Who Is Better?

[NintendoLogic]

It doesn't look like anybody's going to get it, so here's the correct answer (or at least the one I came up with). Both were inspirations for fighting game characters. Vader was the inspiration for Raiden/Big Bear of the Fatal Fury and King of Fighters series, while Andre was the inspiration for Hugo of the Street Fighter 3 series.

 

Hiroshi Hase or Mariko Yoshida?

[Chess Knight]

The Big Show's matches with the Undertaker smoke Kane's as well. I can't imagine why anyone could think Kane is the better of the two, honestly.

[El-P]

Hiroshi Hase or Mariko Yoshida?

Yoshida.

Hase's career is well documented, he was a superb worker from the mid 80's to the mid 90's, and although his days as a juniors might not may remembered favorably these days, his peak as a workrate machine of NJ in the early 90's makes him a contender as one of the best japanese worker or the era. That being said, he has been rather disapointing during his comeback in AJ. Not meshing that well with the AJ style (which was surprising since Hase was all about stiffness and workrate, which suited the spirit), not delivering on a regular basis like he would before, although Hase was still good in the later part of his career, he wasn't a great wrestler anymore.

Yoshida's early career is not as well known, because she was not pushed as much as girls like Takako, Hasegawa, and because she got injured just before the interpromotionnal eras, missing some of the biggest shows ever. Still, watching Yoshida in the early 90 makes it clear she quickly became an excellent worker, to me she was better than Toyota in 1992, and she remained an excellent worker despite the lack of push and bad outifits until she left AJW. Then, she reinvented herself in ARSION, turned into an über sexy and sleek matwork machine, created her own style that no one could follow (except Yumi Fukawa) and to me became the best wrestler in the world at that time. Lack of lot of good competition made it tough to get great matches back then, but she's been consistently superb since then, and people who followed the scene in the following crumbling years never reported any kind of drop in her work. She was also noted for being one hell of a trainer.

Peak vs Peak, Yoshida is better. Career vs Career, Yoshida takes the cake too, her years in AJW are very underrated and about as good as anything Hase did during his peak (for the mid-90's).

[JerryvonKramer]

Mooney just struck me as yet another of the WWF's shitty announcers in the 80s / early 90s. If you're going to be shitty, at least entertain me with your shittiness like Kal Rudman and Dick Graham did.

Mooney's best work wasn't on tv or in the booth, but on the Colesium Home Videos.

 

Him and Lord Alfred Hayes were a great double act.

 

Also whenever they do call matches, their commentary is so bad that it entertains me.

 

What I loved about Mooney is that he always spoke in really unlikely cliched sentences that a marketing department might write.

 

"When the two superstars meet inside the squared circle"

 

He always called The Undertaker "the advanced man for the Grim Reaper"

[Matt D]

Hayes is actually a super fun color commentator before 91 or so. He starts to slip after that. The very best thing about Hayes is that he'd watch the match and pull together a narrative which had NOTHING to do with what was going on in the ring. But he'd work really hard to lace it together and it'd make sense. It just wouldn't be what you were watching. He was a really solid storyteller, just.. a bit askew. Highly entertaining.

[MJH]

Hiroshi Hase or Mariko Yoshida?

Yoshida.

Hase's career is well documented, he was a superb worker from the mid 80's to the mid 90's, and although his days as a juniors might not may remembered favorably these days, his peak as a workrate machine of NJ in the early 90's makes him a contender as one of the best japanese worker or the era. That being said, he has been rather disapointing during his comeback in AJ. Not meshing that well with the AJ style (which was surprising since Hase was all about stiffness and workrate, which suited the spirit), not delivering on a regular basis like he would before, although Hase was still good in the later part of his career, he wasn't a great wrestler anymore.

Yoshida's early career is not as well known, because she was not pushed as much as girls like Takako, Hasegawa, and because she got injured just before the interpromotionnal eras, missing some of the biggest shows ever. Still, watching Yoshida in the early 90 makes it clear she quickly became an excellent worker, to me she was better than Toyota in 1992, and she remained an excellent worker despite the lack of push and bad outifits until she left AJW. Then, she reinvented herself in ARSION, turned into an über sexy and sleek matwork machine, created her own style that no one could follow (except Yumi Fukawa) and to me became the best wrestler in the world at that time. Lack of lot of good competition made it tough to get great matches back then, but she's been consistently superb since then, and people who followed the scene in the following crumbling years never reported any kind of drop in her work. She was also noted for being one hell of a trainer.

