Wrestling Myth Busters

[Log]

Myth: Bruiser Brody had this incredible mind for the wrestling business.

 

Ok, so I've read stuff here and there indicating that Brody had this great mind for the business, could've been a really good booker, etc. (Don't ask me where I heard, this. I just seem to recall hearing something to this effect.) Anyway, from reading the WON recaps here, it seems like Brody did what was good for HIM, but not neccessarily for business. He refused to job, even when the program called for it (vs. Blackwell). He's known for leaving territories high and dry, etc, etc.

 

I'm not doing a good job of wording this, but maybe what I'm getting at is the question as to whether or not the circumstances of Brody's death have led to him being looked upon a bit more fondly, than if he was still around? I mean, reading these old recaps, it comes off as Brody was as big a mark for himself as anyone ever.

It's funny, I've never really heard anybody talk about his "incredible mind". Everything I've ever heard about him points to him only looking out for his own interests.

 

I could very well be wrong, but I swear that I've heard reference to him having the capacity to be a good booker or something. I guess it's just more that he's this highly regarded guy, but stuff you read from when he's alive doesn't really support that.

[BruiserBrody]

Brody booked WCCW in 87 or 88 didn't he?

[Resident Evil]

Is someone goes into business for himself that doesn't mean he doesn't have a great mind for the business. It just means he looks after himself.

 

 

Now Log brings up an interesting point about Brody not liking his face opponent taking a back drop?? Are we talking about the classic whip your oppoents into the rope bit followed by a back body drop?? Because if so, I agree with Brody that it is a face move and not a heel move at all.

 

It was one actually of those moves thas as a 13yr old I would look for heels to do because I liked my wrestling to have more of a legit feel at the time.

[Indikator]

But it's one of the most classic face payback spots. Brody is essentially saying "although I know what the spot means nobody should do it with me as I am way too awesome". Which is reaching Bret Hart levels of being delusional

[Guest Talon]

In all seriousness, you're pretty much on the money about Brody. I don't know if it's the fact that he was friendly with Meltzer, the circumstances surrounding his death, or a combination, but he's been praised for "understanding the business" because he once said that if a babyface called for a back drop, then he'd kick them in the face because they should know better. If Bubba Ray Dudley, Bob Holly, etc were to say that, the IWC would have a collective fit.

Which is kind of funny because from the few times I've heard him speak about the workings of the business, I'd have to say Bubba Ray has a great mind for the business...

 

...but thats a whole other argument right there

[Guest Talon]

alright I got a feel for this thread so here is one

 

MYTH: Hulk Hogan was a vastly superior worker while in Japan because he really did not need to work to get over in America post 1984

 

I get this because of reading the comments by Dave in the most recent WON recap from 1985 here. I've heard complimentary reviews (and seen bits and pieces of) many of Hogan's big Japanese matches (vs Inoki vs Tenryu, with Tenryu vs LOD, vs Muta, etc) and while It's true Hogan has his working shoes on, he's no better than some of his premier series of matches in the mid 80's in the US (Piper, Savage, some of the Orndorff series, some excellent matches with Muraco, the couple of matches with Terry Funk were good IMO). It's just so often Hogan was matched up with such crap to sell the fact that Hogan was superman it would appear, on paper, that his "workrate" (a term I hate and use very very loosely) was off the charts bad.

 

It's not that Hogan was totally lazy, it's just you can only do so much with some of the workers that Hogan was fed. I assure you if Hogan was put in longer series with guys like Murdoch, Adonis, Valentine or if they bring in a guy like Brody instead of the Kimala's, Bundy's and Studd's of the world then everybodys opinion of Hogan in the 80's in this country would be so much different.

[Sean Liska]

Myth: Bruiser Brody had this incredible mind for the wrestling business.

 

Ok, so I've read stuff here and there indicating that Brody had this great mind for the business, could've been a really good booker, etc. (Don't ask me where I heard, this. I just seem to recall hearing something to this effect.) Anyway, from reading the WON recaps here, it seems like Brody did what was good for HIM, but not neccessarily for business. He refused to job, even when the program called for it (vs. Blackwell). He's known for leaving territories high and dry, etc, etc.

