair/Race matches as well though the details haven't stuck as much, but I feel pretty confident calling the 83 Starrcade match the least of the Flair/Race matches I've watched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 At least one of the Flair v Race in Japan matches was worked like Jerry Lynn v Chris Daniels two guys exchanging moves for no reason. The Starcade match was better than that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Pretty sure there's only one Flair/Race match in Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Another thing about Solie is that most people have only seen his Georgia work but he may have been even better in Florida especially when Dusty was on top. He was great in Georgia and Florida but man was he bad in Alabama. I don't blame him but he sounded like he was drunk 24/7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Yeah, Gordon Solie's greatness isn't a myth as far as I can tell. My dad grew up in Florida during the 60's and early 70's as a big wrestling fan. And he's always remembered Solie with the same reverence that a Phillies fan would hold Harry Kalas, or a Cubs fan would hold Harry Caray. He will always maintain that Solie is the greatest announcer of all time. And it's not just him. When Solie died, one of my dad's high school buddies mailed us the obituary from the local Tampa newspaper and wrote a short note about what a sad day it was. Jim Ross has always maintained that Solie was the best announcer of all-time and he's just fighting for second. There's got to be a reason he's still so revered decades after his peak. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of vintage Florida footage available for us to see, but you can get a feel for it from the Film Room specials they've put out on 24/7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 There is definitely a "what have you done for me lately" attitude amongst a lot of fans regarding their views of someone's career greatness, where whatever is most recent ends up defining someone's entire career, even if it's logically silly. I mean, Giant Baba is one of the best wrestlers I've ever seen, and general opinion of his work has improved a lot over the years. Still, we are not far removed from a time when no one would even consider that possibility, because he wasn't that good as a crippled old man in the 90's, therefore he couldn't possibly have been any good in his physical prime. I have seen precious little prime Solie, but I get the sense he suffers from the same problem. Most recent widely available Solie was half in the bag much of the time, and didn't give you much reason to be impressed. But to judge his entire career based on his post-prime should be an obvious mistake. Hey, I am listening to The 80's Channel on Shoutcast, and they just started playing "What Have You Done For Me Lately"! Synchronicity! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 You've got one life to live, who's right, who's wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 I mean, Giant Baba is one of the best wrestlers I've ever seen, and general opinion of his work has improved a lot over the years. Still, we are not far removed from a time when no one would even consider that possibility, because he wasn't that good as a crippled old man in the 90's, therefore he couldn't possibly have been any good in his physical prime.There's a lot of people out there who will giggle at the thought of Baba being a great wrestler, including a lot of workers. His strikes looked so slow, ginger, and phony much of the time that it's hard to suspend disbelief and pretend that those shots are actually supposed to hurt. He looked like an out-of-shape old man even as far back as his NWA title reigns, and even by that point his movements were often sluggish and awkward. No matter how tall he was, it's not easy to buy him as a physical threat to guys like Brody or Hansen. I don't actually agree with that viewpoint. I love Baba, it's rare that you ever see psychology that airtight. But I can easily understand how other people might not be able to look past just how physically weak and decrepit he looked for much of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 I never got the Baba hatred to begin with when it was applied to Old Man Baba. He's not the only slow dude in wrestling. He's not the only dude in wrestling who's strikes looked... odd. Or silly, in his late career work. A vast majority of his late career work was undercard filler/comedy 6-mans that were the pro wrestling equivilant of "guys in blowup sumo suits race around a hockey rink at intermission" and were a nice place to keep some of the loyal old guys employed in harmless fun, as opposed to say... Kevin Nash booking himself into the WCW title. For a guy that booked his own company he seemed a lot more willing than most to hand over the spotlight when he had the chance to. Sure he showed up in the Real World Tag League once a year... and the All Japan fans loved it, if nothing else. But otherwise he mostly stayed out of the top programs entirely. For a guy his age and size, he would also take bumps when he had to and wasn't pussying out of working guys like Brody and Hansen in the 80's at all. From the psychological standpoint, when given a serious match it's not like Baba didn't know what he was doing. He had a strange physical build which didn't help... he kind of looked like a 7 foot tall marathon runner (if such a thing exists I guess it would probably look like Baba) in a business where a lot of people are conditioned to look for something else. If Baba had a more traditional body type I doubt the criticism of his career from 80's-onward is as heavy. As for Prime Baba, he was really pretty awesome from what I've seen. I wish there was more of it out there. Even by the late 70's although he's still a great worker he's probably past his peak, but even so 70's Baba > a