Peak vs Peak, Yoshida is better. Career vs Career, Yoshida takes the cake too, her years in AJW are very underrated and about as good as anything Hase did during his peak (for the mid-90's).

 

Yes. And Hase is my favourite NJ worker of that era.

 

Flik did a great job in elevating Yoshida in peoples' minds during his run-through of 1992 Zenjo. I don't think she was better than Toyota (though more well-rounded), I think there're times in their JGP match on 8/30 where you can tell Toyota is more experienced in higher-profiled matches, but there's no question Yoshida would've been a big addition to the inter-promotional war. I do sometimes wonder though if, perhaps, it was in missing those two years that she was able to be at her peak much later than the other girls. But even something like her 8/91 match with Takako (JGP '91 tournament, I forget the exact date, 8/18?) is, as I remember it, a pretty-perfect 'young girls' match in Zenjo, full of exhuberence, with strong selling from Yoshida and a killer bump that decides the match (and plays into that exhuberency).

[El-P]

Flik did a great job in elevating Yoshida in peoples' minds during his run-through of 1992 Zenjo.

Indeed. FLIK keeps the joshi flame alive, which is no small feat.

I used to do some pimping posts on 1992 myself back in 2003 or so, but nobody noticed then.

 

I don't think she was better than Toyota (though more well-rounded), I think there're times in their JGP match on 8/30 where you can tell Toyota is more experienced in higher-profiled matches, but there's no question Yoshida would've been a big addition to the inter-promotional war.

Keep in mind, when I say she was better than Toyota in 92, it also takes in account the fact I think Toyota wasn't that great at this point. Yoshida went way up and Toyota went down (quite a bit) during my 1992 AJW watch.

 

I do sometimes wonder though if, perhaps, it was in missing those two years that she was able to be at her peak much later than the other girls.

Maybe, but considering the style she worked (with a bit more lucha style and matwork) and the way she was doing it (smarter than say, Toyota), I don't think it would have made much a difference. Girls like Shimoda and Takako peaked after the interpromotionnal era too despite being deeply involved in it, and Yoshida would have worked at their level on the cards, probably in tags, and not in big long single matches. I think what made her peak was her will to reinvent herself in a totally new style, in which she excelled. She would have done it anyway after leaving AJW and the feather hats behind.

[ohtani's jacket]

There's no way that Yoshida's AJW work is as good as Hase's peak. I don't even like Hase and I think that's a crazy statement.

[El-P]

Ok, not as great, but not quite the gap some would think. Yoshida was already a superb worker as early as 1992, and after her injury, she made a comeback not missing a beat near workers like Toyota (who was peaking) and Hasegawa (peaking too).

So let me rephrase this :

 

Yoshida's peak >>> Hase's peak.

Yoshida post prime >>> Hase's post prime.

Yoshida before her prime = Hase before his prime.

 

So yeah, while Hase's peak > Yoshida before her peak, there's not a lot of argument I can make for Hase overall. And I love both.

[ohtani's jacket]

Yoshida wasn't a superb worker in '92. She was a promising youngster who had good matches with her peers and was carried by Kyoko in the JGP. Yoshida was great for about 18 months while working a style that her company ultimately dropped. I'd take Hase's career output over that if I were even the teeniest bit interested in New Japan.

[jdw]

How does one take Hase's career output if one isn't the teeniest bit interested in New Japan?

 

John

[El-P]

Yoshida wasn't a superb worker in '92.

And Takada was a shitty worker, I know the drill. I disagree. Yoshida, for her experience level and the spot she worked on the card, was excellent.

 

She was a promising youngster who had good matches with her peers and was carried by Kyoko in the JGP.

She wasn't carried. She more than brought her share to the match. Now, I think Kyoko was a great fucking worker in 1992, and Yoshida was more than able to hang up with her. Yoshida was better than Toyota, Yamada, Hasegawa, Takako and plenty other.

 

Yoshida was great for about 18 months while working a style that her company ultimately dropped.

Yoshida was great working her own style, despite what the company did or not, from 1998 and on. She was great opposing Candy Okutsu in 98, and Candy didn't exactly worked like Fukawa. She was great against Asuka in 2002 too, and god knows I'm not a big fan of Asuka's style.

 

I'd take Hase's career output over that if I were even the teeniest bit interested in New Japan.

Well, that says all there is to say there.

