ohtani's jacket

So are you saying your girlfriend watched Daddy vs. Haystacks in '81 or that she knows it from Noel Edmund's House Party and the Generation Game? The bout may be famous but that doesn't make it important. What is so important about Big Daddy vs. Giant Haystacks?

I doubt you'd find that many people these days that remember a match from '81. Old-time fans don't remember it with any fondness. It killed the territory and was shit. People may remember Big Daddy and his entrance but I bet the majority of those remember Big Daddy from his post-81 years much like I first saw Hogan after he'd wrestled Andre. Anyway, it's not the most important match in British wrestling history. Let's bury that.

For Japan, the All Japan Woman's Pro Wrestling Championship all-star shows on 9/10/55 and 9/11/55 were important and on 1/4/56 and 1/5/56 too. The Japan Woman's Pro Wrestling Association's first show on 4/29/67 was important too, and Moolah's tour from 3/2 to 4/2 of '68. Matsunaga breaking away and forming All Japan Women's Pro-Wrestling in June of that year was even more influential. All Japan's first TV show on Fuji TV on 12/1/68 drew a massive 18.9% rating and was another key moment. The first AJW show at Budokan deserves a mention too -- 11/1/77 headlined by a 60 minute Jackie Sato vs. Maki Ueda match. 1981 saw a passing of the torch with three title changes on the 2/25 show. Jaguar beat Jackie Sato for the WWWA title, Nancy Kumi & Ayumi Hori beat Mami Kumano & Devil Masami for the WWWA tag team titles and Mimi Hagiwara beat Yumi Ikeshita for the All Pacific title. That was a huge deal at the time. Dump Matsumoto's retirement was significant in terms of the impact it had on business. You can probably point to some match where the style began predominantly go-go-go, too.

#280 This was all right. I'm not exactly predisposed towards liking this match. I mean you'd have to be a pretty big All Japan fan to care about what these four workers could do in a midcard match, and to be honest I thought there were better matches earlier in the list that were positioned the same, like the Blondes vs. Scorpio & Bagwell or Kikihara & Sakuraba vs. Lydick & Nelson.

I think you need to make a distinction between trios matches and trios groups. Of course there were trios matches before the Misioneros, and even trios groups. La Ola Blanca spring to mind as a famous rudo trio that existed prior to the Misioneros. But if you look at the history of Golden Age lucha, tag teams were far more prevalent than trios groups. Even La Ola Blanca were primarily a tag team. The Misioneros were responsible for an explosion of trio groups. They may, or may not, be responsible for trios wrestling becoming the standard match type in Mexico but it's hard to imagine that there would have been so many copy-cat groups had they not been red hot. Not only that, but they broke the barriers down for lighter wrestlers main eventing. How much the Misioneros' run means now is interesting. Trios wrestling may still be the predominant form of wrestling in Mexico, but the number of trios groups has dramatically reduced from the mid-80s and you'd be hard pressed to argue that there's an influential trio group in Mexico today. The Misioneros certainly changed the landscape as tag title belts are nowhere near as important or prestigious as they were in the 40s-60s (when there were no sanctioned trios belts.)

Speaking of Inoki, the match where he beat Gotch in '72 drew a huge rating and was the reason why NJPW was given a prime time slot on Friday nights. He had a number of other important fights too -- the interpromotional match with Strong Kobayashi, the shoot angle with Tiger Jeet Singh, his MMA bout with Ruska, which drew a huge TV rating, then in the early 80s the promotion vs. promotion angle with IWE.

Where there's smoke there's fire. She was tough to work with and wasn't the most popular woman within Joshi puroresu.

As for lucha, I recommend reading these two articles by Matt Farmer: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/10/08/the-importance-of-lucha-libre-in-september-part-one/ http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/10/28/the-importance-of-lucha-libre-in-september-part-two/

