Matt D

I guess the simple answer to that question is: some other match. If there's no planned match that looks like a real title match for SD, maybe they should have planned different matches. This is a curious phenomenon we get now since Meltzer gets pretty much the whole Mania card by the end of January. People like us know what the matches are before they're even hinted at on TV, so we see them as a fait accompli and just end up kind of questioning the build to those matches or their card placement, rather than questioning why we're having the matches themselves. We don't allow ourselves to criticise the card itself too much because hey, we've known how it was going to be for ages! What are you gonna do eh? If your planning leads you to AJ Styles having the year he had and carrying the title he did only to be nowhere near the title picture at Mania, feuding with a non-wrestler GM, while Orton and Bray fight over the title in the middle of a cartoon supernatural feud and Cena is in a midcard mixed tag angle based around Total Divas...something went wrong somewhere. A different match entirely, is the answer. It's also years and years of lowered expectations. Modern Wrestlemania is a burden that we have to endure as fans.

In general, it's very cool to have these Gold Cup matches. I'm trying to think of an equivalent, but it's hard because it's so regional. It'd be as if Wrestlemania XX happened, we never really heard much about it, and we're seeing it for the first time years later. Something like that. That's the thing with this footage. There really is no equivalent. You can't just randomly drop the idea of "Oh, here's a three night series of shows to celebrate 50 years in wrestling" like it's nothing. There's so much weight and prestige behind that. 50 years is a huge thing. I'm really curious how the last night worked. We've seen results of Tito winning a battle royal and Tito beating Bock. The way Boesch explained it, the battle royal was a seeding one. The first two people out wrestled each other and so on. He keep stressing the idea that there'd be one man standing in the end, so I'm still trying to figure out if that means that the winners went on to face each other or not? It seems like that'd be a really long night of wrestling if that was the case. Quick thoughts on a couple of matches: Tully vs Graham was fine. Graham worked hard. Tully kept it interesting. For a twenty minute draw, it moved at a good pace. Graham was talented. He's just so naturally unlikable that it's hard to root for him as a babyface. At least Greg Gagne (who was also talented but unlikable) always had Brunzell with him. Atlas vs Lewin had its problems (heel Lewin's karate chop offense is the worst thing, just the worst. I actually kind of like it as goofy babyface offense though), but it was an amazing way to get over a new babyface in the territory. Atlas looked like a million bucks in there and so much of that was Lewin.

I found Ramos really interesting. He obviously didn't have much left in the tank, but he used his mass in pretty novel ways. He was mainly using it as a shield to do things so the ref couldn't see them. Past that, he utilized the visual inconsistency of someone so big basically operating with chickenshit tactics instead of controlling the match like a bully. It's some of the stuff John Studd would do as well (and get no credit for) and I half wonder if Studd learned it from Ramos when he was working in Houston as Captain USA. The problem here was that Caras is the wrong opponent for that. Someone like Terry Funk (or maybe even Tiger Conway, Jr. from what we've seen of him) might have been able to make a whole match out of the act. Caras needs someone who can either base for him or go with him and Ramos, at this stage of his career, just wasn't either. I'm really curious if Ramos worked this way when he was younger and didn't blow up quite so thoroughly, because that could have made for a really unique wrestler.

Maybe Foley can bring in Maria Menounos to face her?

The Lucas match was interesting. I got a kick out of Boesch calling him "dependable" as the very first thing, because you knew how important that was to him.What was most striking was just how much of the match Lucas took as the babyface. Some of the headscissors stuff was good and fairly elaborate, working and out through spots, but then it moved on to him being on top with a headlock and so on and so forth. Grenade, combustible as he may have been, barely got anything in the match. Meanwhile, while Lucas was sound and working hard, I wouldn't say he was particularly memorable, so if both wrestlers came out looking better in the Ivan/Tiger match, as Pete indicated, I'm not sure anyone really came out of this one looking all that great. The kids running to the rail to celebrate the win enjoyed it though, so there's that at least, right? This is the sort of match which could theoretically turn me negatively on a wrestler, but only if I saw him do it a number of times, and also keeping the context of the card in mind. This was the opening match on the card, as best as I can tell, with the Tiger/Ivan match following it. If they flipped the two it would have worked better I think.

