El-P

Hair is overrated.

I have no idea why Bruce has such a hard-on for the Kane character. His insistance on defending everything about the awful fire match at Unforgiven was really baffling. He seems really serious about it. It's funny going through all these old shows though, as the more you think of it, the more Taker's career seems marred by truly awful matches, gimmicks and angles, which is something the Mania Streak kinda helped brush off quite a bit.

Probably not, indeed.

Why would they ? They established a style which was based on escalation (as opposed to excess, really, although one could argue that at some point the escalation reached the excess point). They had no reason to limit themselves since the whole style was about pushing the limits of what it took to keep the other guy down. I just watched Misawa vs Kobashi from 2003 and to me it's the apex (and probably the breaking point) of a style. It is wonderful and it's not simply about doing big spots, there are shitloads of details there. But that doesn't mean Kobashi, for instance, could only work that way. Following the Misawa match, Kobashi got the best match ever out of Tamon Honda but working around his own style (and limitations). Then he worked against Chono, who was washed up beyond belief and still managed to get a Tokyo Dome spectacle out of him (not a great match, because Chono simply wasn't able to, but a good match that made sense, mostly). Neither of these two matches were build around excess, although very clearly rooted in Kobashi's style, and found a way to include his signature bumps (aka headropping) too. Taue's style "grounded" the other three ? Sure. But would have Taue's limitations worked that well against inferior opponents ? Would he have been (an active) part of so many all-time cassics if not surrounded by three of the all-time greats ? Most probably not. And I love Taue and think he was a terrific worker. The merit of Taue to me is not "working within his limitations", on the contrary, when you look at the guy and what he was actually physically doing, he clearly pushed his own limitations to reach for the other three. From there he established his own awkward looking yet awe inspiring at times style. Taue maybe the the greatest overachiever ever.

Look at all those married mofos going "my wife this my wife that". Take a risk will ya ? What do you really think ? Yeah, The Rock is legit handsome. But what about the work ? You mean the boob job ?

You cracked me up. That's so right ! Those hair !

Yeah Martel was a good looking guy. Yes, he was a model. Steamboat & Rich look gross here (which says a lot about a single pic, because Steamboat was quite an handsome man once he got off with the porn stache)

By this point, Chono is Mr. Puroresu and he's a legend. And he's also washed up. Like, really washed up. So, what does Kenta Kobashi do to make this match at the Tokyo Dome as compelling as it can be without compromising himself (that is, without making himself look like a completely washed up guy can actually take him down) ? First : work the first part of the match like Dory Funk Jr. would. Stretch job reversals, work a solid headlock spot that is part of your repertoire anyway; stuff that Chono can do and can eat up some minutes building the tension while doing not so much in term of spots and physicality (which Chono can't do). Second : find a cool transition for the washed up guy to do : Chono actually reverses a powerbomb doing doing some ugly hurricanrana on the ramp. Third : find a way to give your opponent some kind of offense that looks like it affects you to some degree. This is where Kobashi has to go overboard, as Chono's backrop just look weak as fuck. So Kob litteraly does a bunch of twists with his body to throw himself on his head, of sorts. Which, yeah, is goofy, but is right out of Ric Flair "please back body drop me / please throw me off the tope rope / please reverse my figure four" playbook. Because really, apart from no-selling a few chops, Chono has nothing he can do to make himself look slightly menacing. Four : sell the STF spot like it's really hurting you and could end the match....eventually. Nobody's gonna buy it, but give it your best. Five : since there's no way anyone actually thinks Chono can takes you down, to make it a Tokyo Dome spectacle, make it about how Chono is too washed up, too weak but shows a bit too much heart so you drop him on his head several times. They know he ain't coming back up. Be a dick, kinda. And then Tenzan is almost wanting to throw the towel because everyone understand you're murdering the guy now. Have Chono kinda, almost, try to do a delayed no sell on the latest head-drop, but actually barely making it to his knees before beheading (well, not really considering the tired bumps Chono takes) the guy. That's the final drama time. Not a bunch of stupid trading nearfalls that would make no sense. Something that makes sense, that doesn't need the audience to think you can actually loose (which they would not anyway), but still feels big. So yeah. That's NOAH Ace Kobashi vs washed up dream match worker Masa Chono. It's a good match, all things considered (meaning : considering Chono had really almost nothing left and looked like a relic from a removed era). Kobashi was a great, great pro-wrestler.

Come on, that's old school heat. Back in Mid South, they were getting death threats every of those days when they would sell out 8 days a week, ya know... Yeah. Not smart. My jaw dropped when they actually did it, as I suggested Daivari would be the mega-heel in jest earlier in the day.

Yes, that's overlooked because people just don't to give Jarrett era TNA any credit, but Gail was a terrific valet in the spirit of Sherri, with modern spots worked in. Honestly, yeah, I haven't seen her in any role where she wasn't at least very good yet.

I guess late 90's when they wouldn't give Kawada the ultimate nod, yes, but I'm really not the right guy for this. Where's JDW when we need him ?

About looks, I just made a specific topic because it can be an interesting (and fun) topic on its own : http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/41878-the-pro-wrestling-curve-of-attractiveness/ (so to not clog the weekly thread too)

So. There. I mean, Ric Flair ? Really ? Have at it.

