Dave Meltzer stuff

[El-P]

Tommy Dreamer did an interview where he even referenced how the 2005 show was supposed to be the end, but Vince McMahon brought it back and ruined it. He did one of his crying promos asking Dixie Carter to give them one last night, and Carter agreed, saying that the former ECW guys will have full control of the PPV and he promised people would see ECW as it should be and not what Vince McMahon turned it into.

What a mark Tommy is...

[kjh]

I think the crux of the argument boils down to how big a difference does one being real and one being fake makes to how you should promote the sport/entertainment brand. Rather than sweep that inconvenient truth under the rug and treat them as being exactly the same, it would be nice if Dave and Bryan thought out of the box and came up with a more nuanced argument.

[MikeCampbell]

1) There really is no denying Brock's appeal is partly because of his WWE background. His first few fights were hits solely because of that because people either wanted to see their pro wrestler beat UFC guys or vice versa. By now he's become accepted by the main fan base.

I don't think he's been entirely accepted yet. I've mentioned before that I work with an aspiring MMA fighter, and he's one of several guys I know who despise Brock. Every time Brock has a fight, they swear up and down that Brock will get beat and quit. Then when Brock wins they pull lame ass excuses out of their asses. "Brock will lose because he can't take a punch and Carwin will KO him!" "Brock only won because of the lousy reffing, and he took Carwin down, so he can't stand and bang with the big boys!"

 

Of course, maybe the group I know are a huge minority.

[kjh]

The other thing worth remembering about Brock is that there's never going to be anyone like him again who successfully crosses over from pro wrestling to MMA, other than perhaps Bobby Lashley, but he remains untested and doesn't have Brock's charisma and presence. All the elite amateur wrestlers today are going straight into MMA, they're not going into pro wrestling anymore. Brock's an anomaly - the unique circumstances that allowed him to become UFC's biggest mainstream draw aren't going to be repeating themselves in the long term future.

[sek69]

I guess my main point is when Dave and Co say things like "MMA is doing pro wrestling better than WWE", when what really is happening is that MMA is doing boxing better than boxing does in terms of building both guys in a fight in order to maximize their earning potential no matter who wins. Case in point is that Dave (and a lot of people he talks to) think the Mayweather/De La Hoya 24/7 shows were the best "pro wrestling" shows ever done because of how they hyped people to want to see the fight. The truth is boxing used to do that shit all the time, look at how Ali more or less cribbed from the pro wrestling heel textbook to become the star he did. He and Frazier had an equally brutal verbal battle as they did in the ring.

 

I don't want to diminish what UFC/MMA has done in such a relatively short period of time, they've made a sport like boxing (which has been around for over 100 years and at one time was the biggest sport in the US) almost completely redundant.

 

To me, the only damaging effect MMA will have on pro wrestling would be that amateur wrestling guys will now go to MMA instead of to pro wrestling. Considering how little that most MMA fighters get paid, I have to wonder if that's because there's no other choice in pro wrestling but WWE. You'd have to think if there were still territories, a solid college wrestler would probably stand to make more money working for say a Bill Watts in Mid South, or even for Verne in the AWA, than he would in MMA.

[Guest Slickster]

I'm not sure you can compare Ali's promos to a 24/7-type program elevating both fighters and showing both in the best possible light. It's not as if anyone gave a fuck about Ron Lyle or Jimmy Young or pushed them as serious credible opponents for Ali, just as nobody saw Pinklon Thomas or Tyrell Biggs as the next world heavyweight champion after Tyson.

 

I think the reality-based programming of 24/7 and of UFC hype helped to show each fighter's personality and put them over as a credible winner of the fight, not just as a tomato can or the next stop on the 'bum of the month club.'

 

To translate that to pro wrestling, I think WWE could use 'unscripted' segments (a la TNA's Reaction program) to show how their Superstars act in real life. What do they enjoy when they're not wrestling? John Cena seems to be the only three-dimensional character on WWE television right now and having more fleshed-out characters like him couldn't be a bad thing.

[Loss]

John Cena is being MURDERED by having to deliver terrible lines. Not as hot as he was a few years ago for sure.