I can't sleep and I've got a telework day tomorrow so I'm playing some catch up: Kiniski vs Patton: Kiniski was just on fire here. I've seen very little of young Kiniski but I can't imagine he worked like this twenty years earlier. He just threw himself into everything for eight minutes or so. This was old man go-go-go, with chops and mares and endless geriatric aggression. Patton would get his chops in with a shot to the throat or by yanking him down from the outside, but in general, he was game to feed and feed and feed. I would have loved to see ten minutes of Kiniski vs Gino from right around here. As it was, this was a lot of fun. More on the Gold Cup after I find the strength to watch a 20 minute Mike Graham match. Some things seem to stand out. Tiger vs Ivan: Boesch summed it up perfectly, not with "Some people don't admit they're terrible," to describe Ivan, but with "Listen to the rising crescendo." That was the match, which was hardly ambitious but really solid as the sort of undercard match that gets the crowd into the show, that lets Boesch talk about some upcoming talent and read off the birthdays. Conway had the fans on every hold he worked his way out of, struggling and waving them along to cheer. They were more than happy to do so. He was over enough and talented enough that in another territory (if he could recapture what he had with the local connection here) he could have held a secondary belt or been the guy to put over whoever was going to face the travelling champ, that sort of role. Ivan kept on top with cheapshots and eyerakes (leading Boesch to comment, in his imitable fashion how that could make you gunshy and hesitant to come in). Conway would come back with his athleticism and his punches and due to the unbreakable head, having his share of flourishes to stand out, and would finally get just enough distance to hit the flying headbutt off the top on a rising Ivan. Ivan's a meat and potatoes wrestler but there's nothing wrong with that. Matches like this aren't main events, but they make the wrestling world go round.

Big Show vs Mayweather might be the single greatest Mania performance.

I think the belief is that Dave's influence is so massive among hardcore wrestling fans that his star ratings will either turn them on or turn them off to watching or caring about lucha libre, and I don't disagree. And if you are like me, when you see something great and appreciate it, you want others to see it and appreciate it, because at your core, you like seeing other people experience joy and happiness, especially when it's for the same reason you experienced joy and happiness. And when you see something awesome that no one has talked about, after you get past the initial reaction of, "Wow, it's awesome that we discovered this", there is a little disappointment that the performers were not celebrated for the greatness of the match when it actually happened, a process that Dave has more or less controlled for nearly 40 years. But anyway, it's not so much about one guy having a divergent opinion as much as it is about the weight that opinion carries. When people like the things we like, it's a nice reminder that we aren't alone in this world, it gives us a sense of community and it fulfills the human need to connect with other human beings, using professional wrestling as a medium to do so. I think that's generally true of any hobby with a social component. I think the bigger issue has always been that he missed the mark on about half of the things that made lucha great.

This was terribly good. I've seen my share of Satomura over the years but never enough to really stick. I have a general sense of her but couldn't give you too many specifics. I have less of that for Shirai, who I've heard the hype for and maybe have seen a match or two but I don't even have the general sense. The opening matwork was tremendous, with such natural and organic progression from one hold to the next, both women really bringing it. They mixed quick strikes, blocks, and reversals in with more struggle-based holds. The bit where Shirai finally got a crab after being in one herself was very novel, as she locked in the crab, had to settle for a half crab once Satomura started struggling, and then cinched up the Texas Cloverleaf after that all in the most smooth yet believable way that you see with the best lucha maestro matwork. I hadn't expected Shirai to take the brunt of the match so viciously (let's face it, she's the one who came in with the cutesy mask and Satomura was all business; after the fact I figured out she was booked as a monster who had already beaten Satomura once, but coming in, I had no idea) but it really worked so well. She came in prepared for Satomura's kicks and suplexes and was able to cut both off in interesting fashion, utilizing dragon whips, and the best leg-grab-through-her own-legs-and-right-into-the-nastiest-hold counter to a German. I liked that she waited so long to target the leg too, because she was able to own that control segment, creating the impression that instead of taking the most opportunistic route, she really wanted to make a point, utilizing brutal foot choking, landing numerous knees (some of them set up in a contrived way that worked because of how quickly she managed it and how much impact she was able to hit it with. When she did something contrived, she made it seem like it would actually work better than the simple version, which is far rarer than you'd think), and stubbornly going back to her moonsault to the floor when it almost cost her in the first attempt. Satomura only got back into the match after a long choke, one that within the confines of the match, worked well. You had the sense, through the sharp contrast to what came before and through Shirai's selling, that she really lost her wind through it. You don't usually see that. It was great because by this point in the match, it was established that Satomura wasn't going to be able to come back with kicks and suplexes alone. Even then, once Shirai was able to shake it off, there was still the sense that she was the more dominant one in the match. Satomura really had to fight back. There were a lot of bombs towards the end but between the effort in hitting them (and the struggle and desperation to block them), the selling, physical and emotional, and just enough space being put between them, I picked up a sufficient sense of escalation and weight. I think ultimately that's what was most striking to me. I'm used to watching these quite good Charlotte matches where we remark on them making sure to sell in a key moment or which have a certain sharp transition, or maybe a spotlight little touch like repeated punches to the leg in a submission, something like that. You get the sense that those bits are carefully planned and choreographed. They're satisfying because they're still somewhat rare in WWE in general and in WWE's women's matches over the decades in particular, but here there seems to be something like that in every exchange, not as anything spotlight but just as the commonplace norm that comes from wrestlers having mastery of their craft. I am always very hesitant to judge a match when I don't have proper context. I haven't seen much Shirai. I don't remember much Satomura. I certainly didn't see their match from the previous December. So, I'm not necessarily going to say HOW good this was, but I'm quite confident in saying that it WAS good.