[ohtani's jacket]

That's some rampant Yoshida fanboyism right now. She was put in lengthy matches in '92 with other midcard girls to raise their stature and get them over. She did a good job in those matches, but she wasn't on the level of a Toyota or Yamada in the hierarchy or as a worker. She was carried by Kyoko otherwise they would have had better matches. None of Yoshida's matches that year were great; they're worth watching because they were nice matches that filled in the year and gave a decent picture of what was happening on the rest of the card. After ARSION changed direction, her best match was another shoot style bout against Megumi Fujii. There's no need to compare her with the Shawn Michaels of Japanese wrestling, however.

[El-P]

That's some rampant Yoshida fanboyism right now.

Well, she's my all-time favourite wrestler ever, so that too. That said, I was very surprised to discover that she ruled so much back in 92 when I did. I watched this with an open mind and not a "Yoshida will be the pearl of my joshi watch no matter what" mindset. I'm not saying she was the greatest wrestler in 1992. Kyoko, Oz, Aja, Bull, Hokuto, Kansai were clearly better. But was she better than Toyota ? Yes she was in my mind, no doubt about that, and that's after I watched most matches of the year, not before.

 

She was put in lengthy matches in '92 with other midcard girls to raise their stature and get them over. She did a good job in those matches, but she wasn't on the level of a Toyota or Yamada in the hierarchy or as a worker.

Re-watching 1992/1993, I found Yamada very overrated as a worker, which surprised me. Some great performances, but uneven. Toyota wasn't that great in 1992 either.

 

She was carried by Kyoko otherwise they would have had better matches.

Kyoko vs Yoshida in 1992 >> Kyoko vs Toyota (speaking about that IWA title match).

 

None of Yoshida's matches that year were great; they're worth watching because they were nice matches that filled in the year and gave a decent picture of what was happening on the rest of the card.

She had lot of very good and excellent matches in the year, more than just "nice matches". Yes, she was still young and not developped, but for her experience level and what she was working with in term of tool, I say she was excellent. if anything, to me she overachieved in 92. And she never had a match as horrible as the 40 minute draw that Toyota and Yamada had on 01/04.

 

I dug up my old notes about 1992, and here are my 10 top singles matches :

 

1 : 11/26 Akira Hokuto vs Kyoko Inoue (22 :16)

2 : 08/15 Manami Toyota vs Toshiyo Yamada (19 :43)

3 : 07/05 Kyoko Inoue vs Mariko Yoshida (30 :00)

4 : 06/21 Mariko Yoshida vs Sakie Hasegawa (30 :00)

5 : 01/04 Akira Hokuto vs Kyoko Inoue (24 :54)

6 : 07/09 Mayumi Ozaki vs Dynamite Kansai (25 :11)

7 : 04/25 Bull Nakano vs Aja Kong (21 :40)

8 : 08/30 Kyoko Inoue vs Mariko Yoshida (15:22)

9 : 11/26 Bull Nakano vs Aja Kong (20:19)

10 : 06/21 Toshiyo Yamada vs Manami Toyota (26 :16)

 

So yes, Toyota vs Yamada did pull out a miraculous match once. But overall, 2 Yoshida vs Kyoko matches and Yoshida vs Hasegawa abocve any other Toyota/Yamada matches. Yoshida vs Toyota during the Grand Prix was much worse than the Kyoko match, and that's not because of Yoshida but because Toyota just gets in autopilot mode instead of getting the best out of her opponent like Kyoko could. Yoshida was better than Toyota in 92, and there's no other way to look at things to me.

Toyota/Yamada worked really well as a team, because it also hide their weaknesses, and they got some great tag team matches that year. But they also never were the best in any great match. Oz & Kansai were better. Kyoko & Aja were better. And you got Yoshida & Takako vs Hasegawa & Malenko as my third best tag match of the year, a bunch of youngins working way over their heads and having a fantastic match.

 

There's no need to compare her with the Shawn Michaels of Japanese wrestling, however.

WTF ?

[ohtani's jacket]

I wanted to compare Takada to another flakey ass wrestler and the Shawn Michaels comparison amused me. It's a bit unfair on Michaels, tho.

