Timbo Slice

I understand not wanting to ding Satomura because of the landscape she worked most of her prime in, but at the same time, if you're gonna tell me that Satomura's best against Hojo was better than the two DreamSlam matches, the '93 Grand Prix and TLTB matches she had, the St. Final match that, while not much of a match was one hell of an angle, and, if you want to go a bit further, better than the Queendom tag, then we're gonna be apples and oranges. Simple as that. The 16 month stretch Hokuto had from Dream Rush to the Queendom tag is one of the greatest stretches in wrestling history, let alone female wrestling history. She's a fine performer, but her best doesn't touch Hokuto's. Or Aja's '94. Or Kandori's 93. Or even Kyoko's '93. Or Toyota's 13 month stretch from Dream Rush to the St. Final tag, maybe even out to tag title match with LCO a few months later. That's what Meiko is going up against when it comes to peaks. She doesn't have that peak, and while that's not entirely her fault, it's still a part of the equation.

See, that's totally subjective and goes back to my point about expectations for how guys work. People see how Hero works and wonder how a guy looking like that works like he did, while as with the guys you mentioned, the look amplified what they did because it was more inherent to their character. I don't get the double standard here. You can't have one and say it doesn't work the other way. Hero has done plenty to make himself standout with that physique. It doesn't matter that he looks that way. The guys you mentioned had personalities that made you fear them. It wasn't their look that did it. You want an example of Hero looking like a badass with that physique? Check out him taking a shlub like Reed Bentley and carrying him to a damn good match because of how he carried himself. It was one of his first matches post-WWE and it looked like he had something to prove, and he did it in spades

Meiko in 2000's joshi being better than Hokuto in 1993 is rubbish.

To Bill's point, they had him rile up a dead crowd basically by himself before his match with Thatcher at the WWNLive Supershow and it absolutely made that show. He made me feel like it was worth the money I paid to see that show BY HIMSELF. That was also the night where he had his awesome "I Work Hard For This Body" shirt, so that should tell you how much he cares about what you think of his body. This is more stemming that people are pissed he didn't work harder to get into "WWE" shape so that he could be working NXT, I'm pretty sure. There's an air of disappointment there. Which is understandable. There's also the idea that a guy should work like he looks, and then people get surprised and think it's awesome when Owens is as agile as he is, or Cage, or Vader, etc. So I'm not buying this idea that because he looks a certain way he should work a certain way. He works how he works, and he's a compelling worker, which is the point of the project. Now I feel like putting Hero #1 just to spite you all.

Thatcher does everything that Zack Sabre does way better. Flashy doesn't always mean better.

Bottom of my list, but she could be pushed out.

Was just about to post this. It's gonna be Rose more than likely.

I get he's supposedly on a hot streak right now, but he had all those years in NOAH and didn't really look good at all. He still doesn't. Not even close on my ballot.

I'm glad people nominated these guys for all the previous mentions. I'm not sure if they'd make my list, but them being so enjoyable is a huge feather in their cap that isn't in a lot of others.

Fingerpoke of Doom. Katie Vick. The Gobbledygooker.

I'm a sucker for the 30-minute draw with Taue from 04. I want to say 8/1/04.

Good ol' Inoki booking: Gotta get Hash paired up with Ogawa!!! So he was pushed down while Tenryu got groomed for the title win over Mutoh a few months later. Just hilariously inept.

Awesome stuff, as per usual from you guys. Rave was a great guest, hour flew right by. He was the Young Bucks before the Young Bucks were.

Footage of Will after the show ended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9lg6HqJeY0

Thought only some spots in the tag matches and the Styles/Shibata match did anything for me. Naito actually going full Ingobernale with his entrance gear is inspired, but everything else wasn't. Not off to a great start here.

