thebrainfollower

I will say this though, if this turns into an UT match quality or workrate discussion it's just totally missing the point of what Undertaker and WWE are. Also I do have an issue with this concept. What is the Undertaker on trial for? Being promoted as a bigger deal than he ever was? How is this his fault? It's not like Shawn's refusal to drop belts or HHH's decades of politics, if anyone should be on trial here it would be WWE not the Undertaker himself. It's not like he goes around bragging about being the biggest star in history and the key to WWE's success all the time.

This is a really tough question because it completely relates to WWE's bizarre version of wrestling history where a handful of friends are mostly responsible for everything good in wrestling during its biggest boom period. According to WWF Shawn Michaels is the GOAT and I don't think he belongs in a top 50 list. According to WWE the turnaround on the Monday Night War was HHH (and some others losers) showing up at Nitro with a tank. And according to WWE Undertaker is their longest and most consistent star ever, the living epitome of everything WWE is. So let's take a look at this. First off was Undertaker ever THE guy in WWE? My answer is going to be most definitely no. At no point in his career was he the top babyface in a company that (HHH aside) has always been a babyface company. At best he was second to Lex Luger, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin and John Cena. In that sense he's basically in the Andre role during the Bruno/Backlund eras, a big star who pops a crowd and is a special attraction but is nowhere near the centerpiece of the promotion. Did UT draw money? That's harder to say. People usually came to see someone taking on the UT rather than Taker himself for much of his career. That's true of his early days with Warrior and Hogan and it's still true when he's fighting Austin years later. Once he became a part timer, with mostly a WM match each year, then I would say he became a draw. The streak itself was a big selling point and it's completely bizarre and thrown together ending is still a sour note for many fans. I give him a ton of credit for taking a gimmick that should have lasted about as long as Papa Shango and turning it into the most successful wrestling gimmick of all time. He's a huge star, and a hall of famer and definitely among the most important 50 wrestlers of the last 60 years. But yes WWE massively overplays his importance to company history, largely as a result of backstage politics (not so much directly on his part I feel) and Vince's falling out at various times with the people who ARE arguably the biggest stars in company history (Bruno, Hogan, Rock and Austin)

The thing is Parv, you are applying 80's criteria to 90's wrestlers. You ask if Jericho, Rey, etc main evented B shows? No they didn't. Because there weren't any WCW B house shows to main event. The company was not a house show company by then, it was a wrestling show on TV that occasionally did house shows, but those were of very little importance to it, and it only ran one a night at most. So that's not a fair comparison. Where they were on TV during the time is a much more valid way of comparing their worth. And those guys main evented Saturday Night, Pro, Worldwide and the other many random WCW TV shows all the time. As to which meant more, I'd call it a wash honestly but it's really comparing apples and oranges.

Favorite was the Undertaker. The intrigue was that for the first time, two of my hobbies were merging. As a kid I was hugely into classic black and white monster movies. The Undertaker was almost like a character out of that, the Boris Karloff Frankenstein monster come to life. And when they added Paul Bearer, it resonated with me all the more. I remember being the ONLY kid in the Worcester Centrum cheering as UT took on Hogan in July of 91 in their first singles match together.

WWF from the fall of 86 through the end of 1992. WCW fall of 91-spring of 92, and again from about November of 95 through June 98. Smoky Mountain Wrestling particularly 92 through the spring of 94 Memphis from 79-84 (haven't seen much before that) Mid South 1984

I did listen to both podcasts and think it's a good job overall. But to be honest, I found the one person podcast just not as interesting as listening to a conversation. That's no knock, just a personal preference.

Yeah I have literally 100 house shows to catch up on. I try to watch 1 every other day but this is truly the golden age of online WWF footage. I got the entire 86, 87, 88 and 91 runs of Superstars on dailymotion this week too.