 

I'm not doing a good job of wording this, but maybe what I'm getting at is the question as to whether or not the circumstances of Brody's death have led to him being looked upon a bit more fondly, than if he was still around? I mean, reading these old recaps, it comes off as Brody was as big a mark for himself as anyone ever.

There's a Brody shoot interview on YouTube floating around from when that type of thing was really rare. Pretty good stuff and I'd say it showed that he knew what he was talking about. When Meltzer was feuding with Vince over the Gulf War angle, he included some stories about how Brody helped him to understnd what his job was and how it wasn't to cover for wrestlers but to be a source of the truth.

 

I think part of what people admired about Brody was that he understood that wrestling promoters are all going to try and screw you, so he would beat them to the punch and screw them first. That's why he was in and out of so many territories. You wouldn't be wrong if you called that selfish, but that's territorial wrestling. Kind of like a Kevin Nash kind of smart, but less harmful.

 

Brody didn't have much of a mind for getting other guys over in the ring. Maybe he was better at that as a booker.

[Jingus]

MYTH: Hulk Hogan was a vastly superior worker while in Japan because he really did not need to work to get over in America post 1984

Hogan's vastly superior matches, as you mentioned, did tend to involve vastly superior opponents. You'd expect more from Stan Hansen or Great Muta than many of the Hulkster's lackluster American opponents. Anyway, if you watch these matches back to back, it becomes clear that Hogan only really knew a few tricks and tended to break out all of them in every one of these matches. Like, the drop toe hold and floatover to the headlock, he does that every time. Plus, as every Wrestlemania can testify, Big Match Hogan was an entirely different guy from Regular Show Hogan. But if you check out Hulk's earlier New Japan work from 1983-ish, you can see it's really not all that different from the stuff he was doing in America at the same time.

 

His "I don't have to do that to get over in America" excuse is exactly that, just excusing why he only tried to work that hard on very rare occasions. Hogan was often just a kind of lazy guy who wasn't willing (or, some might say, able) to work high-intensity matches. Certainly his early years as champion in the WWF didn't help this, with him working hundreds of house shows per year at a blistering pace; it's hard to fault anyone for taking it easy under such circumstances. Once he got to WCW, he clearly wanted to work the easiest schedule humanly possible. Can't be a coincedence that Hogan got promo time on every single Nitro but usually only wrestled maybe once a month.

[kjh]

When Meltzer was feuding with Vince over the Gulf War angle, he included some stories about how Brody helped him to understnd what his job was and how it wasn't to cover for wrestlers but to be a source of the truth.

Of course, the truth depends on who you talk to. I think befriending the leading dirt sheet writer and explaining why he screwed promoters was a really smart way to guarantee more favorable coverage from the person who was the go to guy for insider gossip. I mean he trod on a lot of people's toes and there were plenty of people willing to badmouth him, that the "truth" would have been a lot more unflattering if he hadn't befriended Meltzer.

[Ditch]

The thing with Hogan and Japan is that the difference REALLY stood out in the '90s. In the US he became a caricature of himself, doing the exact formula every time against every opponent, using the same very small number of moves and spots... then in Japan he's doing chain wrestling and giving opponents nearfalls and such.

[Bix]

Brody booked WCCW in 87 or 88 didn't he?

Yes, in '87. Gary Hart, Brody's good friend who booked Brody to promoters for various one-off dates and was a respected booker himself, said that Brody's booking wasn't very good, especially in terms of formatting TV.

[sek69]

As far as USA Hogan vs Japan Hogan, yes the opponent quality was vastly different, but let's not forget Hogan is a pretty smart guy business wise. He knew his standard US formula of "start on offense, heel comes back, Hulk-up, finish" wasn't going to fly with audiences in Japan who expected more than that from top level guys.

 

He just did what any good performer does, changes his act up based on the room.