Los Gringos Locos (Art Barr and Eddie Guerroer) via the 90's threads. Kings of Wrestling (Chris Hero and Claudio Castignoli): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l2FkqMmlFA vs. Colt Cabana and El Generico https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rULzl70_-8o vs. The Briscoes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXifIH1iILE vs. The Young Bucks

Basically the best thing Ole was ever a part of, and the RnR feud was aces. I'm such a huge fan of their act that I want to include them, but we shall see.

I prefer Sato from a work perspective, but Yuki really was fun to watch. Tough to see her on my list, but now I feel like I need to nominate the Beauty Pair because they were a really good team in the 70's and they have a lot more than a lot of the other teams nominated.

I think around '81, she turns into a true world-class worker. She's the first worker to truly separate herself from the rest of the pack in a lot of ways, but it doesn't become more apparent for a little while longer. It's neat watching her do stuff as a youngster, though. There's a good match with her and Jackie Sato in 1980 that was the first standout for her in my eyes.

Um...http://www.wwe.com/wwenetwork.

He was fine, but he won't be close on a list like this. The Kawada match is probably the greatest single feather in the cap of ol' Dangerous K, and I did like his chases in UWF-i, but there just wasn't enough there.

Brock's best matches (Eddy, Reigns, the last few Cena matches, with Extreme Rules a GOAT contender for WWE) are better than Ogawa's best (Kawada, Fujiwara) and Ogawa doesn't get a sliding scale just because he had decent matches with guys that weren't good at all. I totally respect that he got watchable matches out of them, but they weren't better than say, Brock vs. Rock at SummerSlam. Hell, the Hogan SmackDown! match is as entertaining an extended squash as Brock had. The penalties for guys like Angle and Triple H that Brock gets aren't squarely on Brock, especially considering he wasn't "in control" of those matches because he was expected to follow those guys, and on the other hand, Ogawa's not going to get penalized for the Inoki bullshit booking he had for basically his entire peak. So that's a wash to me. The WM XIX match with Angle was a good match, just a dicked up finish. I hate the ironman match, too. The Taker Hell in a Cell match is a better spectacle than a lot of people give it credit for. I know you're saying I'm underselling Ogawa, but you're underselling Brock and harping on the stuff he's done bad just like I've done with Ogawa. The Japan stuff was shit because New Japan was booked like shit and Brock didn't give two shits. That's being thrown into the equation here with Brock for me, but the stuff that I've enjoyed of his outweighs a lot of that. For Ogawa, the best I can say is that I was pleasantly surprised when he was in a good match for me. As far as what Brock does better than Ogawa, I'd objectively say that he's better at move execution, better at making other guys look good, he's a better bumper/seller than Ogawa (the way he bumps and sells for Big Show's offense in his matches is some of the best bumping I've ever seen from a guy his size, so as far as making shitty guys look good, that's two things in one), and most importantly, he's the only guy wrestling today that regardless of who he's facing, I have to watch him wrestle. That aura totally adds to his presence in the ring and makes his matches seem huge. It's something that's totally innate and happens with very few wrestlers that are even a part of this. Ogawa's not going to make me do that, even when people were talking up his big singles matches in HUSTLE, and I enjoy Ogawa matches when he's matched up with someone I enjoy. If the subjectivity is too much, then this is an apples and oranges discussion more than anything else.

I've never seen a match where Ogawa was clearly the best worker in the match, whereas I've seen a lot of Brock matches where he was the best worker in the match. There's a difference between being in great matches with great workers and being a great worker yourself. He was fine in the matches that were mentioned, but I never thought to myself that Ogawa was some great worker from what I saw. Saying he's better than Brock, who actually has a legitimate case for this list, just doesn't sit well with me.

ROH isn't screwing up Dalton Castle in the least, but I don't know if WWE could actually do something with him on the big stage.

People saying he's better than Brock in the Brock thread makes me laugh. He was a surprising wrestler because he he sucked for so long that when he did have a good performance, it was literally jaw-dropping because of it, but yeah...none chance.