DMJ

This could go in the Ziggler thread (if there is one), but I'll posit it here in case it gains no traction... Ziggler reminds me of 89' Luger or even modern Jericho and (I predict) Bray Wyatt in that he is more over as a face when he's supposed to be a heel than he ever is when he's an actual face. For example, wasn't his initial big push a few years back a "double turn" with ADR where Ziggler, the heel, was getting cheered because the crowd felt it was "his time" and Del Rio was flopping as a good guy? As good as his feud with Miz was, the "Thank You Ziggler" chant he received after Pillmanizing Apollo Crews seemed louder than any pop he had during that feud, which I'd say was probably his peak in popularity. It's a funny thing to me and one that is not super common. Even Austin, who was booked as a heel at the start of 97' for example, got MORE over when he was clearly a face in 98' so it's not like you can just explain it away as "fans like to cheer heels." Another example not being the case would be Rollins - save for some nights here or there, he got a general 50/50 response as a heel (which is par for the course) while, after the turn, he now gets a fairly muted response and is obviously not mega-over. Ziggler, on the other hand, has been consistently more "beloved" when the smarks feel like the WWE is trying to "book him into being unpopular" or something.

Gotta second KawadaSmile - I can't recall an EC match I enjoyed as thoroughly as this. To me, it really had all the right ingredients for me (even if the winner was somewhat predictable). - Crowd was absolutely hot from the start and John Cena, from the moment he came on screen, was "on." - I know the whole "Bacon Makes Everything Better" meme is seriously outdated and played out but is there a better metaphor for AJ Styles? His performance was further evidence that his mere presence makes a match better. - Thought the Ambrose/AJ/Cena segment was better in its short duration than the entirety of their 3-way match a few months back, which I thought was good-not-great. - Not to harken back on AJ too much, but while the closing stretch wasn't that great, it still was good enough for me (along with their initial interactions in the match) to say, "Yeah, AJ has chemistry with Bray too and I wouldn't mind them having a program down the line either." - Corbin and Braun Strowman are on these parallel paths from being not very good at all to being guys I like. Loved the way Corbin, after hitting the End of Days on Cena, just seemed so super psyched and proud of himself - which is exactly how he SHOULD feel because, hey, he just hit his End of Days on John F'N Cena! Sure, a 10-year vet would have the presence of mind to go for the cover, but Corbin is not a 10-year vet in kayfabe or reality, so, it really worked for me. - The only guy who seemed to get the short-shrift to me was Miz. He got beaten pretty handily by Cena in there so I don't see how they're going towards a Cena/Miz feud even with Nikki and Nattie in mind. If they were interested in that story, they should've had Miz look a little more dominant. Overall, no less than 4 stars from me.

I think the answer to the question posed in the thread might be "Because the late 90s/early 00s happened." There was a time when the 3-way or 4-way match was really novel, but then it became a monthly happening on Nitro and RAW and often occurred without a single storyline purpose beyond "let's get more guys in this 24-hour Hardcore Title match because lord knows nobody wants to see Viscera or Pete Gas in a singles match." Oddly, I do think the WWE has done a pretty decent job over the past few years in bringing some "specialness" back to the stipulation. Over just the past few years, I had the matches below at 3.5-4 stars: - Banks vs. Charlotte vs. Bayley vs. Lynch (NXT Takeover: Rival) - Orton vs. Ambrose vs. Reigns vs. Rollins (Payback 2015, I think?) - Banks vs. Charlotte vs. Lynch (WrestleMania 32) (only good match on the show, IIRC) - Zayn vs. Owens vs. Miz vs. Cesaro (Extreme Rules 2016) And I rated Rollins/Cena/Lesnar from Royal Rumble 2015 a very strong 4.5. (And I'm gonna be a bit unapologetic there as Austin called it "the best 3-way he'd ever seen" on his podcast the day after too - so, y'know, even if hindsight that rating is a bit hyperbolic, at the time, I loved it and others did too)

I was genuinely surprised that he didn't show up on last year's show and now I'd be even more shocked if he did show up at Mania (even satellite). I'm guessing, despite his ties to Trump, Vince is wise enough not to touch this issue with a 20 foot ladder. On a separate note, I'm really eager to read a lengthy, well-researched article connecting Trump's controversial attitudes and image with his various appearances on WWE programming. For example, did the RAW writers forecast Trump's rabble-rousing and "populist" message during his feud with Vince? Wasn't there a segment where he basically dropped a couple grand from the ceiling of an arena and had fans grabbing at cash in a frenzy? I feel like there's a link there to his campaign promises that hasn't been fleshed out yet.