She's probably much prettier IRL actually. Well, I'd say she's hot, as opposed to pretty, and again, I do think this comes from the fact she's playing the petite bitch heel role to a T and sexiness is part of the whole act. So, maybe she isn't actually that pretty, I have no idea, but she comes off that way thanks to her character her performance (as opposed to, yes, Torrie Wilson who's been mentionned earlier, whose body always looked smoking hot but also came off completely devoid of any character). I'd draw a parallel to Angelina Love, as I'm deep in TNA 2008 right now, whose actually not *that* pretty by "common" standards, but her characterization makes her attractiveness go way up (no pun intended). A lot of it is relative (and cultural too) and the way you present yourself (and not just physically) goes a long way. BTW, I'm going way off topic but... was Ric Flair a *good looking guy* ? I mean, Arn & Tully were ugly mofos, that's a given.

I think there's a misconception about AJ 90's "slow-burn" booking that comes from the fact people are binge watching that stuff now decades after the fact, which of course wasn't meant to be and gives a skewed perspective on the perception of it. The fact is that slow-burn booking was doing great business for a long time. That was Baba's magic touch.

Very obviously. I mean, his take on workers is that Shawn & Ric are the greatest wrestler ever and every other quality worker is "one of the most underrated wrestler ever". I also find the whole "I own that belt/robe" pretty offputting to be honest. Ok, you own stuff. You gives a fuck ? The issue with the Schiavone podcast is now that Conrad got Bischoff, he's got no point even trying to get any knowledge out of Tony. I really enjoyed Tony's crass sense of humour when it was happening organically in the middle of giving overviews on WCW. Comedy watch-along where half of the show is basically not addressing the issue, I have no time for. I'll probably wait until there's a show I'm really intrigued about to get back to it.

Agreed. Thirded. (although the trend is on most big matches going way longer than they really should, self-conscious epic syndrome)

First of all : ah, yeah, the good old days of DVDVR when every "odd" choice was obviously much better than the "canon" great workers. Fun times. Well, not really, it was laughable indeed and snobbish as hell. The 00's... Anyway, this is a great match and this is indeed the Kobashi show. Not in the way Kobashi carries a mediocre worker by doing his shit. Not at all. Honda brings plenty to the table. But Kobashi makes everything Honda brings to the table and makes it mean more with his selling, with the way he builds the match toward himself getting vulnerable against a guy who, on paper, has exactly zero chance of winning. Honda has the performance of his life there too, but it's Kobashi's selling and way of working transitions (again, something that has been totally overlooked with times, the cliché of Kobashi being reduced to "headropping galore and siff shots") that make the most out of everything Honda brings. Slowly but surely, it ends up with legit nearfalls and drama, through a way full of neat stuff (Honda's amateur offense bring a whole different aspect and they really work wonders around this element). You gotta applaud Misawa's booking too in the early days of NOAH to condition the fans that really anything was possible (Jun making himself and Kobashi tap out or Ogawa winning the title) which probably helped too. But come on, Chono was right there waiting in line, Honda had no chance in hell of winning. And yet, you believe he does. great performance by Kobashi and yes, great performance by Honda, who's a quite interesting worker (if Brock Lesnar could take notes…). Terrific first title defense. Borderline MOTYC level.

Well, there is that too. Anyone knows where this guy came from BTW ? I know he had a podcast with Flair or something, but his whole "I'm just a wrestling fan" gimmick is quite tiresome when you figure he's super connected to the point of actually marrying one of Flair's daughter now (if I get everything right). I know he's in the mortgage business (which is pretty fucking low in the totem pole of acceptable human activity to me tbh (no offense to anyone on the board who would be involved in that too )), but how did he get involved in pro-wrestling podcasting anyway ?

Well, Hollywood ain't the real world either. But yeah, honestly, Randy Orton, with all the shitty tattoos, kinda looks likes some of the douchebags who do Survivor type TV shows. In all honesty, all the girls we're talking about aren't that special looking either. Some are really cute girls (although butchered by the makeup department), but plenty of them are just on the more normaly attractive side of the spectrum, really. Which is a good thing. The days of the lingerie models is over, thankfully. Alexa Bliss looks plays a part, but the fact is she's just really good at being a bitch heel. Personnality also plays a huge part into perception of attractiveness (not to state the obvious, but the same works IRL, I mean, look at Foley's wife for instance).

Somewhere, Kevin Nash feels like an innovator.

It plays a factor, but it's not enough. Who had the hottest body, Sensationnal Sherri or Stacy Keibler ? Yet, who you'd rather watch working the valet part ? And it's the same thing for the guys. Remember in the 80's those blowjob tag teams. I mean, Ricky Morton & Robert Gibs…. wait… ok, that was probably because of the South... But yeah, of course it plays a factor. Why do you think studd looking Randy Orton in short underwears got pushed and got so much reactions for so long ? His fabulous and compelling in-ring work ? His amazing charisma ? His mind-blowing promo ability ? And who can forget this one ? And I must say, although very much straight, I understand the feeling, girl...

I remember exactly the same thing. He was white shoes.

The Apex of the old AJ style. The best passing of the torch match ever. Misawa's eye for little details is just amazing. Forget the headropping (which is overstated to a point, some of those huge suplexes look actually quite safe in that the body is doing a full twist without the head being compressed at all, or the bump clearly being took on the shoulders before folding the neck), what made the style was the selling of those huge spots (which of course, is a thing that has been completely lost by the indies just cosplaying the big spots), the sense of escalation, the incredible dynamic those guys established over the years (the argument of "they always worked against the same opponents" is really poorly thought out to me, it's like criticizing Sonic Youth for never switching band members and playing funk or something). Kobashi is awesome, but I thought this match really was about Misawa looking like the greatest pro-wrestler ever one last time. All time classic. MOTD. *****

Really enjoying the latest posts on the issue. Tons of very interesting stuff, right on the point too.