Who Is Better?

[Loss]

Bobby Eaton, all the way, and I'm a huge Arn fan. Eaton was a phenomenal high flyer by the standards of the 80s and was at times considered top five in the world. Arn, while someone I really like, was never viewed at that level.

[ohtani's jacket]

Arn smokes Eaton as far as I'm concerned, but I'd like to know if 20+ years later anyone would really consider Eaton to have been top five in the world.

[Dylan Waco]

I think Arn and Bobby are a VERY close comparison. Normally you would reflexively say that Eaton is the better tag worker or the better offensive worker, but Arn is a pretty great tag worker and actually a MUCH better offensive wrestler than people remember. He is NOT as dynamic as Eaton, but he also doesn't have a period like Blue Bloods era Eaton where it seems like there should have been plenty of good stuff and there just isn't. Both are excellent brawlers. Eaton is a crazier bumper, but Arn is a good bumper and his stooging/selling/facials are superior to Arn's. Eaton was probably in more great matches because of the Midnights, but Arn has more singles performances that stand out.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think Arn has a lot more charisma than Eaton as well as much much better promo skills.

 

Eaton might be the better worker, but Arn is the better total package in my view.

[Dylan Waco]

Well that is definitely true. Arn is one of the best promos of all time

[JerryvonKramer]

While we're at this, why not ask this one too:

 

Dennis Condrey or Ole Anderson?

[El-P]

Arn smokes Eaton as far as I'm concerned, but I'd like to know if 20+ years later anyone would really consider Eaton to have been top five in the world.

Well, in 1990 Eaton was the best wrestler in WCW. I really don't see who was better than him in WWF at the same time, so that makes him the best wrestler in the US for that year to me.

I'm gonna have a blast watching them evolve in WCW. Of course Eaton faded quicker than Arn, but I think it was also due to a lack of push at some point. Eaton was also already really excellent in the early 80's, even before the MX days, so I think he gets the longevity nod no matter what. But yeah, close call on the long run, although I think I would give it to Eaton as far as better matches goes. Arn was of course an amazing promo.

 

Condrey was much better than Ole, who never did much for me, but to be honest I have seen few Ole matches from his prime. But Condrey was a really good worker.

 

That makes me thing about this :

 

Bobby Eaton or Robert Gibson

Tom Pritchard or Tommy Rogers

Terry Taylor or Brad Armstrong

[Dylan Waco]

While we're at this, why not ask this one too:

 

Dennis Condrey or Ole Anderson?

Ole sucks. Seriously I fucking hate Ole Anderson. Eats his opponent alive every time no matter what. As bad as Brody, but at least Brody had the look and a cool entrance. Condrey laps Ole twelve times.

[Loss]

Arn smokes Eaton as far as I'm concerned, but I'd like to know if 20+ years later anyone would really consider Eaton to have been top five in the world.

Good question to be answered through 80s yearbooks eventually, but 1990 will be sometime this year, and Eaton has plenty of singles and tags that will make the set that will make that question easier to answer. That's considered his peak year much of the time.

[Matt D]

Are 80s yearbooks really doable? There's just so much more content when the territories are active.

[ohtani's jacket]

Satanico, El Dandy, Fujiwara, Jumbo and Bull Nakano strike me as better than Bobby Eaton in 1990 (to name five), but I guess it's open to debate.

[Loss]

Are 80s yearbooks really doable? There's just so much more content when the territories are active.

We'll find out, but I think they will be.

[El-P]

Satanico, El Dandy, Fujiwara, Jumbo and Bull Nakano strike me as better than Bobby Eaton in 1990 (to name five), but I guess it's open to debate.

I'm not saying he was a certain top 5 in the world, as I would put several japanese workers above him in that context, and I'm not familiar with Mexico, but he's at least Top 2 as far as the US goes.

[El-P]

Are 80s yearbooks really doable? There's just so much more content when the territories are active.

We'll find out, but I think they will be.

 

Won't they overlap the 80's project though ?

[Loss]

No. Promotions like Stampede that aren't going to have a DVDVR set will be heavily featured. Plus, we have a lot more space to play around with. Everything on the DVDVR sets will be on the yearbook, PLUS everything considered for the DVDVR sets that didn't make them, PLUS more local promos and week-to-week things that are worth seeing, PLUS stuff that has historical meaning. They're the yearbooks I look forward to more than any others, but they will be the last ones we do.

 

Each set has a different purpose. One is to look at the best a promotion had to offer in a decade, and one is an attempt to put together the global history of pro wrestling that's as thorough as space limitations will allow.

[Al]

I know the answer but this is fun to think through.

 

Tiger Mask or Rey Mysterio Jr.?

[Loss]

Pretty easily Rey. With Tiger Mask, his shoot-style stuff should be included in the discussion to be fair, and it certainly bolsters his case, but Rey has been great for a very, very long time.