[tomk]

alright I got a feel for this thread so here is one

 

MYTH: Hulk Hogan was a vastly superior worker while in Japan because he really did not need to work to get over in America post 1984

 

I get this because of reading the comments by Dave in the most recent WON recap from 1985 here. I've heard complimentary reviews (and seen bits and pieces of) many of Hogan's big Japanese matches (vs Inoki vs Tenryu, with Tenryu vs LOD, vs Muta, etc) and while It's true Hogan has his working shoes on, he's no better than some of his premier series of matches in the mid 80's in the US (Piper, Savage, some of the Orndorff series, some excellent matches with Muraco, the couple of matches with Terry Funk were good IMO). It's just so often Hogan was matched up with such crap to sell the fact that Hogan was superman it would appear, on paper, that his "workrate" (a term I hate and use very very loosely) was off the charts bad.

 

It's not that Hogan was totally lazy, it's just you can only do so much with some of the workers that Hogan was fed. I assure you if Hogan was put in longer series with guys like Murdoch, Adonis, Valentine or if they bring in a guy like Brody instead of the Kimala's, Bundy's and Studd's of the world then everybodys opinion of Hogan in the 80's in this country would be so much different.

Well yes no one could do anything with Big John Studd. But problem with your analysis is that it isn't that Hogan was just having spectacular matches in Japan opposite Fujinami.

 

Hogan was also having really good Japanese matches opposite Andre the Giant, Killer Khan, Abby etc.

 

I've seen enough high end Kimala and high end Bundy that the idea that we should blame Hogan's performances on his opponents seems silly.

[goodhelmet]

Yeah, we are burning through the NJ stuff right now and Hogan was pretty great in NJ... especially compared to his house work stuff in WWf.

[Dylan Waco]

Hogan was good more often than not. Hogan as mediocre worker is the real myth.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Hogan was good more often than not. Hogan as mediocre worker is the real myth.

Huh?

[Dylan Waco]

Hogan was good more often than not.

 

Don't get me wrong. I have no doubt that Hogan was a by the numbers worker at times and that Hogan wasn't the strongest of house show performers. But year-by-year Hogan tends to have a lot of good stuff and it's not just against high end opponents, on the biggest shows. I'm not calling him a great worker by any means, and there are a large number of people I would rate ahead of him, but he's hardly the bum that many smart fans made him out to be for years.

[Guest Talon]

Speaking of Hogan please correct me if I come across as stupid, but the Hogan vs Lawler match from the Mid-South (the one where Lawler comes out on the White Horse) is available in full form, yes? If so is it as good as I think it would be.

[khawk20]

Speaking of Hogan please correct me if I come across as stupid, but the Hogan vs Lawler match from the Mid-South (the one where Lawler comes out on the White Horse) is available in full form, yes? If so is it as good as I think it would be.

Actually I don't think it is available complete, just in clip-form.

[Bix]

Yeah, just clips are available of Hogan-Lawler, unfortunately.

 

As far as the Mark Henry fat/black/sweaty stuff goes, no, that wasn't towards AnarchistXX. As for the reasoning behind it, there were obviously people with fat guy wrestler bias, in addition to references that criticized his work in part due to sweatyness, and I think I counted any reference to the "stank" gimmick in criticism of ringwork as both sweaty and black based on the nature of the "stank" promos. I don't think I counted explicit uses of the term "sweaty" as "stank" and therefore also black.

[goodhelmet]

Some comments on Hogan matches from the NJ DVDVR 80s project work in progress...

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Abdullah the Butcher, 5/26/82

PHIL: Man I am kind of digging this New Japan Hogan, this is really fun as it is two charismatic over the top characters pounding on each other. Hogan is quite the blade freak as Abby bust him open fierce, we even get to see an Abby suplex. Crazy post match pull apart arena brawl. Vince really should have brought Abby in as a Hogan opponent in the 80's.

 

CHILDS: Great brawl here. Hogan bled severely for our entertainment and tossed in a vintage hulk-up. Abby expertly worked his sneaky weapon gimmicks. The fight through the stands felt chaotic rather than pro-forma. I'm happy to push this forward.