 

I still think you're overstating Yoshida's 92 and I don't agree that she was better than Toyota or Yamada, but accepting all that, how does it put Yoshida on the level of Hase? If, for argument's sake, we define Hase's peak as his shift into the heavyweight ranks then surely the comparable period is either his OE period (overseas experience) or his early juniors work. I'm not trying to be snarky here. Objectively speaking, his experience level was far above Yoshida's. To say a midcard Joshi worker was better than one of the better heavyweights in Japan is a bit extreme. She may have been more fun to watch for a Joshi fan, but if you said that Kyoko was better than Hase then that's something I could buy. To me, Yoshida was below Takako's '93 and I don't know if you could argue for Takako's '93 as being anything more than underrated. There's a bunch of 80s Joshi midcard workers who were comparable to '92 Yoshida. I don't see how she hit such great heights but I guess I'm not a huge fan.

[El-P]

I wanted to compare Takada to another flakey ass wrestler and the Shawn Michaels comparison amused me. It's a bit unfair on Michaels, tho.

Comedian.

 

I still think you're overstating Yoshida's 92 and I don't agree that she was better than Toyota or Yamada, but accepting all that, how does it put Yoshida on the level of Hase?

I rectified it 2 days ago when I said that, ok, she wasn't as great as Hase was at the same time.

 

If, for argument's sake, we define Hase's peak as his shift into the heavyweight ranks then surely the comparable period is either his OE period (overseas experience) or his early juniors work. I'm not trying to be snarky here. Objectively speaking, his experience level was far above Yoshida's.

That's also part of my point. Considering her experience level in 1992, Yoshida was really a super worker. As great as Hase at this point ? No. But balancing the experience level between the two and the fact Yoshida wasn't supposed to have the great matches Hase was (as a junior then a heavy workhorse), I say the gap isn't that big, and certainly not big enough to put Hase above Yoshida on a career vs career scale.

 

To say a midcard Joshi worker was better than one of the better heavyweights in Japan is a bit extreme. She may have been more fun to watch for a Joshi fan, but if you said that Kyoko was better than Hase then that's something I could buy.

I don't know. I love NJ heavies from that time period, and Hase was great. Was Kyoko better ? Quite possibly.

 

To me, Yoshida was below Takako's '93 and I don't know if you could argue for Takako's '93 as being anything more than underrated. There's a bunch of 80s Joshi midcard workers who were comparable to '92 Yoshida. I don't see how she hit such great heights but I guess I'm not a huge fan.

Sadly I never got to put up notes about 1993. I have tapes somewhere I bought from Lynch with about the entire year of joshi. I should rewatch this. That is, when I get done with WCW, and then the SMW I'm getting. And I'm planning of getting into older AJ & NJ stuff too eventually. Need time...

[MJH]

Yoshida debuted in late-88. The comparative period for Hase would be mid-89 - mid-90.

 

It is worth bearing it mind that Kyoko debuted from the same class as Yoshida; I wouldn't be playing the 'inexperienced/super-rookie' card for her.

 

But... the Yoshida '92 argument is 'she was clearly showing signs of becoming a great worker down the round' and never that she was a fully-formed 'great worker' undervalued by the company (that was later).

 

I've no problem with Jerome saying 'Yoshida > Toyota/Yamada in'92' because she'd do more long-term selling and was less of a 'sprint' worker. Then again, Zenjo was a sprint promotion.

[El-P]

It is worth bearing it mind that Kyoko debuted from the same class as Yoshida; I wouldn't be playing the 'inexperienced/super-rookie' card for her.

Hell, that totally got out of my mind. I was thinking she debuted with Hasegawa. That makes Kyoko a freak. 4 years in, she was the third best worker in the company behind Bull & Hokuto.

 

But... the Yoshida '92 argument is 'she was clearly showing signs of becoming a great worker down the round' and never that she was a fully-formed 'great worker' undervalued by the company (that was later).

Yes.

 

I've no problem with Jerome saying 'Yoshida > Toyota/Yamada in'92' because she'd do more long-term selling and was less of a 'sprint' worker. Then again, Zenjo was a sprint promotion.

I'm not sure I'd say that. Toyota/Yamada inprints on the promotion surely influenced its style for the years to come, but Bull and Hokuto were big on selling. Ditto Aja and Bison. My beef with Toyota & Yamada go-go-go style is that even when they did hit the great matches, they were never the best at their own style. Kyoko was better at it. When Oz & Kansai showed up from a company which worked a slower style, they were better too.

[Loss]

Sure, AJW was a sprint promotion, but the 6/92 Toyota/Yamada match has plenty of sitting on the mat.

[MJH]

I've always judged a promotion by how it handles its rookies.

 

WWE has them go in, follow the 3-part formula to a tee, no digressions, with a simple moveset.