Something tells me we won't be getting a "Tell Me A Lie" music video when Foley leaves his GM post. (Full confession: I just wanted to remind everyone about "Tell Me A Lie {HQ} - YouTube" )

Gallagher was one of the show's highlights to me. He's also, aside from Neville somewhat, the only guy in the CW division who the company seems to have any interest in promoting. Complaints on both sides - "He's a comedy character and there's no room for humor in a 60-minute, 30-man wrestling match!" or "He's a legit shooter so he should be pushed like a no-nonsense ass kicker" - are equally stupid and annoyingly identical to the shit that people said about Santino years back (and I'd take Gallagher's act over anything Santino all day, every day, for the next 50 years).

I expect Strowman to win the Andre the Giant Battle Royal, but man, I would much prefer a Henry/Strowman match just because the chemistry there was obvious at Rumble. Then again, with Shaq/Show likely (?), I'm not sure they need another Giant vs. Giant match and I'm not sure I'd actually like as much in reality as I do on paper. If they can hold it off till another PPV (and not blow through it on RAW), though, it'd be a real strong midcard match. Love the idea of HHH/Joe vs. Zayn and Balor, especially if they play it like Joe is just running roughshod over people and he and Triple H make Zayn's life miserable just because they don't like him. Then, a week or two before the show, Zayn is getting beat down for the nth time and either (a) Balor makes a surprise return to save him or ( Zayn announces that he's got a friend who has unfinished business with Joe and it's Finn or (if he's healthy) Seth Rollins. Any which way, adding Joe and Zayn to the Rollins/HHH angle would do a ton in making it interesting to me.

Can someone explain SAnItY to me? I mostly watch the NXT Takeover shows and am confused by the gimmick. Are they like escaped mental patients or just crazy meth-heads or a Wyatt Family cult? Are they cyber-terrorists? I just don't understand what their raison d'être is and the outfits feature a half dozen different cultural signifiers. I can post this question in another thread if no one feels like answering here.

Anyone think there's a chance we'll see Styles/Cena/Orton at Mania in a 3-way and that this is "the idea that the IWC is gonna love"? At EC, due to some sort of Wyatt Family shenanigans involving Orton (and maybe Harper involved too), Cena gets screwed out of the title when Randy tries to help Bray - but the plan gets fudged up somehow and its AJ Styles who walks out as champ. AJ vs. Orton is set, but Cena, having been screwed, gets his rematch clause and inserts himself into the match. Bray Wyatt gets the "rub" by being Orton's cornerman and Styles continues to be elevated by being spotlighted in a match with the two biggest full time guys of the past decade.

Full review on my blog. Few takes - - Thought the Rumble match was really good for first third, sagged in the middle, and then picked up a great deal once Lesnar came in at #26. - Thought Cena/AJ was an improvement from SummerSlam and MITB last year. Can't place my finger on why, but it may have been context and expectations. AJ is hotter now. Match was happening in front of a hotter crowd. Cena has been off TV for longer. Whatever the reason, when you combine it with how well everything was executed, I think this was a better match than their "SummerSlam classic" (which I didn't even put in my WWE Top 10 of the year). - I'm a Rumble traditionalist. I think the most over babyface or the most over heel should win every year (see 91'-01') and that "upper midcard" guys winning and "main eventing" WrestleMania in the 4th most hyped match on the card is silly (see ADR's and Sheamus' wins). Add Orton to that list. I'm not sure who the better option was this year - Goldberg? Lesnar? Jericho? Taker? AJ at 30 instead of Reigns? - but when you have 8 weeks of TV and two more brand-specific pay-per-views before Mania (one involving an Elimination Chamber for the title, no less) you could essentially have whoever you want win it and still not be "stuck" (case in point - Orton won and nobody believes he'll be closing the show in April). Why not have the crowd go insane with a feel-good Goldberg win? Or for a Lesnar win? Or for a Taker win? Or even "embrace the hate" and have Reigns get mega-heat by eliminating Taker or Goldberg last? Orton was the least controversial winner they could've went with when the WWE only sometimes sticks to the "Rumble Winner challenges World Champion in Last Match at WrestleMania" formula of the 90s. (In fact, in the past 7 years, that's not been the case just as much as it has been).