 

GH: Once Hogan starts bleeding this thing really gets good with Abby attacking the cut and Hogan fighting for his life. I mean fuck, Hogan biting Abby’s ear? I am glad this match popped up because I have been waiting for Abby to show that violent streak we see form him elsewhere.

 

 

Andre the Giant vs. Hulk Hogan, 12/9/82

CHILDS: Really good brawl. Hogan bled heavily at the end (Andre wiped it all over his face in a nice heelish touch.) But he rallied to slam Andre post-bell. It should move forward

 

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Tatsumi Fujinami, 2/5/85

Well, Hogan is working hard and he quickly takes control early on and Fujinami seems frustrated in not being able to gain any sort of advantage. Eventually he trips Hogan up and applies the sharpshooter. This results in Hogan getting a rope break and taking a breather. So far, so good. It looked like Hogan had it won with the Axe Bomber but Fujinami was able to put his foot on the ropes. I thought the match was done. After a tumble outside, Fujinami posts Hogan and he starts bleeding. Fujinami takes control inside and is pounding on the cut. Great ending as the ref tries to separate Fujinami fron Hogan and right after Fujinami pushes the ref away, he gets nailed with a lariat for the three count. Really good stuff from both guys here. Hogan gave Fujinami plenty and even allowed himself to be dominated later on before putting the match away. Thumbs up from me.

 

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Tatsumi Fujinami, 2/6/85

GH: lot of similarities to this match and the previous day’s match. However, this one feels like the 2nd match where both guys know each other enough to counter certain things. Hogan knows after he gets tied in the Sharpshooter, he needs to get out of the ring and regroup. He knew the lariat put Fujinami away before so he tried to go for it right away. Even though it ended in a counout, I loved the ending. Fujinami nailing the lariat after ducking the Hogan lariat, sending Hogan out. In a panic, Hogan pulls Fujinami out to save his hide. Good stuff. The rematch gets a nomination.

[tomk]

Don't get me wrong. I have no doubt that Hogan was a by the numbers worker at times and that Hogan wasn't the strongest of house show performers. But year-by-year Hogan tends to have a lot of good stuff and it's not just against high end opponents, on the biggest shows. I'm not calling him a great worker by any means, and there are a large number of people I would rate ahead of him, but he's hardly the bum that many smart fans made him out to be for years.

I don't know if anyone has ever called him a Graham, Ventura, Nash, Ron Reiss, Studd level bum but that's aiming the bar low.

 

24/7 is a great resource and I have seen him get outworked by WWF era JYD in tags a couple times.

 

You can watch late 90s matches with Page or tagged with Rodman where he contributes more positively.

 

And its quite possible that it is a myth that he was "lazy" working in the WWF when the truth was that he did as he was told and worked WWF formula that was aked of him.

 

As far as the Mark Henry fat/black/sweaty stuff goes, no, that wasn't towards AnarchistXX.

Yes but he was someone who was deeply hurt by that accusation and regularly made the "people are prejudiced against the opinions of bigots" plea. I didn't want to make it, but it's a fair shot. And really would be improper to revisit the old threads without keeping it in mind.

[Al]

More likely Hogan was working an insane travel schedule that limited his workrate. There are stories of Hogan wrestling in two different time zones in the same day. That can not have a positive effect.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

I don't really know anything about AnarchistXX other than that whenever he says something like "I don't like the Sandman," Phil Schneider or Tomk will respond with "What, you don't like him because he teamed with Too COON Scorpio, you Klansman?" I assume at some point he must have expressed some views that could be construed as racist, but with these reactionary DVDVR folks that could be as simple as preferring Owen Hart to Butch Reed.

[Jingus]

I don't know the little porch monkey either (I'm taking it back!), but it does seem like every single post he ever makes gets a reaction of FUCK YOU RAYCIST from the older guys here.

 

More likely Hogan was working an insane travel schedule that limited his workrate. There are stories of Hogan wrestling in two different time zones in the same day. That can not have a positive effect.

He's not the only one, Flair frequently did the same thing and never seemed the worse for wear. Of course, Flair is a cardiovascular freak of nature, while Hogan... is not.