khawk20

Martel is a personal favourite and aside from his AWA work, he has a significant body of work in the WWF and Montreal, among other places. As the AWA Champion, he was unique in that he was the first face champion that held the title for any length of time aside from Verne...heck, probably ever. There's an old article on Kayfabe Memories that talks about how huge his feud with Dino Bravo in 1982/83 was in Quebec, considering they were both faces when it happened. IMO, that feud was partially responsible for Verne deciding to give Martel a crack as AWA Champion (along with heavy lobbying from Nick Bockwinkel and the thought of losing his services to McMahon in the wake of the Hogan defection). How he was programmed was sometimes a burden to how he was looked at as Champion, but could also be considered a testament to how good a worker he was in the sense that he was given a widely divergent list of programs and high-profile one-offs in St. Paul. Being constantly thought of and talked about as the third wheel in the Champions gallery that was Hogan, Flair, and Martel I think hurt how people saw his title reign at the time. In hindsight, he was a good choice as champion and Verne used his verstility to make unlikely challengers seem like credible threats to the belt. A partial list of his challengers would include Robinson, Rheingans, Backlund, Tsuruta (all on centerpiece St. Paul cards), Bockwinkel, King Tonga, Jim Garvin (Garvin and Bock all over, Tonga in Montreal and New Jersey...Bock and Garvin also got Jersey challenges for PWUSA), Kamala, Zbyszko, Gordy, Hayes (long program), ZUrkov (long Winnipeg program), Buddy Roberts, Kendo Nagasaki, Mr. Saito, and Stan Hansen. I'm sure there were more. That's a helluva list of different wrestlers and styles that Martel had. His pre-championship AWA work was relatively typical of face AWA guys, but it sort of served as a proving ground that Martel could have entertaining matches against a wide variety of wrestlers, in both singles and tag action. For those that ended up getting Hansen's book, I believe there is a chapter in it about his AWA time and I'd be curious to see what he thought of Martel as a wrestler. I know what the guy he inherited the title from (Bock, through Jumbo, of course) thinks of his work, I'd love to know what the guy that took the title from him thinks of his work too.

Feel free to C and P it wherever you think it might be relevant, John. No issues here.

I agree with this post 100%. III kicked the WWF into a whole other stratosphere. As much as we wanted to believe that the other promotions could maintain or even gain on the WWF, I think most of us knew it wasn't the reality of the situation after III came and went.

..on Blackwell in St. Louis, he was pushed decently there but St. Louis was such an odd duck of a territory with the number of guys in and out that Blackwell's star there sort of blends in, as opposed to how it stands out in the AWA. I'm not a St. Louis expert of any sort but that's how I've seen his time there.