 

And this isn't a swipe at Cena, but as long as he's their top star, it would be a bad idea, I think, to start doing All Access-type shows hyping PPVs. The reason the Cena backlash exists is because a segment of the audience thinks he's a phony.

 

Cena is a modern Hogan -- a guy who if he's talking, he's working, even if he's not on WWE TV. And more power to him, he has a fanbase and is making millions every year. But I think doing that type of build would expose a guy like Cena without some major thought put into the production of it.

 

It also wouldn't be a good color on Undertaker or HHH.

 

I do think Punk and Jericho would do very well with the sit-down interviews, but they would have to make some adjustments to their characters to pull it off.

 

Not sure how Rey sitting there in a mask would translate either.

[KrisZ]

Comparing boxing to MMA is totally justified because both are shoot sports although business models are different because the networks control boxing as there isn't organizations like UFC & Strikeforce but single promoters like Top Rank, Main Events, Don King etc etc

 

If I'm Dana White, I would be totally wary of all this MMA = pro wrestling talk because the more you get guys like Meltzer saying that in the MMA media world then the mainstream media that employs guys like Meltzer will start thinking okay maybe this is too much like pro wrestling which is considered a joke by the mainstream media.

 

And another thing Japanese MMA promotions never distanced themselves enough away from pro wrestling among their other problems and we've seen how far they have fallen in popularity over the years where it's on last legs now, that could happen over here very easily if they don't watch out.

[jdw]

Rock always came across as "acting". Over-the-top character. The fans liked him anyway: they didn't care whether he was phony or not because they enjoyed the character/Rock.

 

Austin game across as a little more "natural". Rock was something of a natural born actor once he "found" the Rock character, but it was still obvious acting. With Austin, the acting once the Stone Cold character hit its stride just played more naturally to the audience as "That's the way Austin is", whether that was reality or not.

 

Cena is far closer to Rock than to Paul Bearer on the "phony" scale that folks see as a total act. Neither Rock nor Cena is Austin, and obviously Rock just had more connection with the fans.

 

But I wouldn't say Cena has the heat with some fans that he does because of phoniness. The entire promotion has been phony since forever. Fans just get annoyed by some guys, and sometimes it's just some of the fans being annoyed.

 

John

[KrisZ]

Cena makes the promotion money period

 

He does his job well just because some guys in their 20's don't like him, they are at the shows to boo him.

[Loss]

Right, and I won't take that way from him. I agree with that, and have argued with people who thought he was a turn-off many times in the past.

 

I just think Cena's character wouldn't fit well in a sit-down interview type show.

 

ETA: I'm curious if Cena is still moving merchandise in 2010 like he was from 2005-2008. Business feels like it's down right now. Maybe we're nearing the time when it's right to do the heel turn, which will be awesome when it happens.

[KrisZ]

WWE shouldn't do an All-Access show because wrestling is about gimmicks and characters. What they should do is do a Tuesday Night Titans type of show to cater to gimmicks and get the guys over that way.

[KrisZ]

Right, and I won't take that way from him. I agree with that, and have argued with people who thought he was a turn-off many times in the past.

 

I just think Cena's character wouldn't fit well in a sit-down interview type show.

 

ETA: I'm curious if Cena is still moving merchandise in 2010 like he was from 2005-2008. Business feels like it's down right now. Maybe we're nearing the time when it's right to do the heel turn, which will be awesome when it happens.

Meltz said in today's WON that Cena is one of the leading candidates to be the leader of Nexus so you could be right.

[sek69]

As much as Cena would probably benefit from a heel turn in terms of freshening his character, I don't see how making him the leader of the group that has spent its existence so far kicking his ass would make much sense.

[KrisZ]

That would make him an even bigger mastermind that he sacrificed himself to get these guys in the position they needed to be in.

[rovert]

ETA: I'm curious if Cena is still moving merchandise in 2010 like he was from 2005-2008. Business feels like it's down right now. Maybe we're nearing the time when it's right to do the heel turn, which will be awesome when it happens.

His shirts can be seen from a 10 mile radius so I guess not.

[Dylan Waco]

I've said this a few places but the moment I saw that first Nexus attack on Cena I thought we were seeing the seed planted for an eventual heel turn. I still think it is months off, but I suspect the "no one would help me and everyone expected me to do it alone" talking point is going to be the basis for his eventual heel run.