hell of a lot. Basically I find Baba hatred really annoying and short sighted. There's a ton of guys in wrestling people could pick on who probably have it coming more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 He's not the only guy whose offense looked like crap, true, but he was a standout. Even as far back as the early 80s, he looked like a slower Killer Kowalski in terms of how terrible his strikes were. I mean, literally looked like they couldn't possibly be doing any damage or causing any pain, yet his opponents were usually bumping around for this stuff as if they were getting clobbered with bricks. It's an off-putting visual, to see this guy pretending to beat people up when he so clearly isn't really capable of doing it; kinda like latter-day Hogan in some ways. If you don't understand the guy's legacy and the backstory and the style of storytellig and why the fans react to it, it's easy to see how someone might react in disbelief. Like, say someone's only exposure to Baba is some random matches here and there off some old RFVideo Best Of Whoever comp tapes. Which describes several of my wrestler friends in the business, who had the time and inclination to watch some foreign wrestling but not a whole lot of it. Can you fault them for saying "yuck, never wanna see that guy work again"? It took me several years of watching, and going back and seeing his earlier stuff from the 60s and 70s, before I was able to really "get" Baba. For those who never did that, it would be like tuning into WCW during the late 90s and wondering why the fuck this useless old Hogan guy was all over the shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Oh Baba's not exactly flawless granted. I just think the amount of venom he takes from the people who fling it is somewhat over the top. The people who hate him, obviously hate him a lot. I guess his unique qualities make him a take it or leave it kind of worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1004Holds Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Not sure if you do storylines here, but is it true that at one point the Rock was supposed to be gay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruiserBrody Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 He's not the only guy whose offense looked like crap, true, but he was a standout. Even as far back as the early 80s, he looked like a slower Killer Kowalski in terms of how terrible his strikes were. I mean, literally looked like they couldn't possibly be doing any damage or causing any pain, yet his opponents were usually bumping around for this stuff as if they were getting clobbered with bricks. It's an off-putting visual, to see this guy pretending to beat people up when he so clearly isn't really capable of doing it; kinda like latter-day Hogan in some ways. If you don't understand the guy's legacy and the backstory and the style of storytellig and why the fans react to it, it's easy to see how someone might react in disbelief. Like, say someone's only exposure to Baba is some random matches here and there off some old RFVideo Best Of Whoever comp tapes. Which describes several of my wrestler friends in the business, who had the time and inclination to watch some foreign wrestling but not a whole lot of it. Can you fault them for saying "yuck, never wanna see that guy work again"? It took me several years of watching, and going back and seeing his earlier stuff from the 60s and 70s, before I was able to really "get" Baba. For those who never did that, it would be like tuning into WCW during the late 90s and wondering why the fuck this useless old Hogan guy was all over the shows. I suffer from this as the only extensive Baba footage I have is from the 80's and i8f he wasn't putting me to ZZZZZZZZZZZ... (Wrestlerock w/Bob Brown) then he was watching his partner take fast paced hard hitting road warriors offense, then tagging in and suddenly the Roadies worked half speed and bumped off of Baba's weak chops. I respect the guy, just have no interest in going out of my way to see more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 The first Baba match anyone should see is vs Destroyer from '69. He's at his physical peak and it's top-notch old-school technical work. If you like that then maybe you'll like other 60s-70s Baba. As the style moved from milking holds to ACTION, at the same time as he became nigh immobile, wel... bad combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Not sure if you do storylines here, but is it true that at one point the Rock was supposed to be gay? I think this was alleged to be one of Vince Russo's big booking ideas when he very briefly returned to WWE in 2002. Given that it's Russo we're talking about it's certainly believable, but it could also be one of those exaggerated stories that his opponents used to bury him as his ass hit the door on the way out of the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 The first Baba match anyone should see is vs Destroyer from '69. He's at his physical peak and it's top-notch old-school technical work. If you like that then maybe you'll like other 60s-70s Baba. As the style moved from milking holds to ACTION, at the same time as he became nigh immobile, wel... bad combination. By that same token, if you're looking for a more high-energy Baba, I highly recommend his 1966 bout with Fritz Von Erich. It's a wild, out-of-control brawl, which makes a nice companion piece to the Destroyer match, showing you how he could excel in two very different situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Adding to the Solie discussion, he was supposed to be at his best in Florida but everything I've seen of him there it's like having Ben Stein call matches. I get that he's not the Don West/Jim Ross "BAH GAWD" type, but at times it comes off like he's reading off a card with no emotion whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Adding