dawho5

Renegades getting the win is a nice twist. I'm sure the Bolsheviks won't be back to cause any trouble later...

I hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes sense. And pro wrestling is much more positively looked at in Japan even without the shootstyle elements as heavily involved in the mainstream wrestling style. I know we all love All Japan with the 4 Pillars, but a lot of the Japanese fans had to re-get into it after Baba and Jumbo were out of the main event picture. It wasn't a HUGE period of time, but there was a lull there. It's not like there was a ton of martial arts/shoot elements involved in AJPW during the Baba/Jumbo years.

I think it has long been admitted that Japanese wrestling is the closest in form to American pro wrestling. I thought Dylan was absolutely correct in the reasons for it. I'd say there are still cultural aspects of Japanese wrestling that a lot of fans don't get. The biggest one I've heard/seen is the more martial arts style kicks. They are either looked at as some kind of effeminate, lesser way of fighting or "cool". I think one thing that ties certain aspects of all male wrestling together is that machismo that leads to strikes being exchanged. It is way overdone in a lot of instances, but it is a common thread through all of it.

King of the Mountain was grrrreat! Luger and warrior teaming up would have been a big highlight for the fans.

I thought that your view of the final top 20 was dead on. If the only wrestling in the world was in the U.S. and Japan, yes that is a perfectly fine list. But you look at Mexico and I'll just do a hypothetical. What if el Santo lost his mask in a match? Would the Mexico City police force be enough to quell the riots? I doubt it. And you're telling me that kind of fanatical devotion to a babyface doesn't warrant a place in the top 20 wrestlers ever? I think that lucha, WoS, shootstyle and yes, even joshi are highly under-represented. I barely like joshi. Getting through a lot of matches is a massive grind for me. But if you tell me that Arn Anderson is somehow more important to wrestling as a whole than somebody like Dump, Bull and Aja (who are all very skilled workers in-ring), I'd immediately argue that is not the case. I don't have to like the style to see that. I'd even go as far as to add things like Puerto Rico and the lucharesu stuff, even if I don't care for Dragon Gate at all, to those other styles. I get not putting Invader 1 and Colon on that list. But somebody like Invader 3, Ron Starr and Chicky Starr would have made a ballot for me no question due to the work I've seen from them in PR. Maybe lower end as we don't have a crap ton of footage, but still there. Your views on All Japan surprised me. I mean, I was at one time a HUGE advocate of it as the best wrestling ever. And if you go up to 1994 I'd still agree with that. But the decline of the promotion and the way people seem to shrug off the signs of it are things I have had trouble dealing with. And I go farther than that in saying that it poisoned pro wrestling as a whole when many of the more overt aspects of it were borrowed without the more subtle parts that tied them together in a meaningful way. I'm pretty sure I get an eye roll when I say things like that from most, so it surprised me that you seemed to look at it along the same lines. So yeah, in a perfect world we do get people like Jimmy Breaks, Casas, Santo, Aja, Akira Hokuto, Devil Masami, Fujiwara, Maeda, Chicky Starr, maybe even Ultimo dragon since he did pioneer a style all his own on most of the ballots because people watched all of these different styles and recognize that even if they did not love the styles, they can see who the people are that pushed those styles to their limits and made them what they are. They really mastered the style according to the expectations the fans demanded and to me that is where a list like this should have been. What else is wrestling about?

Yeah, like I said, I agree with a lot of the points you make. And I understand that maybe your view of how things had gone informed that very heavily. I've made mistakes myself like that. That kind of post from me is never about "you guys owe us" anything. The point I really wanted to make was what you got out of it. In the end those discussions would have been nice to have. Maybe the time for them is passed and maybe the people who at the time wanted to have them have moved on. But I think there are things that can happen that put more light on the areas that GWE indicates it needs to be shined in. And maybe, here's one I didn't really account for, it's up to new posters to find that kind of thing on the board and figure out how to drive things forward. It's not always on the old "opinion-makers" I guess is the word to continue doing that. So my comments in that direction are a little off-base. I do maintain that if you and some others truly had wanted to keep PWO as something you participated in, you could have. If that was not your desire, so be it and I won't tell you that it has to happen. One thing this discussion has shown me is that I should maybe take some of my own advice.

Stud Stable moving on is the right choice, although i would have liked to see them face the Nightmares. Backlund/Sheik is a fun program for the jingoistic stuff, but they could both go when they wanted to. Looking forward to a less interference-ridden match between Taylor and Pritchard. Both are really good wrestlers and could gain a lot from a chance to just go for 10-15 minutes.

I never listened to this right away. Didn't participate in the polling largely due to not willing or able to put the time into things like joshi, WoS, lucha, etc. My opinion was that if I didn't put enough time to represent all of the different wrestling styles from around the world on my list accurately, it would be a list that I personally would find myself disagreeing with a lot as time went on. So I get your complaints about the final results. I think that if you weren't going to put in that time, at least enough to get some names somewhere on your ballot, you should not have voted. That being said, I think it's a cop-out to say all of that and refuse to discuss it on the board. I think that issue with PWO not being the same, too much MDA since the GWE project from a few months back stems from that very attitude among the people who could have made the difference. If you look at it, a vast majority of the people who drove those kinds of discussions seem to have removed themselves from anything resembling a real debate about what happened with the GWE and why. And I'm not going to tell anyone they have to have that discussion, nor will I be the one to initiate it because I did not take part. But I will absolutely tell you that, tired of even the idea of bringing it up as you may have been, you should have after a few months. Coming back a year or so later and not liking what you see is a direct result of your walking away or not saying anything. It's going to seem like I am down on you or what you have to say. But I truly think there is a lot of merit to it and it is something that should have been discussed. Maybe now is the time for that, a lot of wounds will have healed. Yes, they may open back up. But it's the god damn internet so get over it. If you want something more out of the site, make it happen. Nobody else will do that for you. I have said this kind of thing more than once and it's because PWO is the only board I would ever call home anymore. And people like you, Loss, goodhelmet, Parv, etc. all contributed to making it what it is. Maybe you didn't notice that's what you were doing when you were just talking wrestling with people you liked talking to or knew had a point. I'd hazard a guess that is something that is missed by most of the older posters who don't post much anymore. But I would also say that a mirror would be the exact place to look for the reasons why. Edit: I forgot to mention that, as surprising as it may be, my view of All Japan lines up almost 100% with Dylan. It is a subject I would be 100% open to exploring because from the end of Ditch's best of 2000s Japan poll to now it has cast a huge shadow over how I look at wrestling.

