Dave Meltzer stuff

[sek69]

...or what if I told you those people were also enjoying wrestling and wanting the best for it, but their idea of what's best is different? The whole concept of "anything I don't like is dumb and people who like what I don't are also dumb" is one of the more toxic things in wrestling fandom right now.

[ragemaster]

If you care about wrestling or the wrestlers, the best thing to do is stop watching it.

 

With the info out on concussions, all the deaths in wrestling, wrestlers having poor quality of life as they hit 50 and above.

With memory issues and living in pain as they get older.

The next generation of wrestlers are going to get hit harder from those issue's, as they are taking more bumps.

 

The best thing is for wrestling be banded for all concerned.

 

Not sure how Dave view puts wrestling at risk, or is going to stop people from watching it.

When Chris Benoit didn't kill it, or Owen hart, or 100 wrestlers dying due to drugs.

Or hulk Hogan getting caught for lying about his steroid use.

 

Do you really think Dave Meltzer view on matches has any baring on your ability to enjoy wrestling

If all the above doesn't make you stop watching wrestling, or impact you viewing pleasure.

 

But you get angry because you disagree with his views and that stops you watching wrestling. lol

[rzombie1988]

 

 

Ugh. You "got to" deal with these people every day? Do ya really "got to", or do you choose to?

 

It's a hobby, folks. For the life of me, I'll never understand why some people take these things so seriously. It's a guy's opinion. I understand he's considered the most influential and all that. No question. But he's one guy. He digs what he digs. You are still free to enjoy what you enjoy or even *gasp* disagree with him on things.

 

I'm sure I'll always be the outlier on this, but it is what it is. I just can't wrap my head around people feeling all sensitive about his ratings.

I have to.

 

I want what is best for wrestling. I want it to succeed and I want everyone in the world to watch it. I want every show to sell out and I want everyone to be rich and healthy. I care about wrestling, because I'm going to be around in another 20 years discussing it. Wrestling is a part of me.

 

What if I told you wrestling sucks?

 

It does suck right now.

[rzombie1988]

...or what if I told you those people were also enjoying wrestling and wanting the best for it, but their idea of what's best is different? The whole concept of "anything I don't like is dumb and people who like what I don't are also dumb" is one of the more toxic things in wrestling fandom right now.

Promoting wrestling or any fighting sport on the promise of great matches and no storylines has never really drawn big mainstream interest. We know what does draw, and we saw that with Floyd/Conor, which did more than any wrestling show will in the next 10 years. Everyone knew that was going to suck too.

[Rah]

 

...or what if I told you those people were also enjoying wrestling and wanting the best for it, but their idea of what's best is different? The whole concept of "anything I don't like is dumb and people who like what I don't are also dumb" is one of the more toxic things in wrestling fandom right now.

Promoting wrestling or any fighting sport on the promise of great matches and no storylines has never really drawn big mainstream interest. We know what does draw, and we saw that with Floyd/Conor, which did more than any wrestling show will in the next 10 years. Everyone knew that was going to suck too.

 

 

 

Well...

 

Dr. Wagner & Psycho Clown, airing on a slight delay, got a 22.8 rating in Mexico. McGregor & Maywether got a 19.9.

 

[Mad Dog]

I don't understand this surprise at the matches Dave has liked this year either. The New Japan and PWG matches are what he likes. Go back to when RoH was hot in the 2000s and he loved that stuff and what he's praising now is an evolved version of the RoH style.

 

People take this shit way too seriously.

[BruiserBrody]

Dave irked me twice this weekend. First was the when he excitedly declared ____ kicked off the show with a "Flying Space Tiger Drop" or whatever which then made everyone else go highspot crazy. It struck me more as a circus act than the simulated violence I prefer.

 

Then it was the ******* fat man match where they hit each other with 280 finishers. Selling? Realism? It's better for everyone's health if the fans to accept one big move as a killer than guys kicking out of everything and lessening the impact of moves.

 

There were certainly incidents like this in the past, and it takes me out of the moment watching that as well. Several of my friends are "lapsed" and now watching wrestling with them is just listening to them mock the guys kicking out of everything and then getting pinned with a shitty finish. (See Cena, John)

[rzombie1988]

 

 

...or what if I told you those people were also enjoying wrestling and wanting the best for it, but their idea of what's best is different? The whole concept of "anything I don't like is dumb and people who like what I don't are also dumb" is one of the more toxic things in wrestling fandom right now.