[El-P]

I love Sayama's UWF stuff. And I guess I wouldn't be down on his Tiger Mask stuff as much as people seem to be these days (although I was never a huge fan to begin with and always thought he was overrated).

I think Rey's WWE stuff is overrated and don't believe the "second peak" talking point about Rey.

Still, Rey smokes Samaya seven ways to Sunday.

[KB8]

Satanico, El Dandy, Fujiwara, Jumbo and Bull Nakano strike me as better than Bobby Eaton in 1990 (to name five), but I guess it's open to debate.

I'm not saying he was a certain top 5 in the world, as I would put several japanese workers above him in that context, and I'm not familiar with Mexico, but he's at least Top 2 as far as the US goes.

 

I've thought Eaton was the best in the US in '90 for a couple years now. The MX run that year was really great, and Eaton is just HUGE for all of it. I mean, shit, I probably like Stan Lane more than 90% of the people here, but Eaton was on a totally different level the whole time they were together that year. Like in the Bash match opposite the Southern Boys -- Lane's karate "stand-off" with Smothers is a moment I've always marked for, but other than that, Lane doesn't really do anything of note the whole time. Eaton is pretty clearly carrying his team, and that match is fucking awesome largely because of him and Smothers.

 

I get the sense I'd think his case is only strengthened if I were to get a hold of all the TV from that year.

 

I'd say Dandy, Jumbo and Fujiwara were definitely ahead of him worldwide. I've got a ton of CMLL TV from '90 sitting here that I haven't started working my way through yet, but there are other guys that have looked great in what I've already seen (largely the 1990 stuff that made Will's Dandy set. There being a good deal of trios matches on that set gives you a good look at a decent amount of guys). Don't really know shit about joshi for that year, though.

 

Basically, if he's not a lock for the top 5 worldwide, he's got enough good-great performances/matches that he at LEAST deserves consideration. And limiting it to the US he has a strong case for #1.

[Dylan Waco]

If any of these are rehashed forgive me, but with the AWA Set and the discussion on Flair/Bock in the other thread I'm bumping this with a few more....

 

 

Jerry Blackwell or Vader?

 

Ed Wiskowski/Col. Debeers or Dutch Mantell? (This comparison seems weirder than it is, but I'll explain it when I post my reply a little later)

 

Ken Patera or Don Muraco?

 

Nick Bockwinkel or Ric Flair?

[Johnny Sorrow]

1. Jerry Blackwell or Vader? After seeing what I've seen from the AWA set, I'm saying Blackwell. Blackwell was just done and gone when I first saw AWA in the 80's so the set has really shown me just how awesome he was. Give me the short giant fat guy who taunts like a crazy redneck and bumps like a pinball over the fat guy with a jockstrap on his face.

 

Ed Wiskowski/Col. Debeers or Dutch Mantell? : I love Wiskowski, but Dutch is on that "other level" as far as I'm concerned.

 

Ken Patera or Don Muraco?: Oh Muraco in a cakewalk. The Magnificent Muraco was cool as fuck AND had people frothing at the mouth wanting him to die. "Smart" fans of the day called him a lazy beach bum..so they made it part of his character. Patera, while great, always side absorbed heat. He absorbed Blackwell and Sheik's heat and he absorbed Studd and Heenan's heat.

 

Nick Bockwinkel or Ric Flair?: Flair, if only for the fact we never got to see Bock travel territories and work with all the local heroes and stiffs. But Bockwinkel was so fucking awesome.

[Dylan Waco]

Blackwell v. Vader

 

To my mind these are the best two super heavyweights ever. If someone wanted to argue for Andre I wouldn't consider it whacky, but I don't know if I could personally rate him above either of these guys absent a lot more quality Andre footage bursting to the surface.

 

Up until the rewatch of the AWA Set I'm doing right now I would have picked Vader pretty easily. Now I'm not so sure. Vader does have a longer run as a quality worker or at least a longer run as a quality worker that we have documented. In theory Vader has more stylistic range, though I'm not sure how much of a reality that actually is. Yes he could work effectively in UWFI's version of shoot style and WCW at the same time and they were clearly different promotions. But with Vader it was always the Vader show to one degree or another and I don't think there is nearly as much variance as there looks to be on paper. Vader also had the huge advantage of working his best matches against other good workers in their prime or guys like Inoki or Flair who may have been passed their prime but still had physical skills and talents that could be deployed for memorable spots/moments in a match. Meanwhile Blackwell was working guys who were passed their prime (Robinson, Crusher, Mad Dog, to a lesser degree Eadie) or guys who outright sucked (Brody, Kevin Kelly), while generally avoiding the best guys in the company with a few exceptions here or there. When he did get chances against guys like Lawler or Butch Reed he had truly great matches and his match v. Mad Dog Vachon is arguably an even more impressive "fat guy leads old man to great match performance than Vader v. Inoki.