Full write-up posted on my blog... Quick takes - * Match-for-match, I didn't find a single one offensive - but also didn't rate a single one at 4-stars, which hasn't been the case for most recent TakeOver specials as, for these events, you're likely to see at least one Match of the Year candidate (even if its a low-end contender). * As heatless as Strong/Almas was, I think Almas is finally getting somewhere as a heel. He worked hard to get heat and the crowd seemed at least somewhat interested by the end. Not the worst match in TakeOver history (that' d be Dempsey/Corbin from NXT Takeover: Rival if you ask me) or even in the past 12 months (I found TM61 vs. Authors of Pain from the last show pretty dumb). * Liked the result, but didn't love the finish solely because I've spent the last 2-3 months stating on multiple platforms how dumb the WWE would be not to have Nakamura debut at the Rumble tonight. Based on the finish, him debuting would be ridiculous as they put a lot of work into getting the injury angle over, but whatever, the greater good (and necessary step) is to have Nakamura get a mega-pop tonight to help establish him as a big deal like they did with AJ Styles last year. With only Cena and Ambrose as dependable babyface stars on the Blue Brand these days, they need an instant game-changer and major WrestleMania player and Nakamura is the only "call up" that fits the bill. I'm a Joe fan, but nobody touches Nakamura's "It" factor and I really don't see them positioning Joe into a huge Mania match the minute he debuts. Nakamura, though? Far more likely to me. * The formula with Roode is going to have to be setting him up against guys that are worth rooting over and exciting to watch. Sadly, without guys like Sami Zayn, Nakamura, or Balor, there aren't many faces on the current NXT roster that I find particularly engrossing as characters. I don't think Roode is "boring," but this match kinda proved that his entire persona relies on him having foils that will bring the flash that he doesn't have. Roderick Strong won't work. I'm not even sure Kassius Ohno will work unless he really gets over to the same extent that a Zayn did. Fortunately, they have plenty of time to build up a talent for Roode to face at the next TakeOver, but all the time in the world won't matter if there isn't a guy that has big enough personality to offset Roode's ultra-serious, purposefully dour character.

Main event time - Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Bobby Roode for Nakamura's NXT Championship. As has become the norm, Roode gets a magnificent entrance, with the crowd singing along to his theme. Not to be outdone, Nakamura comes in on a Green Goblin-esque glider fitted with strobe lights. The crowd was fairly split here, though I think there were a fair number of fans like myself who were rooting for Roode only because we're eager to see Nakamura get the well-earned "call up." Good but not great first third with Roode in control, which is par for the course with the Glorious One as he's never been a particularly flashy performer. Nakamura's comeback picked up the pace and the suspense level raised quite a bit when Roode played possum to combat Nakamura's multiple attempts at a Kinchasa. The faux injury angle actually hurt this one for me - I'm not sure it was entirely necessary when you could've reached the same conclusion without having essentially a 2-3 minute break in the middle of the match with trainers and extra refs and, at one point, Albert showing up at ringside. While not a MOTYC like most of Nakamura's other TakeOver bouts have been, I thought the last two thirds were very good/almost great. (3.5/5)

Voted for the Hitman, but mostly because he's the best "total package" on the list for me. Maybe not the best in any specific category, but top 3-4 in most categories I'd consider (promos, great matches, babyface/heel work, selling, execution of offense). For the same reason, I might place Christian somewhere in my top 5.