If I were a podcast guy, I think I would have a show about whether this match killed the territory. The two matches that old time British fans always talk about are the Kendo Nagasaki vs. Count Bartelli mask vs. mask match and the White Angel vs. Doctor Death mask match. People probably don't think of British wrestling when they think mask matches but Bartelli had worn his for 20 year when Nagasaki unmasked him and Doctor Death was a massive draw. Neither of these matches drew huge crowds by US or Japanese standards but the number of people who claimed they were there has grown exponentially over the years. The McManus vs. Pallo Cup Final Day match from '62 is another major match in British wrestling history and drew a huge television rating. People often talk about the night Prince Philip was at the Royal Albert Hall but that was more for his appearance than any particular match. If you're going to include Daddy vs. Haystacks then you should also include Daddy vs. Quinn from Wembley. I'm pretty sure Bert Assirati had some big matches back in the day. I know of one famous one against The French Angel Maurice Tillet. If we're talking about important matches then the success of the first TV show ought to carry some weight. The matches on that show were Francis St. Clair Gregory vs. Mike Marino and Cliff Beaumont vs.Bert Royal. The peak of the TV success was an episode in 1965 that drew 7.3 million viewers. The matches were Roy Bull Davis vs. Billy Howes and Johnny Eagle vs. Ken Cadman. Not the most famous pair of matches in British wrestling history but possibly the most watched.

#279 Volk is pretty to watch even when it's just him dismantling an opponent. Not sure how this got so high considering it was little more than a squash, but it was fun to watch.

#276 This is totally new to me. Oya didn't look like much of a wrestler. That was a surprise to me at first. His matwork was a bit awkward, but it was gritty enough to keep me interested. The heat segment on Hayabusa in this match was incredibly long. It reached the point that I kind of admired how belligerent Oya was being. Hayabusa's offense in his first comeback was ridiculous. His second comeback was much better. It was a layered comeback that made Loss' praise seem warranted. In fact, it's hard to disagree with the notion that the stretch run was as good as anything outside of All Japan. The Osaka crowd ate it up in a big way and made it seem like a star making performance from Hayabusa. Pretty good match once you distill what's going on.

Volador Jr. vs. Cavernario, NWA World Historic Welterweight Championship, CMLL 10/7/16 Well, it was obvious watching this that CMLL title matches are no longer mat-based classics but generic singles matches, and that lucha is more influenced by outside influences than ever before. That said, I still enjoyed this. What I liked about it was that the rudo, Cavernario, had the momentum for most of the bout. and the tecnico, Volador Jr, had to keep fighting back even after he'd squared things up. Not only were the dives crazy, it also felt like they were right on cue. There's nothing quite as pretty in lucha as a dive that happens exactly when it ought to. You're into the flow of the match, the timing is right for the dive, and off they go. Of course, it helps that Cavernario is mental. He takes some of the nuttiest bumps in the history of lucha. It's like Psicosis turned up to 11. I don't watch a lot of Volador Jr., so I found a lot of his offense novel. I could see how it would wear thin if he does it in every match, and I wasn't sure how much of it was the way Cavernario took the bump, but that sunset flip thing he does where it looks like he piledrives the guy was a hell of a punctuation mark to end a fall. The shit they did on the set sucked, but that's one of those things where as soon as one guy does it, everybody has to do it, and they're constantly having to up the ante. It seemed WWE influenced to me. There was nothing authentically "lucha" about it, but they wiped the bad taste of my mouth pretty quickly, and overall I have mostly positive things to say about this.

#287 I'd been wanting to see Al Snow but hadn't been able to find any of his stuff so far. He looks like he stole Rick "The Model" Martel's kit bag! The early part of the match was filled with all sorts of US staples. There were plenty of leapfrogs and criss-cross spots, armdrags and hiptosses. There was even a fireman's carry and a backslide. It almost felt old-fashioned in a way. Solid, but not as exciting as watching Crockett workers do it during the Kip Frey era of WCW, for example. I thought Snow hiding under the ring was stupid and the payoff made it pointless. After that, he tried to up the stakes a bit with state-of-the-art offense like the powerbomb and a release german, but Jannetty didn't have the arsenal to match him. The finishing stretch was okay, but I never got the feeling I was watching anything special. My feelings were encapsulated by the finish -- "he held onto the tights. Is that it??" Afterwards, one of the commentators mentioned off-camera that it was a hell of a match and that it was a shame that the crowd weren't into it more, but I think they were a bit too caught up in the old-school psychology of working the arm, wearing your man down and thinking two or three moves ahead to notice that Snow and Jannetty hadn't done enough to get the crowd invested. Not at a time when the bar was being constantly raised by the 90s workrate heroes. Snow seemed like a solid worker, but that "Sensational" Rick Martel shtick barely played its way into the match once the bell had rung and I think that was a big shortcoming since Jannetty wasn't really the most charismatic of dudes even in his Rockers days. . So, a bit disappointing, but we'll see if anymore Al Snow makes the list.