 

It's perhaps unfair to note that Blackwell was a better face and a better tag worker, though both things are obvious. Vader didn't get the chances either place, but I see little to suggest he would have been better in either role. To a large degree Blackwell's face work is almost amazingly great considering the character he had portrayed for years and the way he was able to retool and still use his great body language but in different ways. I don't think Vader could ever sell the way Blackwell could. Both were great bumpers, but Blackwell seemed crazier AND less over the top all at once. Vader was stiffer, but it's not clear that he was a better brawler. Vader did have more incredible highspots and was very good at building toward them, but I don't think his highspots were THAT much more incredible than Blackwell's.

 

In a lot of ways I think this is a perfect case of output v. input. Vader has more meat because of footage issues, longevity, opportunity. Blackwell I would give the edge (albeit not a huge edge) on the particulars of the game (bumping, selling, timing, versatility, et). I don't really think I could justify Blackwell over Vader because Vader has at least twice as many high quality matches on tape - probably more. But this is a real test for me when it comes to the question of what you value more output or input

[Timbo Slice]

The problem with Bock will always be a lack of footage compared to Flair, and along with Flair peaking as Bock was on his career decline (although his "decline" is also fucking incredible for a guy hitting his stride in his late 40s and early 50s in the AWA) at the same time that JCP was getting regular television with him as the focal point, Flair's greatness was more on display. But Nick fucking Bockwinkle is a GREAT wrestler. I can't wait to see the AWA stuff with him.

[Timbo Slice]

Earlier in the thread, the talking point about how Vader matches were pretty by the numbers and what not got me thinking about what other matches Vader could possibly have with people that weren't your typical monster vs. babyface with hot comebacks and it's tough to see him having any other type of match, regardless of style or promotion. Blackwell might have been a nuttier bumper, but Vader was a GREAT seller. He was a big fat dude, but was only about 6'3", meaning that taller guys (think Sting, Dustin, etc.) could stand toe-to-toe to him and look like they're legitimately making things difficult for someone who outweighs him by about 200 lbs. And once Vader went down, the crowd bought it as something immense that he was taken off his feet. Interestingly enough, nobody props up Cactus next to Vader for his best opponent, and while the Sting matches are truly great, his match with Jack at Havoc '93 might be one of the craziest brawls I've ever seen, and Vader selling all the nutty stuff that Jack tries to throw at him is something to watch.

 

Blackwell was so unique that you had the ability to put him in different spots and let his versatility show, but with someone like Vader, you really couldn't put him in any other spot than "monster heel". That being said, he was so impressive as a heel that if he had ever turned face, I have little doubt that he would have been successful, but he was best working as a heel cutting people off with his power and being a bully. Blackwell works as an overweight wrestler with a more complete overall wrestling package, but Vader's overall package, while lacking the strengths that Blackwell has over him in versatility, bumping or what have you, is probably the best super heavyweight heel ever due to his presence and his ability to make a seemingly tired traditional wrestling matchup and make things interesting no matter who he faced. I'm glad Blackwell is being seen as a top flight wrestler, but Vader still has the advantage over him in the long haul.

 

Keeping on the comparisons, I'm really surprised this one hasn't been brought up yet: Vader or Aja Kong?

[Dylan Waco]

Wiskowski v. Dutch

 

This is sort of an oddball one on paper, but I've been thinking a lot about how Buddy Rose didn't have a Dundee "other" at all the way Lawler did. Probably the best semi-constant guy from Portland was Big Ed Wiskowski who was more comparable to a Dutch in terms of tenure, placement on the card, value to the promotion et than he was to Dundee. So that's where the comparison comes from. Well that and the rad facial hair.

 

I am a pretty huge Dutch fan and I was the only guy to rank him in the originally SC GWE poll. Very unheralded in ring talent, who was more of a general than he is given credit for and was more than just a straight brawler thought that was where he excelled and where his most memorable moments came.

 

But I think Wiskowski was probably better. As an over all act Dutch may have been better because while Debeers promos were fucking hilarious and Wiskowski was good on the stick in Portland too, Dutch had more versatility on the mic and was more of a serious, straight shooting type, which is a style I tend to favor. He was also a great color guy in the booth for SMW not that that matters.

 

Still in the ring I tend to think Wiskowski is one of the real diamonds in the rough of the 80's. Excellent theatrical bumper, particularly for a guy of his size. He was able to do that without ever coming across as less menacing. Great offensive wrestler too as everything he did was done with major force and and an extra degree of violence. As Debeers he was one of the great squash match workers of the decade, but was also really good in longer competitive affairs. In the late 70's and 1980 he was really outstanding at the Portland style, which is a style heavily dependent on psychology and a style that required a great deal of stamina.

 

I would take Dutch's best two or three matches over Wiskowski's - maybe. But I don't think the over all body of his career is as impressive.