Blackwell was the AWA's MVP from 1980 through 1984 (Bobby Heenan notwithstanding). Monster heel when he came in as a single, and the fans HATED him. People were ready to lynch him for the beatings he used to give to young up-and-comers like Ron Ritchie and Steve O. His challenge to the AWA singles title was limited to a match or two against Verne in that time frame, but he was such a monster that he could be programmed with any face on the roster and it was compelling. His team with Kaissie was even more hated than Blackwell as a single. Their feud with Greg Gagne and Jim Brunzell was extremely hot, and begun very cleverly when the Flyers agreed to take a non-title match against the Sheiks as a favour to promoter Wally Karbo as the top chellengers could not be on the upcoming card. one non-title win later, their feud was born, and it carried on throughout 1982 and into the early part of 1983. Blackwell was the driving force in that feud, and they also managed to bring Mad Dog Vachon back for revenge against Blackwell for injuring him the year previous. Blackwell was able to hold up his end of it in two major programs almost at the same time, and was able to generate enough heat to bring the fans in for both. Keep in mind that Blackwell had been in the AWA for 3 years+ straight at this point, and was still able to maintain his aura of invincibility to a degree...no small feat. Out of the Vachon feud Blackwell moved right into his team with Ken Patera and a reign as the World Tag team Champions, a title that they held for a full year. From there, Blackwell was turned face in the infamous June 1984 battleroyal in St. Paul where Kaissie, Abdullah and Brody attacked im after he won it. Blackwell became the most popular wrestler in the AWA almost overnight, and had a lengthy albeit strangely booked feud with Brody running through the middle of 1985. Blackwell had health problems which affected his ability to wrestle regularly after the middle of 1985, but whenever he came back he was always greeted with a huge reaction. Even as late as 1989/90, Blackwell was brought into the Rochester TV tapings to team with the New Fantastics against the Destruction Crew and Johnny V, and he was still extremely over. As a heel, he had major feuds and programs with Mad Dog Vachon, Baron Von Raschke, Dino Bravo, The High Flyers, Hulk Hogan, Brad Rheingans and the Crusher. Hell, Verne got Andre to take a DQ loss to Blackwell in 1980, which I imagine wasn't a common (or inexpensive) thing back then. As a face, he had feuds with Kaissie and various forms of his army, Brody, The Freebirds, Boris Zurkov, Kamala, The Road Warriors, and I'm sure a few more I am forgetting. Blackwell drew, and was able to do so in a singular territory for the better part of ten years. that is no small feat.His transition to a face IMO extended his time as a top draw, simply because he had exhausted almost every avenue possible as a heel that could draw, with the possible exception of never doing a program with Rick Martel. He really found his niche in the AWA, and you have to give Verne Gagne a lot of credit for giving Jerry a chance to carry the ball as a monster heel, considering he was a mid-range heel at best in the WWWF previously and even less of a player in any other areas he may have been in previous to that (MACW is one he had a match or two in but no push from what I have seen. Mulligan squashed him in one match IIRC). I consider him a worthy candidate for the HOF and those that were also witness to his AWA run, especially 80 - 84 as a heel, would likely agree. Dave from the get-go has always been sour on the AWA and I suspect he has not seen much if any of Blackwell's 80 - 84 work as a heel. This hurts the idea that Dave would give him a push of any sort to improve his candidacy. But it's hard to argue the idea that he deserve serious consideration when you look at his body of work and sustained drawing/star power in what was one of the "Big Three" at the time of his ascent to key player.

I had heard about that but I thought it was a St. Louis thing. I *might* have read about it in Larry Matysik's book but I'm just guessing off the top of my head...

Jeez, that was AWFUL. The fans should be ashamed of themselves for cheering that abortion. If that's the sort of Daddy matches Metlzer has been exposed to, no wonder he might be hesitant to pushing his HOF candidacy forward.

I never liked the idea that current stars could go in....just seems like any HOF should have only retired stars eligible. I do realize that is problematic in wrestling since so many guys never really "retire". Upping the eligiblity age is about the only thing that helps even that out.

Of course. Hogan-Sheik is the most obvious example of a game-changing night that I could think of. There have been numerous game-changing nights throughout wrestling history, which is how I would interpret the question/statement right off the top of my head.

Hogan-Iron Sheik 1/23/84 needs to be in this discussion, if only for the whole "set-the-wheel-in-motion" dynamic.

...and it's been as annoying as hell since they started it. This has always been a pet peeve of mine, probably because my viewing of "arena matches" was forged from the stationary camera that the AWA used to use at the Civic Center in St. Paul. 1 camera, 1 angle on everything. I liked that.

I wouldn't discount the change in landscape that went on in wrestling back when the WWF was created, if that's how you're basing a part of your rating on. Bruno was the guy tapped to be the top dog for a fledgling promotion, and it must have taken something special to pull that off. I'm not saying you're wrong putting Hogan at #1, I'm just saying that Bruno's position was similar: "We've changed things, and you're going to lead us in making that change work".

When Undertaker goes into the HOF, they won't worry about him breaking character one bit. As such, it'll be after whenever his last match is. He'll wait until the next year to go in officially, with all the bells and whistles, so as not to take away from the last match of "the streak".

They may have aired complete on TSN, but I'd have to check on that. There is a July 1984 Martel-Bock match out there from St. Paul, but it's JIP fairly late as I remember, and I don't recall having it in any sort of decent quality. I don't think any of his defenses out of Montreal made TV any earlier than this, either.

Verne Gagne's retirement match was in 1981, fwiw.

It would have been the way the TV stations filmed it, likely stopping the camera at certain points when "nothing" was happening or likely was going to "happen".