Yeah. I'm thinking AJ somehow retains and Taker accidentally costs Cena the title at Elimination Chamber. Then, we'll get Cena/Taker at Mania (even though various outlets reported that its off the table). I just don't see them going into Mania with HHH, Lesnar, Goldberg, and Taker (and likely Shaq) all making somewhat steady appearances on RAW and SD buoyed by only AJ and Cena. At least, in my mind, that'd be silly. The key piece (again, in my mind) is Nakamura, even moreso than Samoa Joe. Joe coming up would be cool, but he's not ready from Day 1 to be a top SD attraction (especially when the brand is already full of really strong heels - AJ, Miz, and Corbin all being positioned rather well over the past few months and Ziggler freshly turned). Nakamura, meanwhile, can come in and from Day 1 feel like a legitimate main event babyface that is credible enough to challenge for the WWE Championship as long as he makes a strong showing at Elimination Chamber. And you won't get a better pop for his debut than on Sunday. If they don't bring him up this weekend, they may as well friggin' wait another 12 months because this is the time for him. AJ/Nakamura at Mania would be your "IWC pleaser" too and set up the main event card decently: Reigns/Braun (Universal Title probably) Owens/Jericho Rollins/HHH Styles/Nak Cena/Taker Goldberg/Lesnar Clusterfuck for IC or US Title Fourway for RAW Women's etc. etc.

While I'm not sure he'd come close to toppling Flair or the Japanese guys who have been mentioned or Bryan, "Big Match John"'s collection of 4-star outings probably isn't too shabby compared to other WWE aces. He probably has far less 4.5 or 5* matches, but in terms of sheer output, the amount he has in that 4* sweet spot is probably fairly high.

Based on only what I've reviewed from the Network on my blog up to August of last year... **** Flair vs. Race (Starrcade 83) Flair and Anderson vs. Doom (Havoc 90) Flair and Anderson vs. Hollywood Blondes (Clash 23) Rude vs. Flair (Fall Brawl 93) Vader vs. Flair (Starrcade 93) Flair and Sting vs. Vader and Rude (Clash 26) Flair vs. Hogan (Bash 94) Flair vs. Savage (Bash 95) Flair vs. Savage (SuperBrawl 6) Flair and Anderson vs. Greene and Mongo (Bash 96) **** 1/2 Flair vs. Steamboat (Spring Stampede 94) Flair and Sting vs. Anderson and Pillman (Havoc 95) Over the past couple months I've watched the big shows from 89 on the Network so Flair now has even more 4.5 and 5s on my spreadsheet, plus, off hand, I could probably name at least three more matches that I haven't reviewed but would likely reward 4s at least (vs. HBK at WM24, for example, or vs. Savage at WM8) and one more 5 star (Rumble 92).

What intrigues me would be to know the exact day Vince changed his mind. I'm guessing the day after the Rumble, but is it possible they foresaw the massive dump the crowd and all fans would take on that show a week earlier and thought "Let's go ahead and not have Bryan entered and have Batista go over and this will really, really get the people behind Bryan"? We can all agree they didn't want Bryan in that spot in November or December, but by February, it was pretty clear they were heading in that direction IIRC, so, I'm just curious when the change happened.

Obviously, hindsight's always 20/20, but I'd say Cena's booking post Mania 21 really only sucked for that one summer and ended the minute Edge won the title. Unlike Christian, Jericho, and Angle, Edge was, in late 05', getting great heat from the Matt Hardy/Lita scandal. Also unlike those three, Edge was never championed as a top 5 worker or a guy who had been "held down," so the "You Can't Wrestle" criticisms of Cena in 05'/06' were kind of negligent. Edge was Cena's greatest rival for that run and I think one could argue his best rival ever. By WM22, the E definitely locked in on Cena as "the most controversial Champion ever" and wisely booked accordingly. Oddly enough, at ONS2, we saw the first crack in the Cena Sucks trope - Cena came in despised as a "phony" and then delivered one of the most iconic "Never Give Up" performances of his career, walking into a den of wolves and, though he wouldn't have his title, walking out John Cena. Anyone watching at the time can't forget Cena tossing his shirt into the crowd and having it tossed back and the "If Cena Wins, We Riot" flag, nor can they forget how thrilling the match was. Cena may still have been loathed as a character, but Cena the Performer gained the begrudging respect of many that night. I'm not sure better booking was even possible back then, all things considered. The cheese of some of his promos could've been cut by half, sure, but he almost always delivered when he had to get serious. There were repetitive feuds/matches against Edge, Big Show, Orton, and others for the next 5 years, but I'm not sure lining up more dominant heels would've really gotten Cena more over anyway. In fact, the love for Cena in recent years seems to have hit highest when he was up against guys that rivaled his own popularity - CM Punk and Daniel Bryan - rather than positioned against monsters he had to conquer (Khali, Rusev).