[kjh]

I think the John Cena fan backlash had a lot to do with certain opponents being more concerned with popping the crowd and making themselves (Angle, Trips), than making their opponent. Against heels who wanted to be booed, not cheered, like JBL and Edge, the backlash wasn't as noticeable.

 

Loss and KrisZ are right about why WWE shouldn't do an All-Access type show. Just because people don't want their intelligence insulted while watching wrestling, doesn't mean that they want a reality based product. The appeal of wrestling has always been the over the top, larger than life characters involved.

[rzombie1988]

Alot of people just don't like John Cena. Some of the heels didn't help that, but there is still a big backlash against him. I've been to WWE live shows all across the country and Cena always gets the loudest boos and cheers. Especially at shows like Wrestlemania, chants of "Cena Sucks" start before people even get into the building.

[rovert]

So who is the "former major wrestling star" on the front page? My money is on Konnan, with an outside bet on Missy Hyatt.

[shoe]

I guess Dave is still jaded when it comes to Backlund. On the recent audio that Brian and him did was one of the questions was would Muraco made a good transitional champion instead of Sheik. This leads to discussing of the great matches between Muraco and Backlund where Dave implies the bouts were great mostly because of Muraco. He'll cling to his talking point of Bob being carried by other workers, or he had a lot of help on his undercard to draw.

[jdw]

On the "undercard" notion, which is something Superstar Graham love as well, my thought would be to compare the undercards of Graham with Bob's. They're not disimilar, and on average Graham's are stronger.

 

On the work thing, it's just something that Dave will never change. Pointless to argue with him at this time.

 

John

[jdw]

Other Dave notes, from the Kiniski bio:

 

Kiniski was completely different than any NWA champion before him. He was the biggest, and a heel, as compared to Thesz, Watson and O’Connor who were babyfaces who would play subtle heel when needed.

Thesz was a heel as champ in the majority of matches that exist on him from Chicago, which was the national TV mecca of the country. If he was in with a heel like Buddy or Hans, he was a heel. Against faces, he was that face. I suspect if we had footage of the famous matches with Lou and Leo in San Fran, we'd see Leo as the local babyface and Lou as the heel champ. In the match with Gagne, there is *nothing* "subtle" about Lou's heeling. It's pure NWA Heel Champion stuff, while Verne played ultimate babyface. I tend to think anyone who watches it would come away with the understanding that NWA Heel Champion style work goes right back to the very start: Lou.

 

John

[KrisZ]

Who do you think had a better undercard to work under

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - September 26, 1977 (22,102; 3,000 in Felt Forum)

Televised on the MSG Network - included Vince McMahon on commentary:

Cowboy Lang & the Haiti Kid defeated Little John & Little Tokyo in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-0; fall #1: Lang & Haiti won at 7:31; fall #2: Lang & Haiti won at 9:11

Prof. Toru Tanaka pinned Johnny Rivera at 10:09 with a chop to the neck after Rivera missed a dropkick

Baron Mikel Scicluna fought Jack Evans to a double count-out at 7:29 when both men began fighting on the ring apron

Mr. Fuji pinned Lenny Hurst at 6:19 with a clothesline

Bob Backlund pinned Larry Sharpe at 9:04 with the atomic drop; prior to the bout, Vince McMahon conducted an interview with Backlund on the ring apron about his undefeated streak

Dusty Rhodes defeated WWWF World Champion Superstar Billy Graham via count-out at 15:55 after Graham was backdropped over the top to the floor; prior to the bout, Graham was escorted to the ring by the Grand Wizard; after the match, Rhodes celebrated with the title belt and put it around his waist until it was taken away by the referee; after the decision was announced, the crowd chanted "Bullshit" until Rhodes grabbed the mic and said "Superstar, I came a long way to whip your ass. Now come out here, baby!" (American Dream: The Dusty Rhodes Story)

Peter Maivia defeated George Steele via count-out at 13:19 when Steele's legs became entangled in the ring ropes; after the bout, Maivia cleared Steele from the ring with Steele's own foreign object