What does WOTD stand for? Wrestler of the decade?

Mile Zrno vs. Mad Bull Buster (Vienna, 8/10/93) Here's something a bit different -- Zrno in a chain match. The match was all right but could have used some blood. Rip Rogers weighs in with some comments: "I was there in Germany at this time -buster was one of the pit bills from the USA - he died of a drug overdose a few years later. Mille didn't like to sell and always wanted to get his shit in / Fit Finlay would eat him up !!!" Some Mile Zrno criticism, how about that? What do you make of that, Jetlag? A match like this doesn't really play to Zrno's strengths, but could he have sold more?

Next up was an Ilio DiPablo marathon of sorts. It's basically Ilio kicking ass and taking names in the Buffalo territory. There's some fun stuff against the Miller Brothers, Dan and Ed, that I believe sets up the Bill Miller match that was discussed earlier in the thread (or possibly another match between them.) Marvel as Ilio puts big Man Mountain Cannon in his airplane spin and watch 'im knock "em dead as he out slugs ex-prize fighter. Killer Joe Christie. See, I'm getting into the spirit of the some of the corny voice over commentary on these 50s shorts. Like the Lou Klein vs. Gene Dubuque bout where the commentator tells more jokes than a stand-up comic. Don't let it get in the way of a solid look at both men, though, especially Dubuque, who went on to become The Magnificent Maurice. Klein would later team up with Red Bastien in a successful run as half-brothers. Also in this batch of the footage was a look at an early all-in tornado tag team match. I'm glad wrestling shifted away from this sort of tag wrestling as it was pretty much organized mayhem. Lastly, was my first ever look at Mildred Burke in her prime from the Lipstick and Dynamite short. The match that's shown is Mildred Burke vs. Mae Weston from 3/20/47; a nice mix of brawling and technical wrestling. Burke has the most incredible physique of any female wrestler I've seen. There's your legit women's champ right there. Worth watching if you've never seen Burke. Definitely the real deal.

#289 This was so far removed from what I like BattlARTS that it may as well have been worked in a New Japan ring. But Ikeda is still a great wrestler and entertaining to watch even when he veers into juniors territory. Otsuka's a guy I've always thought had more holes in his game than swiss cheese and sure enough he was awkward in this. I can see how others liked it, but even if you prefer hybrid shoot style to, I dunno, Kohsaka vs. Tamura, they didn't really knock one out of the park here. I'm not a huge fan of their '97 match but it feels substantially better. BattlARTS seemed at a crossroads here stylistically. It's interesting that the same thing befell ARSION. I guess my beloved shoot style never was that sustainable.

#288 A cheese grater? A table on fire? Probably my least favourite type of wrestling imaginable. At least they didn't claim it was a wrestling match. .

Yeah, that was a $1 million gate.

Off the top of my head, I think you would have to consider Medico Asesino vs. Gardenia Davis from 1952 because of the crowd it drew at Plaza de Toro (45,000+) And Cien Caras vs. Konnan from Triplemania I, which still holds the record for the biggest crowd in lucha history. I'm not sure how famous either of those matches are, though.

I wouldn't say you were being too liberal giving Eddie/JBL that rating, especially if you were to mount an impassioned argument for it. But if people weren't really agreeing with you then it would be hard for me to see it as a five star match. I used to argue that Bret vs. Owen from SummerSlam '94 was a five star match, which fell mostly on deaf ears. Every now and again there would be a person who'd agree with me, but many people considered it the least deserving match to ever be awarded five stars in the Wrestling Observer. So, I know what it's like to be on the other side of the fence. Somewhere along the way I gave up and accepted that five star matches are what people say they are and acknowledge them as such. I've never rated a Tanahashi/Okada match five stars. but in this era a lot of their matches get rated five stars similar to Misawa vs. Kobashi and Misawa vs. Kawada in the 90s and I can accept the consensus rule. Just as I can respect that Eddie/JBL is a five star match for you personally. I suppose you could say I've divorced my feelings from the entire process.