When Daniel Bryan was wrestling multiple times a night in 2013-14, I was amazed by his athleticism and conditioning. I mean, Cesaro and Cena have freak strength and obviously prime Mysterio or Juvi were unbelievably acrobatic, but Bryan's conditioning was just as impressive to me as he was required to essentially wrestle 30+ minutes a night, but take breaks between matches at times, bring matches up and down in terms of speed and intensity, etc. I'd compare it to running 3 miles in one 40 minute workout (which is intense but very doable on an elliptical for someone in moderate health) to running a mile, then stopping for maybe an hour, and then jogging another mile, stopping for 5 minutes to sell or stand on the apron or whatever, and then sprinting a last mile. He was doing this it seemed like every RAW for a stretch in the summer. And, though it doesn't really need to be said, doing it really, really, really well.

Charlotte has done 10+ minute promos before and handled them better than anyone on the Raw roster besides Jericho/Steph/HHH. I didn't see the segment, but maybe it was just a bad night/bad set up. There is no active talent on Raw outside of Jericho that I trust to fill 10-15 minutes of promo time more than Charlotte. I'd say - watch the segment. As I wrote, I'm still a fan of both women and Charlotte is easily my pick for the best heel on the RAW roster (if not the whole company, though, I might put Miz a notch higher). The set-up: Charlotte comes out to run down Bayley as being the "average fan" and then proceeds to show embarrassing photos of her on the Titantron. With the right producer, this could've been a good segment...but they forgot to write punchlines or she forgot to deliver them. At one point, she showed a picture of Bayley with Bret Hart and her put-down was "Woah, hope Nattie doesn't see this." Um, what? Is the implication that Bayley, who looks 14 in the photo, was trying to hook-up with a gray-haired Hitman and Nattie would care because that's her dad's former tag partner? Later, she made some comment about the crowd not being able to read before she herself was unable to read the poem on the Titantron - the epitome of being the butt of her own joke. In my previous post I already described another non-joke when she showed a picture of Bayley with either Ivory or Mickie James or some other diva I couldn't quite picture and Charlotte (who also seemed unable to name the diva) said, "I don't even know what to say about that." And in the reality of the segment, we're meant to believe that Charlotte had PROVIDED these photos to show on the Titantron, that she'd dug them up and had been laughing about them all day...but in the delivery, it was apparent that she had probably never seen these photos before and had never read Bayley's poem before. If not, she's a better actress than I give her credit for because she played "unprepared" well enough to deserve an Oscar. The only good line Charlotte delivered the whole time was an ad-lib where she called someone in the crowd "four eyes" and it was eerily reminiscent of how Flair used to call people "fat boy." I know tearing up this particular promo is gonna get misconstrued into meaning that I don't think Charlotte is awesome. She is. I'm not "inventing reasons" to dislike her because I think she's infallible, but because this is the sort of segment that has turned lesser workers "average," no longer credible, or regarded as stars. I don't want that to happen to Charlotte...but enough poorly planned, poorly executed, and poorly conceived segments, like this one, will do it. Just ask 2015 Dean Ambrose.

Probably not the place to say it, but I see Roman as Batista-esque in the promo department. As a scripted babyface being handed punchlines to read, he is not great, but I predict, when/if he does turn heel, he's going to be really good at trolling the crowd and getting heat (like that Batista run against Cena where he was doing those spotlight promos).