Chief Jay Strongbow, Tony Garea, & Larry Zbyzsko defeated Ken Patera, Stan Stasiak, & Capt. Lou Albano via referee's decision in a Best 3 out of 5 falls match; fall #1: Strongbow pinned Stasiak with a double chop to the throat at 10:40; fall #2: Patera pinned Zbyzsko with a double axe handle off the top at 5:21; the match then went to an 11 pm curfew with the referee awarding the contest to Strongbow, Garea, & Zbyzsko

 

WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 24, 1977

Televised on the MSG Network - featured Vince McMahon on commentary:

Kitty Adams & Leilani Kai defeated Wenona Little Heart & Vivian St. John

Tony Garea defeated Baron Mikel Scicluna

Larry Zbyzsko defeated Johnny Rodz

Butcher Vachon defeated Lenny Hurst

Larry Sharpe defeated Johnny Rivera

Ivan Putski defeated Stan Stasiak via count-out

Mil Mascaras defeated Jack Evans

Prof. Toru Tanaka & Mr. Fuji defeated Peter Maivia & Chief Jay Strongbow

WWWF World Champion Superstar Billy Graham pinned Dusty Rhodes in a Texas Death Match at 9:12 by placing one hand on the challenger’s chest after both men collided; prior to the bout, Vince McMahon interviewed Rhodes inside the ring; the Grand Wizard escorted the champion to the ring before the match; after the contest, Rhodes hit three Bionic Elbows on Graham and threw him to the floor, not realizing the match had ended (20 Years Too Soon: The Superstar Billy Graham Story)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 16, 1981 (20,808)

Televised on the MSG Network:

Killer Khan defeated Dominic DeNucci at 7:46

The Great Yatsu defeated Johnny Rodz at 11:12

Hulk Hogan defeated Rick McGraw at 1:31

The Hangman defeated Frank Savage at 10:58

SD Jones defeated Baron Mikel Scicluna at 8:44

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales defeated Sgt. Slaughter via disqualification at 22:40 after the challenger used a pair of brass knuckles; after the bout, Morales used the brass knuckles to pound on Slaughter all the way back to the dressing room

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund fought Stan Hansen to a draw when the referee deemed both men too bloody to continue; after the bout, the two continued to brawl back to the dressing room where they were eventually seperated by security guards

Pat Patterson, WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tony Garea defeated the Moondogs & Capt. Lou Albano in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-1

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 16, 1981 (21,000+)

Televised on the MSG Network - featured Vince McMahon on commentary:

The Great Yatsu pinned Baron Mikel Scicluna at 8:39

SD Jones pinned Johnny Rodz at 9:41 with a diving headbutt after Rodz missed a move off the middle turnbuckle

Moondog Rex pinned Rick McGraw at 6:38 with a shoulderbreaker after avoiding a charge in the corner

Dominic DeNucci pinned Larry Sharpe at 6:53

Stan Hansen defeated WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) via count-out at 12:02 after the champion suffered the loaded lariat on the ring apron, knocking him to the floor; prior to Hansen's entrance, Pat Patterson entered the ring, issued a public challenge to Sgt. Slaughter over the house microphone, and shook the hands of Howard Finkel, Arnold Skaaland, and the champion; prior to the match, Freddie Blassie escorted Hansen to the ring; after the bout, Backlund cleared the ring of his opponent

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales pinned Moondog King at 4:48 with a roll up as King charged at him; prior to the bout, Capt. Lou Albano escorted King ringside

Andre the Giant defeated Sgt. Slaughter via disqualification at 7:58 when Slaughter grabbed the referee and used him as a shield when Andre charged at him; prior to the bout, the Grand Wizard escorted Slaughter ringside

Rick Martel pinned the Hangman at 15:37 with a flip and roll up

Tony Garea pinned Bulldog Brower at 10:56 with a roll up

Tony Atlas pinned Hulk Hogan at 7:08 after crotching Hogan on the top rope; Hogan had his foot on the middle rope during the cover but the referee failed to notice; after the bout, Hogan attacked referee Dick Kroll, bodyslammed him, and gave him a legdrop

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 6, 1981 (25,302 including 3,334 in Felt Forum)

Televised on the MSG Network - featured Vince McMahon on commentary:

The Great Yatsu pinned Terry Gunn at 5:11 with a belly to belly suplex

Killer Khan (w/ Freddie Blassie) pinned Dominic DeNucci at 5:19 with a kneedrop

WWF IC Champion Pedro Morales pinned Moondog Rex (w/ Capt. Lou Albano) at 9:33 with a small package

Pat Patterson fought Sgt. Slaughter (w/ the Grand Wizard) to a double disqualification at 13:36 after both men abused referee Jack Lotz

Mil Mascaras pinned Moondog King (w/ Capt. Lou Albano) at 8:14 with a crossbody off the top

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Stan Hansen in a steel cage match by escaping through the door at 8:59 (Bloodbath: Wrestling's Most Incredible Steel Cage Matches)

SD Jones pinned Baron Mikel Scicluna at 8:53 with a sunset flip

Women's Champion the Fabulous Moolah & Lelani Kai defeated Jill Fontaine & Suzette Ferriera at 7:08 when Moolah pinned Fontaine following a flapjack

Tony Garea & Rick Martel defeated Johnny Rodz & Larry Sharpe at 7:38 when Martel pinned Rodz with a double leg cradle

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Dave explains why MMA = pro wrestling:

 

Bischoff responded to Paul Heyman’s comments that the pro wrestling business needs to get its shit together after spending a week in Las Vegas and seeing how UFC promoted its last show. “As far as his comment goes, I don’t have a clue what context the comment was made in. People have a tendency to want to compare MMA to professional wrestling, and for the life of me, I just can’t figure out why. It’s not even apples and oranges as I’ve said before, it’s apples and bricks. One is real sport and the other is scripted entertainment, and beyond that, if anyone can point out any similarities between the two and why wrestling should modify its business model based on what is happening in MMA, I would be very interested in hearing it, because last time I checked, they are two entirely different products.” It’s mind boggling in 2010 someone running a wrestling company could be so out of touch with his audience. The business model of UFC is largely modeled after the successful business model of WWE, from revenue streams to the actual choice of international markets to expand to. The UFC model of international expansion is to go to markets where WWE has a number of years of television and successful live events, with the idea that people who have been WWE fans for several years are the prime people who will switch to UFC. Why? Perhaps because the new UFC audience created by television in 2005 came directly from Raw. UFC in its rawest form is about building up matches based on both real and exaggerated conflicts between larger than life personalities, as well as the ultimate goal in chasing championship matches. In its rawest form, pro wrestling is the ability to take two larger than life personalities, that people have strong feelings for, create an understandable reason why they would have an issue to fight for, then promote the fight, with the huge advantage that you can script the fight for maximum enjoyment and also script the winner for natural advancement to the next fight. What was the single biggest lesson this year that came out of WrestleMania? The fact one is sport and one is entertainment is the major difference, but at the end of the day, both draw and survive based on their ability to provide an entertaining product to the audience and sell the personalities and fights to the audience. But considering pro wrestling is most effective when it’s able to cause its spectators to suspend disbelief, while the moves are different, the goal of pro wrestling is create the illusion of and MMA fight and the goal of MMA promotion is to use hype tactics learned from a century of boxing and wrestling and use it to create the illusion of heated conflict before the fight. The irony is that TNA was created and has been desperate in trying to find the key to unlock the lapsed pro wrestling audience of the 90s, and has failed completely in that regard, and the old WCW audience is tons more likely to be a UFC fan than a TNA fan, and there are reasons why, and real vs. fake matches is hardly the be all and end all, given those people were loyal fans of fake matches a decade ago. Pro wrestling may be the only major athletic entertainment endeavor where there are more fans that no longer watch the product than do, and more fans who will regularly buy PPVs of another product than of the product. While aspects of change are necessary in all entertainment, at the end of the day, baseball, football, basketball, etc. are more entertaining to attend today then 25 years ago, but at their core, the product is the same. The wrestling product is not the same, and the emotion of that old wrestling product is captured more in MMA than wrestling, and it’s because wrestling changed to a product the majority of its fan base isn’t interested in, and somebody else picked up the slack. And a guy who was put in charge of the brain trust of a company is so out of touch he doesn’t recognize any of this.