thebrainfollower

That's an intriguing theory actually cross face. I question what's been the bigger problem, the WHO they've tried to make as stars, or the HOW they've gone about doing it. The who is not listening to their audience. I feel sometimes that if 2016 Vince were booking back then it would be Wrestlemania XI. Lex Luger would STILL be the top guy and he'd still be failing to unseat Yokozuna at every opportunity.

Oh I am not blaming Barbie for that one.

As is its descent into mediocrity and irrelevance. Wrestling has never been making less money for less people at any point in its existence. It has never been this cold for this long ever in its history.

It's wrestling. Let the fans have their fun. If someone did this in a play I ran though I'd probably have to show them the door but that's a different atmosphere

And Jerry Vince hardly invented the idea of mega stars. People came to see Wrestler X long before Vince McMahon ever started out in wrestling. He used marketing in a way no one ever had, particularly with children. But there were larger than life characters that drew money for decades before Vince was even born. But even in 84 you can see Vince trying to build the WWF as the brand. You can't deny that Hogan was the draw though, the data that he drew nearly half the house of every card he worked at for years is there for all to see. But I think deep down Vince resented that. You can see how strained their relationship grew and their whole WM XIX feud is based on "who built the WWF you or me". It took each man's real feelings and used that to create a feud, which was a great idea. I also think you cannot underestimate how self-destructive people in power become once they've "won" whatever war they are or think they are fighting.

The first thing I've learned Jerry is to take people in power with a grain of salt. The more they claim X and shove X down everyone's throat it's because X is completely untrue and they are covering up. With Vince the moment WCW died, the spark to truly be excellent died within Vince. No one needed WCW more than Vince McMahon. If that' not fn irony I don't know what is.

I hope you're wrong Loss. If you're right, this lasts another 30 years at least.

Rock telling them to F off again strikes me as the likely result if there's any attempt at punishment over something that trivial.

You mean with Lana?

Love the idea of this though there are little things here and there I don't care for. Undertaker vs. Hakushi strikes me as a really bad match idea, since I can't see UT being able to work that pace or take most of Hakushi's offense. He'd bury him even if he wasn't trying to. Also I think the 91 and 94 title changes both should stay. With only 4 PPV's a year, it's not a bad idea to be able to have a title change at each if you need one. I also think Bret needed a singles win in a big match to end the show at 92 to really cement he's the guy. Bam Bam had barely returned at that point, having him lose to Bret here would be counter productive.

Not being a lucha fan this was someone I wasn't really aware of and is now in my top 10. I didn't watch any of his brief WWF run, thinking it not relevant to his case. Was that an error? Anything I should see?

Good last line and one that connects back to this very thread. Roman Reigns isn't a winner. He's not even a face who is defeated by cheating at the Rumble, well not really. I do think JVK might be right. Either there's a very civil Civil War in WWE right now over him and the booking reflects that or Vince has no faith in the guy. OR Vince has played a heel so long he's starting to book more like one without realizing it I guess.

I played in tournaments for the WWE CCG. A random "show up" prize was always a 2004 PPV DVD. In the course of 3 years I won 4 copies of Vengeance lol

There's a lot I liked about 2004 Raw but HHH's run on top, particularly the terrible way they handled the Orton face turn, left a sour taste in my mouth. Great near main events, mid card and women's division, lousy mains at times (Benoit I would argue was never the main event except when he was facing HHH and Shawn). Oddly reminds me of peak Nitro.

I guess. But as a NA based wrestler, would she even be working if not in WWE? She's clearly not doing Japan or needing to do the indies to earn a living. I think the Bellas have both said they are planning on about 2 years at most. Break aside, their careers have been much longer than the average diva by this point.

Hmmmmmmmmmm. As a New England resident, it would seem to me the way the team took off in popularity after being average for decades under Brady and Bellicheck makes me wonder about that. But that's another thread entirely. Agree about the NBA for sure though. Was watching a sixers game the other night and assuming tickets must be at 1985 prices given how few people seem to be going, even though they are terrible.

