artDDP Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 Loss, I'd just like to thank you for your awesome moderating work. I like how you don't let new people stick around when they're too busy trolling or working a gimmick to actually discuss something. I agree. I don't post as often as I used to but I come here for the intelligent wrestling discussion and appreciate the different perspectives of the regular posters. I'd prefer not to have to sift through some clowns killing time auditioning their new message board gimmicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 From the 4/20/92 Observer. Re: WM VIII The paid attendance was probably the second highest ever in the United States and fourth highest ever in North America. Of course the U.S. record was the Hogan-Andre match (90,873) with the second and third highest being a crowds of 69,300 for a Hogan vs. Paul Orndorff 1986 match in Toronto and the 64,287 for Hogan-Warrior in Toronto, both of which were achieved with virtually no paper. The next biggest U.S. crowds officially would be 38,622 total (probably with very little paper) for a 1961 Pat O'Connor vs. Buddy Rogers match in Chicago and 36,295 (of which 35,771 was paid) for a Bruno Sammartino vs. Larry Zbyszko match in 1980 at Shea Stadium in New York. So, where the heck did 90,873 come from. I know later on he uses the Bresloff 78K number. Is that the official number for Mania III minus comps or something? When did he switch over to the 78K number? While I'm at it: The $29.95 price tag. This has to be a factor, because why else would Wrestlemania roughly the same number of buys as a Survivor Series and Royal Rumble shows with far less hype, history and heated key angles being climaxed, let alone the Hogan retirement angle which should have drawn a lot of late buys. The other WWF PPV shows are priced at $24.95. The Hogan-Savage match in 1989 which was the largest grossing wrestling show ever was also priced at $24.95. The WWF would counter because they claimed to do a test pricing of the Hogan-Earthquake Summer Slam from a few years back with three prices charged in various parts for the same show and found price to be of little consequence in number of buys. But there are so many PPV shows now, both wrestling and otherwise, that the reaction of consumers may be different today than it was two years ago if such a test marketing actually showed those results. What's that about Summerslam 90? I know that we've looked at it curiously in the last few years as potentially doing a bigger buy than Mania. Could this help explain it, whatever it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Boricua Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 That's interesting, I distinctly remember that here in Puerto Rico we paid $29.95 for Wrestlemania 7 the year before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 That "various parts" is pretty vague. I assume he means US, Canada, Puerto Rico/Virgin Islands were all priced differently. I don't think WWF could have gotten away with pricing differently regionally in the states, but I guess it's possible. Priced differently on different cable systems? Out of curiosity, what other countries did WWE have PPV on at this point in time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Yeah... the Mania III number is pretty funny there, especially with him making a note on every set of numbers whether it was a real number, if there was paper and what the paid was. It wasn't until later that we had "Zane's Information" and: "New shit has come to light." John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Jiz Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Yeah... the Mania III number is pretty funny there, especially with him making a note on every set of numbers whether it was a real number, if there was paper and what the paid was. It wasn't until later that we had "Zane's Information" and: "New shit has come to light." John I'm inclined to believe Meltzer's 78k figure based on comparative numbers from other big events in similar venues, but a 12,000 drop is really substantial and a 15,000 drop from WWE's numbers. I suppose it's possible that 78,000 paid and that another 10,000 were papered. Who knows. But Dave should know that he's the only source for that 78,000 number. Asked to justify that, and the response can only be "Because Dave said so." He should understand how horrible of an argument that is. I wish he'd scan the document from Zane Bresloff, who he himself can't reproduce it given that he died years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 In general I love going through the old Observers since there are things that didn't really mean much then, just throw away lines or what not, but that touch upon things we've talked about over the last few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 I'm inclined to believe Meltzer's 78k figure based on comparative numbers from other big events in similar venues, but a 12,000 drop is really substantial and a 15,000 drop from WWE's numbers. I suppose it's possible that 78,000 paid and that another 10,000 were papered. Who knows. But Dave should know that he's the only source for that 78,000 number. Asked to justify that, and the response can only be "Because Dave said so." He should understand how horrible of an argument that is. I wish he'd scan the document from Zane Bresloff, who he himself can't reproduce it given that he died years ago. I'm inclined to not believe the 78K number based on events in not similar buildings but that exact same building. Super Bowl XVI drew 81,270 fans. It wasn't a worked number. The 1994 World Cup drew 77,217 for a Brasil vs Sweden game. It wasn't work, nor were the other three games held in the Silverdome in that Cup (if they were worked, the US's opener would have topped the Brasil game). Here's a Lions season with attendance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Detroit_Lions_season Those aren't worked, unless you think the Lions liked showing they drew under 50K at home twice that year. The top that season was 75K. What's the difference between football and futbol games at the Silverdome and pro wrestling at the Silverdome? People sit on the Field for wrestling, while the players are on the Field in football and futbol. Since revising the number, Dave has never claimed there were 90K+ in the building but 12K+ of them were "papered". In fact, his reporting at the time was that the place Sold Out. If there wasn't paper, and if the place was sold out, 90K were in the building. There were at least 10K on the floor, while every photo of the place shows the stands to be packed. Anyway... it is funny that 5 years after the event, Dave still had the 93K number, and while talking about paper for other events, doesn't mention it for Mania III. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Here's an earlier thread, one where Bix, I and others walked through it a good deal: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/12930-true-story-of-wrestlemania-dvd The formating of a lot of the posts is screwy due to the upgrade making stuff all run together and a bit hard to read at times. I'll try to clean mine up when I get a chance. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Jiz Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Here's an earlier thread, one where Bix, I and others walked through it a good deal: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/12930-true-story-of-wrestlemania-dvd The formating of a lot of the posts is screwy due to the upgrade making stuff all run together and a bit hard to read at times. I'll try to clean mine up when I get a chance. John Thanks! I'm reading through this. My guess is, funnily enough, is that Zane Bresloff worked Dave, and Dave is trying to save face. lol!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Listening to the Observer Radio from earlier this week, knowing Dave has fallen asleep on the radio show makes me feel better about myself when falling asleep during the Wrestling Viewing Parties with Kris and Johnny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 There is one big difference though......Dave wasn't the host on those shows.....you were but don't worry about it greats like Mike Francesa has fallen asleep on their shows as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Dave is the money maker. I am just a shlub who introduces the next match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazer Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Blazer, did you respond to my statement or are you just quoting my statement? Sorry -- I just realized I messed up my response several weeks ago. Meant to say John Arrezi (sp?) was the guy that used to organize those fan trips from Phily to Memphis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 A few weeks ago, in the middle of talking about NJPW, Meltzer blurted out that R. Bruce Tharpe is awesome. I don't watch NJPW, what led to Meltzer saying this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Tharpe being awesome? Honestly the guy is one of my favorite things in New Japan. Very old schoolish, over the top heel manager in both look, antics and demeanor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Blazer, did you respond to my statement or are you just quoting my statement? Sorry -- I just realized I messed up my response several weeks ago. Meant to say John Arrezi (sp?) was the guy that used to organize those fan trips from Phily to Memphis. Joel Goodhart did the Philly to Memphis trips. Arezzi did the early NYC to ECW trips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Tharpe being awesome? Honestly the guy is one of my favorite things in New Japan. Very old schoolish, over the top heel manager in both look, antics and demeanor I had no idea he was involved in NJPW until I heard Meltzer saying this. After hearing that from Meltzer, and seeing you also confirm this, I am really curious now. I grew up watching Tharpe's IWF promotion. He was the promoter, TV host, and play by play man. The commercials to his program were usually his own attorney at law ads. At one point, he was involved in the main event storyline, which was a bloody tag team feud. In a memorable angle, he dabbled in brujeria (witchcraft, which is a big deal here culturally) to try to get an advantage in the feud. Happy to hear he's doing good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Tharpe being awesome? Honestly the guy is one of my favorite things in New Japan. Very old schoolish, over the top heel manager in both look, antics and demeanor I had no idea he was involved in NJPW until I heard Meltzer saying this. After hearing that from Meltzer, and seeing you also confirm this, I am really curious now. I grew up watching Tharpe's IWF promotion. He was the promoter, TV host, and play by play man. The commercials to his program were usually his own attorney at law ads. At one point, he was involved in the main event storyline, which was a bloody tag team feud. In a memorable angle, he dabbled in brujeria (witchcraft, which is a big deal here culturally) to try to get an advantage in the feud. Happy to hear he's doing good. He's great. A real ham and a student of all the great managers it seems: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazer Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Look at Harley. LOL. He's like "WTF?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Tharpe being awesome? Honestly the guy is one of my favorite things in New Japan. Very old schoolish, over the top heel manager in both look, antics and demeanor I had no idea he was involved in NJPW until I heard Meltzer saying this. After hearing that from Meltzer, and seeing you also confirm this, I am really curious now. I grew up watching Tharpe's IWF promotion. He was the promoter, TV host, and play by play man. The commercials to his program were usually his own attorney at law ads. At one point, he was involved in the main event storyline, which was a bloody tag team feud. In a memorable angle, he dabbled in brujeria (witchcraft, which is a big deal here culturally) to try to get an advantage in the feud. Happy to hear he's doing good. He's great. A real ham and a student of all the great managers it seems: Oh man, that's awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Todd Martin returns to review RAW!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Todd Martin returns to review RAW!!"Bryan said that he wouldn’t leave until he got his match with HHH at Mania. He then had a bunch of plants all wearing the exact same Daniel Bryan t-shirt come out to fill the ring and ringside area. They all chanted yes together. This was so goofy and inorganic. And the more the plants all chanted together in unison, the less you saw the people in the actual audience doing it. Even the most unobservant fans have to notice the irony in a supposed protest movement so obviously comprised of WWE selected participants wearing identical WWE merchandise. It had all the populist authenticity of a Michael Bay biopic about Woody Guthrie." "On the downside, I thought the most important angle of the show hit the wrong notes. WWE has a continuing issue with coopting fan movements in a way that undermines their original power and basic identity." You've got to be kidding me. That's a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 "On the downside, I thought the most important angle of the show hit the wrong notes. WWE has a continuing issue with coopting fan movements in a way that undermines their original power and basic identity." Does that boil down to "how dare they work me!"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 "On the downside, I thought the most important angle of the show hit the wrong notes. WWE has a continuing issue with coopting fan movements in a way that undermines their original power and basic identity." Does that boil down to "how dare they work me!"? I...think so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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