Promoting wrestling or any fighting sport on the promise of great matches and no storylines has never really drawn big mainstream interest. We know what does draw, and we saw that with Floyd/Conor, which did more than any wrestling show will in the next 10 years. Everyone knew that was going to suck too.

 

 

 

Well...

 

Dr. Wagner & Psycho Clown, airing on a slight delay, got a 22.8 rating in Mexico. McGregor & Maywether got a 19.9.

 

 

Now how much did Wagner/Clown make compared to Floyd and Connor? We know Wagner/Parka were selling their mask match for $100,000 a few years ago and we know Floyd is making around $300 million off Floyd/Connor.

[goc]

Dave irked me twice this weekend. First was the when he excitedly declared ____ kicked off the show with a "Flying Space Tiger Drop" or whatever which then made everyone else go highspot crazy. It struck me more as a circus act than the simulated violence I prefer.

 

Then it was the ******* fat man match where they hit each other with 280 finishers. Selling? Realism? It's better for everyone's health if the fans to accept one big move as a killer than guys kicking out of everything and lessening the impact of moves.

 

There were certainly incidents like this in the past, and it takes me out of the moment watching that as well. Several of my friends are "lapsed" and now watching wrestling with them is just listening to them mock the guys kicking out of everything and then getting pinned with a shitty finish. (See Cena, John)

It's PWG I don't know how anyone can be aware of what they are at this point and go there expecting to see "simulated violence." I'd much rather watch a match that seems like an actual contest rather than a cooperative effort to get as many *s as possible which is why I stay the hell away from watching PWG.

[sek69]

 

 

 

...or what if I told you those people were also enjoying wrestling and wanting the best for it, but their idea of what's best is different? The whole concept of "anything I don't like is dumb and people who like what I don't are also dumb" is one of the more toxic things in wrestling fandom right now.

Promoting wrestling or any fighting sport on the promise of great matches and no storylines has never really drawn big mainstream interest. We know what does draw, and we saw that with Floyd/Conor, which did more than any wrestling show will in the next 10 years. Everyone knew that was going to suck too.

 

 

 

Well...

 

Dr. Wagner & Psycho Clown, airing on a slight delay, got a 22.8 rating in Mexico. McGregor & Maywether got a 19.9.

 

 

Now how much did Wagner/Clown make compared to Floyd and Connor? We know Wagner/Parka were selling their mask match for $100,000 a few years ago and we know Floyd is making around $300 million off Floyd/Connor.

 

 

 

Wagner made about $255k for losing his mask, which is apparently the largest payout anyone's ever received for a mask loss.

 

Also there's scale involved as TripleMania wasn't being offered on PPV for $99 either.

[Rah]

It's all relative.

 

Lucha Libre is clearly an attraction in Mexico, but it's a niche facet within a semi-niche sport. When Mayweather/McGregor are running an expensive PPV, to a worldwide audience, it's to little wonder that they drew so much more (Triplemania grossed a ~$500k gate). Yes, money-to-money, I agree that a wrestling show will most likely never draw those figures but, within equal parameters/fields, Wagner did pretty damn well for himself. I'd wager even better if it was Parka/Wagner instead of Psycho, too.

[Cox]

I think the bigger surprise out of all of this is that Dave apparently hasn't seen any of the other Dijak/Lee matches. Considering that they had a spotlight match for EVOLVE during Wrestlemania weekend just 5 months ago, that's at least a little surprising. Does Dave really watch any American wrestling outside of WWE, PWG, and maybe ROH big shows? Does he even watch GFW?

[Mad Dog]

I know he watches GFW because he talks about it with Bryan on shows from time to time. I would imagine he watches WWE, New Japan, UFC, PWG, RoH, GFW and some other assorted items. I'm guessing the best way to get Dave to watch your promotion is to send him free shit. It wouldn't shock me if he doesn't watch Evolve as they don't provide their content at a competitive rate.

[rzombie1988]

I think the bigger surprise out of all of this is that Dave apparently hasn't seen any of the other Dijak/Lee matches. Considering that they had a spotlight match for EVOLVE during Wrestlemania weekend just 5 months ago, that's at least a little surprising. Does Dave really watch any American wrestling outside of WWE, PWG, and maybe ROH big shows? Does he even watch GFW?