to the Solie discussion, he was supposed to be at his best in Florida but everything I've seen of him there it's like having Ben Stein call matches. I get that he's not the Don West/Jim Ross "BAH GAWD" type, but at times it comes off like he's reading off a card with no emotion whatsoever. I tend to like announcers that are more laid back and not always screaming, but Solie never did it for me. To me, he sounded bored and almost spoke of wrestling like he was above it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 I don't get Ben Stein dull droning. He has a Don Cornelius style of detachment. Watch a Cornelius interview and watch a Solie one. I don't get above it either. He's to be respected so as the stuff around him is to be respected. I've watched more WWF wrestling as a result of 24/7 then I did growing up and get the sense that the announcing there was meant more as to create a contrast. The announcers are not Mystery Science Theatre, but there is a real nudge nudge wink wink ironic feel. The wrestling plays straight man and the announcers are like the audience in on the joke. Even with Lawler's Henny Youngman routine, I think alot of what happened in the attitude era is you have the announcers as straightmen with the wrestlers being the guys in on the joke with the audience. Solie on some level is a straight man but on another level he's working for poromotions that weren't running straight man/ironic comedian contrast. It wasn't about one offsetting the other in that kind of way. Solie is to be respected not because he's above the wrestling but instead because if he's portrayed as respectable then the stuff around him (the wrestling) is also worth the same type of respect. The GCW/Memphis cooperation pointis really neat because you can watch Solie and Russell on commentary with each other and the contrast exposes each guys weaknesses as well as highlighting their strenghs. They take a while to establish a good rhythm with each other and are often accidentally stepping on each others stuff. Both guys are really good at dramatic understatement but Solies is more sports broadcaster-ish while Russell is more folksy weatherman. At one point Solie is trying to get the Batttens over as being four sports college athletes while Russell is trying to get them over as just being "swell guys". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 Not sure if you do storylines here, but is it true that at one point the Rock was supposed to be gay? I think this was alleged to be one of Vince Russo's big booking ideas when he very briefly returned to WWE in 2002. Given that it's Russo we're talking about it's certainly believable, but it could also be one of those exaggerated stories that his opponents used to bury him as his ass hit the door on the way out of the company. Wasn't the story there that Russo had some kind of lingering contractual entanglement with the WWF? That he showed up for work and pitched the very worst storylines he could think of (and when Russo is trying to be bad, whoa, just imagine) so that they'd quickly terminate his contract so he'd be free to go work for TNA, where he did show up soon afterward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Not sure if you do storylines here, but is it true that at one point the Rock was supposed to be gay? I think this was alleged to be one of Vince Russo's big booking ideas when he very briefly returned to WWE in 2002. Given that it's Russo we're talking about it's certainly believable, but it could also be one of those exaggerated stories that his opponents used to bury him as his ass hit the door on the way out of the company. Yeah Russo wanted the Rock to acquire "homosexual tendencies." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boondocks Kernoodle Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 I called into WOL about three years ago to ask about that and Dave said he had never heard it. So unless that comes from Russo himself it's just a dumb internet rumor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 I always will have a soft spot for Solie just because the first time I ever heard him calling a match was Piper/ Valentine dog collar and he just sounded like he was smart, and it was new to me. The "smartest" guy I was exposed to at the time was Monsoon. And while I've come to love Monsoon's work now, at the time as a kid I'd be like, "Oh what the fuck are you babbling about?" (Not counting Monsoon with Ventura.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruiserBrody Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Myth? : The Can-Am Connection was super over and Strike Force was just viewed as lame pretty boys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babylonianfrost Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Not sure if you do storylines here, but is it true that at one point the Rock was supposed to be gay? I think this was alleged to be one of Vince Russo's big booking ideas when he very briefly returned to WWE in 2002. Given that it's Russo we're talking about it's certainly believable, but it could also be one of those exaggerated stories that his opponents used to bury him as his ass hit the door on the way out of the company. Wasn't the story there that Russo had some kind of lingering contractual entanglement with the WWF? That he showed up for work and pitched the very worst storylines he could think of (and when Russo is trying to be bad, whoa, just imagine) so that they'd quickly terminate his contract so he'd be free to go work for TNA, where he did show up soon afterward. I actually always thought the whole Russo to WWE thing in 2002 was to somehow get him out from under Hogan's lawsuit stemming from that Bash at the Beach fiasco in 2000? Perhaps I'm wrong or reading too much into it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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