Man, I really like Charlotte and Bayley, but that segment on RAW was just awfully uncomfortable - just absolutely dreadful. Charlotte is not good enough to go 10+ minutes on the mic. I think I could list on one hand the number of wrestlers that can go that long so its not a knock against her. At certain points in the segment she was mocking Bayley's photos and obviously didn't even recognize Ivory (I think it was?) in one of those photos - her insult was something like, "I don't even know what to say about that picture" which is just awkward in a wrestling promo. Same for Charlotte mocking Bayley's poetry by trying to read it off the Titantron and failing because the print was too small. There were just all sorts of "goofs" in there that seemed to be because the writers/producers are telling her to "wing it" and lining up props for her to use (like the pictures and the poetry) and forgetting that she's not The Rock and didn't train in Second City and improv'ing jokes is easier said than done. THEN you have Bayley coming out after what felt like an hour of getting run down on the mic. Why wait so long to come out? Just poor, poor production choice. To make matters worse, Bayley is put in same position as Charlotte essentially, asked to speak her mind for 5+ minutes via promo instead of just coming in and knocking Charlotte's block off. Still a fan of both women, but this segment deserves all the criticism in the world for its lay-out.

Just watched this for the first time and, wow, what a great piece of business this is (in the words of Steve Austin). My wife was in the room with me for this and, as she's not much of a fan, I know something is really special when even she gets drawn in by the end and is smiling as widely as I am. Tremendous entrances for both guys to set the stage and just a flat out brawl from the start. Anyone who says Flair wrestled the same match every time should be pointed to this as this is the Nature Boy almost doing an Attitude Era main event with much of the match taking place outside the ring, Funk bumping all over the place in great heel fashion, and the "wrestling" portion really kept a minimum as these two just hate eachother so much they're not even interested in winning at times. Both guys end up blading and one can't help but think about how much a match like this just wouldn't happen in today's WWE - not because there's a ban on blood but because, even in "blood feuds" like Zayn/Owens, guys can't seem to help themselves from delivering convoluted, overly choreographed high spots that Flair and Funk don't waste their time with. Great finish and all-time great post-match. Honestly, Funk wings that chair into the ring towards the end like he doesn't care that it might decapitate someone standing in the wrong place. There are just no fucks given for the last 5 minutes as the two sides just don't stop attacking eachother as JR and Caudle try to wrap up the show. It is unpredictable, wild gold that, again, the WWE seems almost completely incapable of today (though that one time when Reigns destroyed HHH for,like 10 minutes at the end of a PPV in 2015 was somewhat close). I don't know if the entire match/segment is 5 stars because the match itself, while highly entertaining, isn't necessarily a great wrestling match in terms of technicality or athleticism or even story. However, if you can get there based on character work, intensity, and heat, this one gets there. I'm thinking I'll go no lower than 4 stars on my blog. How much do you love this?

Ha. Just saw this... https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/5nv7ey/lucha_underground_reportedly_coming_to_netflix/

I have Netflix and Amazon, but would've added Hulu just for Lucha Underground. I think a small company could do decently trying to link up with one of those services. Last I read, Netflix's offer for LU was too low, but the number of eyes on their product could increase by what? 10 times at least? I know the math isn't so simple as saying LU gets 100k viewers on TV currently and Netflix has 75 million subscribers so they would automatically become the most watched wrestling in the US, but it would clearly benefit the company in terms of exposure and potential future profits through increased merchandising and potential mini-tours. I also don't see how releasing Season 1 on Netflix in 2017 and then Season 2 a year later and so on and so forth isn't just pure profit - I mean, those shows are essentially paid for already and, at a certain point, sales for these older episodes on iTunes must drop off almost entirely, right? I don't know enough about Amazon/Hulu/Netflix's dealings for current programming or how profitable LU is for the El Rey Network or any of that stuff, but some one, somewhere, in some wrestling company should be making their top priority getting episodic wrestling on one of these streaming juggernauts.