If Dave does watch non-mainstream stuff, he rarely ever talks about it and therefore, no one bothers to see it except the people who are told by Davebros that they don't know anything about wrestling.

 

There's been some great workers who retired before Dave even reviewed a single match of theirs.

[NintendoLogic]

Even when wrestling was at its peak of mainstream popularity, Mike Tyson made more in a single fight than Steve Austin made in a year. Why should we give a crap about mainstream interest if plenty of companies are doing good business and plenty of wrestlers are making a good living?

[goc]

I think the bigger surprise out of all of this is that Dave apparently hasn't seen any of the other Dijak/Lee matches. Considering that they had a spotlight match for EVOLVE during Wrestlemania weekend just 5 months ago, that's at least a little surprising. Does Dave really watch any American wrestling outside of WWE, PWG, and maybe ROH big shows? Does he even watch GFW?

I don't think anyone should really be surprised that Dave isn't watching EVOLVE or any other indies. He's not JUST covering wrestling he's also covering MMA and when you add that up with the amount of WWE & New Japan (and the occasional All Japan or NOAH show) RoH and CMLL that he watches that's a whole lot of time.

 

But the era of "get Dave to watch you by sending him free shit" is over too because it's not like he's gonna go watch something on youtube like CWF Mid-Atlantic or anything else that gets put up there.

[Cox]

I didn't do a great job explaining what I meant in my original post.

 

I guess I'm mostly surprised that Dave hasn't really covered Evolve much in the past few years, because they run a style that is very Dave-friendly, and Gabe and Dave have been friendly in the past, as Gabe used to openly leak ROH storyline direction in the WON. I realize that even for a half-man, half-wrestling/MMA robot like Dave, that there are only so many hours in the day, but that Evolve never really broke through in the Observer when I'm sure he would have enjoyed most of what they have presented in the past few years is fairly surprising to me. A lot of the guys who he raves about in PWG have matches that are at least as good in Evolve.

[Loss]

Dave's primary job isn't to watch everything. It's to watch what's either hot or catching on. He reports on business first and foremost. He has commented on Trevor Lee and Io Shirai and modern All Japan and other stuff in a way that makes me think he watches way more than he talks about. Still, there are only so many hours in a day, and how can we ask this guy to spend even more time on wrestling than he already does?

[...TG]

 

 

...or what if I told you those people were also enjoying wrestling and wanting the best for it, but their idea of what's best is different? The whole concept of "anything I don't like is dumb and people who like what I don't are also dumb" is one of the more toxic things in wrestling fandom right now.

Promoting wrestling or any fighting sport on the promise of great matches and no storylines has never really drawn big mainstream interest. We know what does draw, and we saw that with Floyd/Conor, which did more than any wrestling show will in the next 10 years. Everyone knew that was going to suck too.

 

 

 

Well...

 

Dr. Wagner & Psycho Clown, airing on a slight delay, got a 22.8 rating in Mexico. McGregor & Maywether got a 19.9.

 

 

Well...

 

Mayweather/McGregor was on two channels live in Mexico, combined they did something like a 36 rating. The 19.9 is the Televisa only rating.

[Boss Rock]

...or what if I told you those people were also enjoying wrestling and wanting the best for it, but their idea of what's best is different? The whole concept of "anything I don't like is dumb and people who like what I don't are also dumb" is one of the more toxic things in wrestling fandom right now.

 

This. Not to say there's anything wrong with disliking a particular style, but the whole "those fans" mentality is something I've always hated.

[rzombie1988]

 

...or what if I told you those people were also enjoying wrestling and wanting the best for it, but their idea of what's best is different? The whole concept of "anything I don't like is dumb and people who like what I don't are also dumb" is one of the more toxic things in wrestling fandom right now.

 

This. Not to say there's anything wrong with disliking a particular style, but the whole "those fans" mentality is something I've always hated.

 

I think a lot of the fans who are into the current style are completely new to wrestling, so of course its amazing stuff. ECW was the most amazing thing to me when I had never seen anything but WWF and WCW. I thought the Eliminators were the best tag team ever. Obviously, 20 years later, none of that holds up and it's pretty easy to see why - ECW was mostly smoke and mirrors to cover up the holes, which is a lot of what the indy scene and people like Kenny Omega are doing now. If you told Kenny or some of the other highly pimped indy guys right now to work a match without going off the top or doing anything dangerous or actually sticking to face/heel dynamics, they wouldn't know what to do.