 

NJPW has them go on, and predominantly work the mat, which is the staple of the first-half of their matches.

 

AJW had them go in, and do the simple spots they could do (dropkicks~!), with lots of rope-running, but most importantly, it was about keeping up a certain (ie fast) pace. It didn't matter how many dropkicks, running mares, etc that they did, provided the pace was kept up. There'd be a smattering of matwork, sure, but it was all about that pacing.

[Kostka]

This one should split the crowd: Jerry Lawler or Jumbo Tsuruta?

[ohtani's jacket]

Yoshida debuted in late-88. The comparative period for Hase would be mid-89 - mid-90.

I don't agree with a straight up fourth year comparison. Kyoko, Takako and Yoshida were from the same class but the Inoues were pushed before her with Kyoko getting the early push that was meant for Takako. Hase's push began in '87. His juniors career would make a better comparison. Because of Yoshida's knee injury, you could limit it to Hase's '88 against Yoshida's '92.

[FLIK]

That being said, he has been rather disapointing during his comeback in AJ. Not meshing that well with the AJ style (which was surprising since Hase was all about stiffness and workrate, which suited the spirit)

Haven't seen a much of Hase in All Japan but I actually really loved his singles vs Kobashi & Kawada. Some of my fav matches i've seen any of those 3 involved in.

 

Yoshida's early career is not as well known, because she was not pushed as much as girls like Takako, Hasegawa, and because she got injured just before the interpromotionnal eras

What's funny is that actually she was way ahead of Sakie & Tak on the pecking order until she got injured. By the time she came back they were far ahead of her though and she had no chance of catching up but had she not gone out Yoshida would have been on the same lvl.

 

She was carried by Kyoko otherwise they would have had better matches.

The 30 min draw was more them experimenting with diffrent stuff after getting to head to Mexico then either's usuall style. Them busting out a few comedy spots may lean a bit more towards Kyoko's influence then Yoshida's but other then that nothing screams that either one is carrying the other. The rematch the next month was more traditional type stuff but Yoshida matched Kyoko move for move and wasn't being carried at all as she'd done that type of thing a bunch of times with several other ppl that year. I agree both matches fall into the "really good but not quite as great as they could have been" catagory but it def wasn't due to Yoshida being the lesser worker.

 

There's a bunch of 80s Joshi midcard workers who were comparable to '92 Yoshida.

I'd agree but that's more praise for 80's AJW then a slag on Yoshida.

 

Hmmm.... Yoshida vs Yumi Ogura vs Kazue Nagahori

 

I've no problem with Jerome saying 'Yoshida > Toyota/Yamada in'92' because she'd do more long-term selling and was less of a 'sprint' worker. Then again, Zenjo was a sprint promotion.

I'm not sure I'd say that. Toyota/Yamada inprints on the promotion surely influenced its style for the years to come, but Bull and Hokuto were big on selling. Ditto Aja and Bison.

Well, the sprint stuff is def the most high profile representation of AJW but yeah, there were way too many girls on the roster who were great sellers and great at working slower paced, slower built stuff to paint brush the whole company that way, especially during the time frame mentioned. Like someone (OJ?) mentioned earlier they did get away from it a little bit more as time went on tho.

 

Sean Mooney or Todd Pettengill?

Pettengill easy

I mean fuck it, WWF was still primarilly targetting kids at the time and I was a kid at that time and I dug the guy back then so he did his job. I have pretty much nothing but positive/happy memories of Pettengill in the early to mid 90's. Mooney even as a youngster I always saw as too bland & unexciting.

[El-P]

That being said, he has been rather disapointing during his comeback in AJ. Not meshing that well with the AJ style (which was surprising since Hase was all about stiffness and workrate, which suited the spirit)

Haven't seen a much of Hase in All Japan but I actually really loved his singles vs Kobashi & Kawada. Some of my fav matches i've seen any of those 3 involved in.

He was still good of course, very good at times even, but I don't think he meshed as well as he could have in his prime. I remember a very disapointing match with Jun Akiyama in 98.

 

What's funny is that actually she was way ahead of Sakie & Tak on the pecking order until she got injured. By the time she came back they were far ahead of her though and she had no chance of catching up but had she not gone out Yoshida would have been on the same lvl.

True. I was talking about the mid 90's when she came back and was lost in the shuffle while Takako was world tag champ and Hasegawa was the next big thing.

[El-P]

I've got one for you :

 

Arn Anderson or Bobby Eaton ?