And.............I have a 14 hour work day starting in an hour. Well at least I have something exciting to await. I'm glad the Titans at least managed to get through the era of Kal Rudman on the mic. Though he hung around right till the end at the Spectrum (and DID do commentary for the last 2 matches ever televised on Prism, which I am fairly sure he and Dick knew was the last televised card and to hell with it, we're doing this together) it was never the same in Philly without him. He would have been loads of fun on the mic during the Hulkamania era, particularly with guest commentators (Kal and Bobby Heenan would have been the greatest thing ever) and it's a shame it didn't happen. Bottom line I want to thank the Titans. I barely knew who Kal Rudman was before this podcast began.

I def wanna do one

I hear you. I download like 3 a day now. I don't have anywhere near the time to watch them all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4WJh-UPHME I think this would be a great card for Titans MT. It's a C show if ever there was one.

I went to an Indy show around 2011 where Sid's sole contribution to the match was three elbows to get out of a sleeper and kneeling on all 4's to pin his opponent after a manager miscommunication spot. He took no bumps at all either. So compared to that Tatanka does still have it.

I love me Bret Hart. You are right though about Worldwide and Pro being much better. I was referring to the Saturday Night show which everyone seems to think was the greatest show of all time. Really glad to see Jerry Von Kramer back. This place isn't the same without you Parv!

Tempted to get into my Trish Stratus Top 100 debate again but actually it's this.......... I think Dusty era Crockett is some of the most boring TV around. Each week nothing happens. You have a bunch of squash matches that are either so short it's absurd or way too long. You rarely have a decent match and when you do it's guaranteed to end in a DQ. You have Ric Flair and the Horsemen cutting the same promos week in and week out and never really saying anything, you have everyone putting over Dusty so much it's silly and you have a lousy announcer like David Crockett and an overrated one in Jim Ross a bit later on. There are a FEW exceptions (last episode of 85 and Ole's turn) but they are very rare. The WWF weekly shows are a heck of a lot more varied and interesting to me. Not putting on the whole roster each and every week makes a big difference. It's not an anti-Southern thing on my part either because I think Memphis, Smoky Mountain and Mid South are all great. Dusty era Crockett is the most overrated product in wrestling history IMO.

Great show. I agree the state of podcasting around here is a sad state of affairs. I've had an idea to look at all the surviving episodes of Memphis TV but I don't think my intended co-host has the time. It's tough to get a podcast off the ground. Hopefully Parv, Johnny and everyone else returns someday.

DDP was fine but Maria ragging on Divas who didn't pay their dues and learn to work was pretty funny.

First memory is seeing a replay of Valentine breaking Tito's leg. Then seeing Tito laid up in the hospital vowing revenge. Oddly my memory is that he wore sunglasses during that promo, but that doesn't make much sense.

I've actually always thought Montreal could have been a work. I mean if Vince HAD gone to Bret with that idea, would he have gone along with the finish do you think? It certainly didn't make him look bad at all and it still got the belt on Shawn.

Funny moment. I'm on FB as I am listening to this and clearly either Chad or Parv was as well because I heard them getting FB messages on the podcast and assumed it was for me

Ghosts and Gravestones is a historical/horror half trolley half walking tour. We go into 17th century graveyards at night, see where the Boston Strangler killed his final victim, etc. It's a really fun night IMO

I forgot to mention the surreal one time only pairing of Hat Guy and Ivan at a WCW PPV. Mr. WWF and Mr. ECW both crossing to the competition in the same place is quite odd.

I have almost no interest in watching single matches anymore.

No we live in a humane world where that sort of abuse is no longer tolerated. It's why pro wrestling is what it is, it simply hasn't evolved in pace with society in this country.

The only person to say anything bad about Trish was Billy Gunn who basically implied he got her foot in the door in exchange for regular sex on the road, and she didn't deliver so the Johnny Ace attitude goes back further than him, not that we didn't know that. Of course the fact that Billy Gunn was that delusional and thought nothing wrong of that sort of quid pro quo speaks far more of him.

Was this a one shot thing for Maryse or is she now part of the Miz's act?