Watched Supertape 3 today. his match with Snuka is the pits. I think Barb had the tools but not the mind to be a great wrestler.

Nikki just underwent neck surgery so I assume she won't be coming back till Summerslam, probably around the same time Cena does. I think Mania is the time to go with Sasha and pull the trigger on a Rock like style of face who works and acts more like a heel.

Vince controls the shares. It's not about Brock leaving it's about a ton of stars leaving and Vince struggling for years to come back from that and not wanting to be put in that desperate a situation again. There are many creators who screw over their own fanbase out of spite. There's no way George Lucas wasn't aware that the fans hated Vader's pathetic NOOOOOOOOOOO at the end of Revenge of the Sith. And lo and behold he puts that exact same sound during probably fandom's favorite moment in Return of the Jedi's blu ray. He's trolling his audience. Vince has been doing the same. But do I think Vince COULD create another Rock or Austin and have another boom? No I don't think he could. Partly that's the writers and their in a bubble boss, partly that's the corporate culture and partly that's Vince being totally out of touch with modern culture (and I don't blame him at his age). I also don't think he wants another boom or needs it in the way he did in 84 and 98 however. So as suggested it's a combination of a lot of things. But the bottom line is that Vince wants WWE to be the star. You go to see WWE. You don't go to see wrestler X. That's the fundamental change of the last 15 years, it's yet another step to take wrestling away from sport (nobody goes to a Patriots game to see football, they go to see Tom Brady and co) and it's a recipe to stay afloat and mediocre. Vince in 84 would be disgusted to see what a wuss Vince 2016 is.

Matt D hit it on the head with point 3. Jerry you want wrestling to be about big stars. You're a heel guy but you're smart enough to see WWE has traditionally been a babyface company. You correctly see the company as mediocre right now and you assume (correctly IMO) a huge solution would be to create a new transcendent babyface ala Bruno, Hulk or Austin. Then you argue Roman Reigns isn't that guy because of how he's booked. VINCE DOES NOT WANT HUGE STARS. He doesn't want anyone bigger than WWE, he doesn't want the company to be reliant on a single star or even a few stars. Because said star might leave him and he can't handle that situation anymore. He doesn't have the ability to create a new megastar because his values and beliefs are totally out of sync with society and has been for a decade plus. And Vince is too stubborn to change or move on. WWE today is the circus. It comes 1-2 times a year, you see it to see IT not any one act or star and you move on. That's what Vince wants, that won't change. It's not a failure of booking it's a decision to settle for mediocrity rather than excellence. Whether it's just desserts this happened to Vince or a tragedy is up to you. I think that if people HAD embraced Cena as the next megastar like Austin his push would have actually gone down. He'd have lost tons of matches and never gotten the sustained runs he's had but that could be an insane view with nothing to back it up.

Actually Timbo HHH ending a 1 year Austin heel run at WM XVIII was the original plan. The Austin heel turn being aborted changed all that.

I tried syncing the two up. Not easy at all

There's a card headlined by George Steele vs. Danny Davis from 87 in a major market but I forget which one

Funny that Johnny and I are in complete agreement about the bizarre ignorant love of all things Japanese. And PWO's bizarre niche of the niche status. Yeah Bret as a good guy in Canada only started in 87. I am not sure what the crowd reaction would have been in old Stampede cities, but none of those cards were televised.

Also Chris Candido and Sunny. That was more the Kliq than Vince himself. I don't know if Sunny suddenly becoming just a celebrity in November of 96 and ceasing to have any functional role in the WWF for 18 months was a result of her drug problems becoming more known or relationship politics but it was one of those things. This sort of thing seems to happen more often than you'd think in WWE. In Vince's world the biggest most muscular jock should always have the hottest girl. Nikki Bella is exactly how he perceives women to be.