Shame that Maeda was not brought in. Fujinami vs. Maeda was a great match and for more than just Fujinami's contributions.

I'm torn on this. It's better than his heel interviews became once he went pro-Saddam. But it's an awful, awful idea to try and bullshit wrestling fans that this guy should be a babyface again so soon. Hopefully they get wise and pull the plug on this one.

I'm not a fan of deathmatches. I do, however appreciate the way they really play to the gimmick of the match from the bell and don't stop. I also appreciate how everyone in the ring sells the explosions. Onita is really good at getting people behind him when he's selling. Very good for the genre.

Two shows chock full of great matches! Ronnie Garvin is on a tear since coming to WCCW.

I don't think that pushing things to social media because you are scared to go to the police is a viable option. I get that it's going to be tough to get justice. But there is a 100% guarantee that nothing happens to the attacker if this is all you do. Social media can't put a guy away or make him stop doing this kind of thing. And yes, aiming all of that bile at somebody else (in this case an enabler) only serves to make things more murky and harder to deal with. I'm not saying there are easy answers. I just know that what did happen was the wrong way to handle it. Part of the problem with this idea of men within "the wrestling business" getting away with things like this is that it becomes this self-perpetuating issue. Nobody has done anything, so why assume they will? I'm 100% sure every time you go in with a defeatist attitude like that you're going to lose. This is said with no animosity towards the young woman. I think that in a bad situation she made a bad choice. It happens. If the things she had to (and will have to in the future if she continues to be involved) deal with are going to stop it has to start with somebody making a stand. And it's not anyone on the internet that's going to make that happen.

I appreciated Heenan doing the interview. Anything that can be done to get Beefcake to shut up is fine by me. And let's be fair, they killed Flair off before he ever got there. He was never a real threat to Hogan. So pretending that he should be treated differently once he gets to the WWF is just silly.

I thought Paul did great as well. He went into chickenshit mode really quick and made it look good. Windham and Simmons actually make a good team. Wouldn't have expected it earlier in the year at all.

You know, I'm pretty sure the Devil has to be involved with that much hairspray. Crazy brawl that kind of works for me. If there are any two guys who can pull off the wandering around the building brawl it's these two, even if that type of match does not appeal to me. Terry taking a swing at some fans right before the end was pretty nuts.

Magnum just has the Horsemen's number of late. First Tully and now Arn. Really solid card and I would guess most everybody went home with a smile on their face.

Not sure why they did this. Did it accomplish anything at all? I mean, maybe makes Luger's piledriver look dangerous, but a lot of people have taken it and not been injured so...

Hughes was way better than expected. He holds his end of the match up really well for a bodyguard. That dropkick was really really unexpected. I was surprised the crowd was as into this as they were, maybe WCW should have noticed and ran with it.

I really liked all of the 6 man matches, the UWFi and Tenryu/Hara ones the most. I was also a fan of the alternate match. Even if Yatsu seems like he's gotten himself in a rut.

Most of this has been covered, so I'll just say that the crowd was incredible here. They were really fired up and reacting big to everything. Eddie Marlin eithe rmade his face really red when he was being choked or Embry knew when the camera was going to be on him and made sure it was legit at the time. And that guitar shot was all kinds of brutal.

I agree the setting is all wrong. Why have Paul Bearer giving those goofy facial expressions in the background (great as they are) while this hyper serious threat to Hogan is materializing? Part of being a maverick (which Vince definitely is in wrestling) is stepping outside of your comfort zone when the situation demands it. It seems like Vince only truly did that when his back was up against the wall. Otherwise he had this very limited view of what could be done and what worked.

Garvin and Embry are great comedy players. Hart's team is really impressive and one that the von Erichs will have to respect. Dr. D came back to halt Bad News' momentum I guess. I like how nobody is really aligned with anyone in that segment. Iceman is kind of Bad News' friend, but there are times when Bad News would rip your head off for mentioning it. And it didn't look like Dr. D and Ronnie were on the same page either. So many possibilities.

I will agree that focusing on the lower card guys is a good idea. It makes everything feel important, not just those top few rivalries. Ole's promo stood out for me as exactly the kind of thing he would have said. You've got him down for sure. Nightmares, Fullers, Billy Travis, Missing Link, Tom Pritchard, you have so many great, great midcard guys around that it's hard NOT to focus on them once in a while.

Before I go on to details I want to say that your presentation of the WWF is really great. It takes all of the fun things about the WWF of the time and uses them. But it also fixes a lot of the shit aspects of it. No 20 minute draws between guys nobody wanted to see anyway to fill time. You find ways to put guys out there who have things going on, which is huge. Prime Time is a huge success. And given the way Lutte and MACW have been performing the WWF would have had to step up their game to keep their status. Hansen vs. Hogan is easily one of Hogan's best matchups ever, looking forward to it. Fernandez turning would have made the Heenan family into probably my favorite stable that doesn't involve the number 4 ever.