#290 This wasn't vintage shoot style but it was still a hard-fought contest. Anjoh honestly seems better suited to pro-style. It's not that he's a bad grappler per se. He's just nowhere near as slick as the best shoot style workers and can be cumbersome at times. More to the point, it's his pro-style screaming and hollering that makes this click. Sano looked good here, but never scaled the heights of PWFG in his UWF-i run, and his dry retching noises were gross! Wouldn't put this as high as Tamura/Yamazaki, which still leads the way for UWF-i matches on the list, IMO.

The best place to search for older views on Joshi Puroresu is Mike Lorefice's site. On Hokuto vs. Kandori: "Must see. Arguably the best women's singles match ever and the best example of a wrestler making a match an all-time classic on their own." "No female was ever better than the 1993 version of Hokuto, and you could make a strong case that no male was either. She was the real total package – psychology, selling, drama, intensity, ability to elevate any opponent, work, charisma, etc. She could have found a way to have an excellent match with Kandori, who rarely if ever had excellent matches, because Hokuto was just that good at this time." "Kandori deserves credit for her selling as well. With Kandori, everything comes down to her respect for her opponent. If you are a nobody, you’ll be treated as such, but if you are also a star she’ll find ways to put you over. She might not necessarily sell often, but her selling instills into the audience the feeling of an accomplishment on her opponent’s part. Kandori isn’t the world’s greatest actor, but she always remembered to stay down long enough, and didn’t pull that sudden rejuvenation stemming from the opportunity to do a move crap we get from Super Koji and friends." "This allowed Kandori to be on offense most of the match, which she believes is her divine right anyway." And that's just one match.

This is exactly why you share star ratings, to encourage people. Why else do we say anything on here. This is my point about the grammar of a star rating having this weird undercurrent of objectivity that just falls apart the moment you recognize there are lots of ways to have great matches and there are lots of valid perspectives on wrestling (NOT that EVERY perspective is created equal, but that there is more than one way to skin a cat). How is telling people its the greatest thing you have ever seen and giving it five to implicitly encourage someone to check it out substantially different. The only real difference is if we treat star ratings as something more objective than they even are in practice or debate. Meltzer's rating of Okada/Omega is indeed a perfect example. People take Meltzer's ratings way too seriously and him giving that match 6 ruined the watching experience for a lot of people and has sparked a disproportionate amount of conversation. It is precisely because people treat the star rating as something it isn't and can't be. I simply vouch for ratings as a way of quantifying ones own standards and analysis. My point isn't that standards should be thrown out the window, but rather that standards should be carefully considered, outlined, and subsequently considered when reading ratings. My point has always been that people should rate matches responsibly, but they shouldn't hold back on giving something 5 or 4 or whatever because it isn't conventional wisdom. At the same time they shouldn't ape everyone who throws five at something just because they throw five. Your ratings should mean something first and foremost to you if you do them. Not something sentimental, but they should have some purpose if you are going to bother doing them. The most important thing remains the relationship between your justification and your rating; you should be able to analyze why you think something is 5 and then let someone else decide. I agree with what you're saying here, but let's pretend there's match that is generally considered five stars -- like Ms-1 vs. Sangre Chicana, for argument's sake. And I come along and I want to say that Tony Salazar vs. Herodes is also five stars. It doesn't matter what I write about Salazar.Herodes or how true it is; people are going to watch that match and think: "well, that wasn't five stars. What was he thinking?" I'd gain much more traction if I said, "here's a four star lucha match" or "here's a great match from the 80s." For starters it's more realistic, and if people really like it they're going to boost the star rating up anyway. As soon as you say it's five stars, people have MS-1/Chicana in the back of their minds. It's extremely difficult to escape the baggage of star ratings. They've been around for nearly four decades now, and if you're from my generation, you were raised to believe that a five star match was the pinnacle of wrestling. That's why I don't think **** is substantially the same as saying something is great. Saying something is the greatest thing you've ever seen can be more readily taken as a personal statement, but as soon as you affix those star ratings you create something that is meant to be as good, or better, than the best matches the viewer has seen. It would have to be a pretty tight knit community for folks to think, "oh, that's one of Jimmy Redman's five star matches or that's one of those matches Parv rated five stars" as though star ratings are merely personal reflections of each person's viewing habits. As for taking Meltzer's star ratings seriously, I don't have a problem with people taking them seriously as I don't have a problem with people taking Ebert seriously or Robert Christgau. I don't see what's wrong with taking star ratings seriously. I don't RYM ratings seriously, as well as All Movie Guide; why should wrestling be any different just because it's wrestling?