For those that might not know, the Raw Footage matches like Martel-Robinson were shot at an alternate angle without commentary specifically for the purpose of being fed to the various TV Stations for their highlight packages of the Civic Center cards, which they would broadcast bits of on the sports show that evening (sometimes doing live cut-ins), and for the next night. Several stations got in on this from around 83 through the end of 85, at least. The resulting matches end up clipped up, but the majority are there because the stations would want to extract the best bits and the finishes from the matches for their broadcasts, but they didn't know when they would happen. Though I suspect that most of these were filmed with the standard AWA commentary/stationary camera, a large portion of these bouts have never surfaced and never aired on TV. Charles Warburton's list was the first/only place I ever saw the 3/83 - 12/83 Raw footage tape before I got it, and the 1984-85 stuff I received directly from a friend in Minnesota that had them lying around for years. He suspects there is a lot more but has no idea where they would be at this point. Anyhow, just some FYI on the background of those tapes.

The part that Bix mentions about how he hated the Chris and Nancy book but kept encouraging, almost INSISTING that people buy it to see how much it sucked for themselves is one I forgot about that explains my "he was nuts" comment better than I probably could.

He had mental issues that ended up distancing himself from fans interested in the shoots he was trying to do. Contructive criticism was NOT welcome, and if you couldn't help him out at the pace he wanted, it was your fault...and he would blame you personally for it.

$50,000. And no, Wanz's reign didn't devalue the AWA title at all. That happened when things happened like Verne retiring with the AWA title in 1981 and Bockwinkel being given the title back (instead of even a one-night tournament to determine a new champ), Hansen walking out and Bockwinkel being awarded the title in 1986, and Lawler getting stripped and Larry Z winning it in a battleroyal in 1989. Wanz won and lost the title in the ring. With Wanz being a star from across the pond, it gave the AWA title an "international" feel...anyone-on-any-given-night, that sort of thing. Those things hurt the cred of the title. Wanz winning it did not, especially when it wasn't common knowledge that Wanz paid for the reign.

All I know is that I tuned into the main event last night because I was interested in what would happen. First time I've been interested in "the current product" in years. I found the match, atmosphere, and everything else about it extremely entertaining. I'm watching Raw tonight..haven't done that on purpose in years. WWE built a great angle, and executed it on PPV extremely well. I'm well past the point of offering anyting else on that subject except to say "Well Done, WWE." I hope they can keep it going, but if not I'm glad that there was a recent blow-away moment that reminded me of what a huge fan I was "back in the day". It's the same reason I'll be a fan of some sort until I die, I think. THIS sort of stuff can still happen sometimes, and it hits home.

There are matches against Abdullah the Butcher, King Tonga, Jim Garvin, Steve Strong, Dino Bravo, Sheik Ali, and others available in singles, as well as tags with Bravo against teams like Tonga/Superstar, Garvin/Ali, the Road Warriors, and many others I'm forgetting. In terms of 70's stuff there's a match against Race that's fairly common for the NWA title on TV, and some stuff from the Portland 70's tapes as I recall. Not a ton more, I don't think.

Further to your point, Hennig was able to have some really good matches against talent that had no business being in such a good match, if that makes sense. It speaks almost as a plus for Hennig that he was able to make his title matches compelling for the most part.

Are you talking about their entire AWA run, or each's run as the Champ? Martel entered the AWA in 1982, left briefly and returned in March/April of 1984, winning the title May 13 1984. he held it until December 29 1985, almost 20 months. He was out for good by April of 1986. Hennig was almost a fixture in the AWA from his debut through his jump to the WWF in July of 1988, so his time in the area was longer overall. He reigned as champ from May 2 1987 until May 9 1988, 12 months. So, for clarity, Martel hald the title longer, but Hennig spent more time overall in the AWA. You have a disc coming of Martel's Montreal work from 83-85 so you will be able to judge it accordingly soon enough. Reading this, the first thing I thought of was "you could take out the word 'Bockwinkel' and put in the word 'Martel', and it would work just as well". I think it explains why Bockwinkel was so high on Martel to be his successor in 1984 as Champ (Bock lobbied hard for Rick). Both of them really do everything well, no glaring weaknesses in either's game.

Oxymore. ...on?