 

I think we're seeing the same thing now. The average person discussing wrestling online is now is in his mid-20's and has only been watching a few years or has only seen WWE. The only problem is that these people are shouting down the people who've already seen through the smoke and mirrors and treating them like idiots who don't know anything. Dave's adding fuel to the fire pretending that 1990's All Japan Women, 1990's WCW Cruiserweights, 2000's ROH and Dragon Gate with their more athletic styles and more dangerous moves never happened, when he's lived through it too. There's nothing new here.

[Boss Rock]

I think Dave is just trying to always stay "ahead of the curve". i.e. evolutions to styles were almost always met with derision and Dave wants to make sure he's part of the "just wait, this stuff will be celebrated years later" crowd. I think there's something to that in change doesn't always mean "killing the business" and people who like PWG stuff shouldn't be told they're stupid or don't "get" wrestling. But I also think not all change is necessarily for the better. Sometimes angles or in ring work gets too meta as opposed to working face/heel dynamics or doing heated, personal feuds. Not to say that's always a bad thing, but I'd hate that to become the dominant force behind all matches.

 

I also think it's possible to find enjoyment out of everything and don't think it should always be an "us vs. them" scenario. I like Kenny Omega and think Jerry Lawler is one of the greatest wrestlers to have ever lived. I find the Young Bucks entertaining while the Holy Demon Army is my favorite tag team of all time.

[rzombie1988]

I think Dave is just trying to always stay "ahead of the curve". i.e. evolutions to styles were almost always met with derision and Dave wants to make sure he's part of the "just wait, this stuff will be celebrated years later" crowd. I think there's something to that in change doesn't always mean "killing the business" and people who like PWG stuff shouldn't be told they're stupid or don't "get" wrestling. But I also think not all change is necessarily for the better. Sometimes angles or in ring work gets too meta as opposed to working face/heel dynamics or doing heated, personal feuds. Not to say that's always a bad thing, but I'd hate that to become the dominant force behind all matches.

 

I also think it's possible to find enjoyment out of everything and don't think it should always be an "us vs. them" scenario. I like Kenny Omega and think Jerry Lawler is one of the greatest wrestlers to have ever lived. I find the Young Bucks entertaining while the Holy Demon Army is my favorite tag team of all time.

 

I think a lot of people think Omega/PWG is ahead of the curve. To me it's going backwards, because it's been the standard in Japan and the various indy Japanese wannabe's. Going ahead of the curve would likely be working closer to an MMA/K-1 or older territory style of wrestling like NXT does, because it's been so long since anyone has done that.

 

I think the future of what the IWC likes sadly is going to be more of the Omega/PWG stuff. Less character work, more comedy, more blur between faces/heels, less keeping of kayfabe, more "anyone can be a wrestler" stuff, more of the liberalization of wrestling, more dangerous moves and more athleticism over everything else.

[Mrzfn]

I also think it's possible to find enjoyment out of everything and don't think it should always be an "us vs. them" scenario. I like Kenny Omega and think Jerry Lawler is one of the greatest wrestlers to have ever lived. I find the Young Bucks entertaining while the Holy Demon Army is my favorite tag team of all time.

 

This. I've been watching for 15 years and can enjoy anything from modern PWG to random Buddy Rose matches, as long as I'm having fun I don't mind where it's from.

[El-P]

Going ahead of the curve would likely be working closer to an MMA/K-1 or older territory style of wrestling like NXT does,

 

Working closer to MMA was done before MMA even existed. It was called "shoot-style". It'd been dead for almost 20 years because the real thing came up.

 

NXT is mostly based on Evil Indy Darlings^tm showing up one after the other to finally get their WWE stints (and good for them). And the booking is cosplaying an old territory, of sorts, which can be fun be certainly is not "ahead of the curve" either.

 

Damn those liberal millennial pro-wresting fans...

 

(and yes, in the last two years, I've seen two of the best matches I've ever watched in my almost 30 years of pro-wrestling : one was Naito vs Omega in the G1 Climax last year, the other one was THE Tully vs Magnum I Quit cage match)