I can't imagine that rolling the dice on another twelve months is a good idea for Reigns (I can imagine they'll do it). Summerslam feels a lot more reasonable. So much of the problem with what they did a couple of years ago was not having him beat Rollins by Summerslam (if not earlier). Reigns had enough momentum after the Brock match (which worked, in real time, exactly how they wanted it to) to chase for a little while, but the key word there was little. I don't think Rollins stealing it was a bad thing, necessarily, but the key to that was Reigns beating him decisively in short order afterwards. Instead we got months and months of HHH, Jr. until Rollins ended up injured and there was never payoff (and it was too late by then anyway). They can't manage a year long story if they can't book more than a few weeks in advance at any point. The problem with Mania this year is that putting Reigns over Taker will piss off this crowd and they don't have a result that'll make people happy in the end. The crowd will be split on Goldberg vs Brock. No one cares THAT much about Randy Orton. AJ vs Shane will be split. Owens vs Jericho isn't high enough up the card (and even then, probably split). They don't have a match on this card where anyone actually cares about a winner. I think it's a much more interesting card than last year, but it's a disaster from that point of view.

Not to look into the bird in the bush but a 20 minute Bock/Wahoo draw sounds awesome. I can't even imagine Gino vs the Sheik either. Really looking forward to watching the Kiniski match later. I doubled back and caught the Dundee/Mantel vs Fantastics match by the way and the first 2/3rds of it was insanely action packed. Even the holds seemed frenetic. Moreover, at times there was a sense of danger due to the pole itself that I don't think you see often. There were times where a Fantastic was teetering off of it and it felt dangerous in the same way a cage or scaffold match might. I thought the straight up tag rules made it a little weird (usually you see this sort of thing with texas tornado rules) but it was very enjoyable.

I firmly believe that wrestlers and fighters have roughly the same goals when it comes to the categories they're voted on together: best on interviews, biggest draw, most charismatic. There are separate awards for Fighter/Wrestler of the year, most outstanding and best match because when they step into the ring/cage they have totally different jobs. The job they have outside of that are largely very similar. Would a fighter really play a character in the middle of a fight? Charisma is a performance tool for wrestlers telling a story in the ring as well. It's not just on promos.

If they stuck to the Brock plan, it could have worked. He was getting over in front of the toughest crowd in the world in that match. Then came Rollins and the case.

Phoenix basically had what, a five year run? Plus OVW. I'm really curious about the logic. Is it that she's still in good shape and isn't as old as Ivory/Molly/Terri/etc so she's more photogenic for press releases or what not? Did Edge push for it? Is it a way to troll people who want Chyna in? It almost has to be the last one, right? Because a lot of the arguments for Beth (as few as they are) are a lesser version of the Chyna arguments (which aren't so great to begin with). Now they can say they don't need to put Chyna in because they had someone who did similar things.

No I get that, and it's tough trying to fit everyone onto Mania, but it's about priorities. The top male wrestlers WILL get top singles matches/title matches/showcase matches at Mania. It's when you get down to the midcard or leftover guys where they'll get thrown into a random undercard match or the battle royal to get them on the show. Jobbers will struggle to make it on. But the top female wrestlers WILL get thrown into their random undercard matches to get them on the show. Everyone below them misses out. The women have kind of made it from the absolute bottom of that Midcard/Throw Them On Somewhere tier to the top of it. That's progress I guess. But they're still ways away from cracking the top tier. They flirted with it by having them main event a B PPV and Raw and stuff (and again I'm not complaining about that kind of progress) but when you get to Mania you see where their REAL priorities lie. And at Mania the clock strikes midnight and the women have to go back into their box. We need the time for the real stars. Like, the fact that the women have come so far in the last 12 months kind of makes it worse. During the year they can main event PPVs and TV and have 30 minute title matches and stuff. They've shown that they have the workers and the popularity to do it. But they won't even consider building two separate women's issues for Mania. They won't even consider building to some epic, 30 minute title match like the men get. The best they can do is shoehorn them into the same lone title match spot that they always get. But this time, they'll get 15 minutes to work instead of 3. Again, I don't disagree, but I think there's such a lack of basic competence that it's hard to hone in too much. It's basically saying "Your house is on fire. Also, all the windows are broken." If they were doing a bunch of things right and this was one that was wrong, then, sure, but this is just another cup of water in the bucket of gross card management incompetence. When's the last time they booked a successful, meaningful tag team championship feud at Mania? When's the last time there was a singles match for a secondary title that really mattered in your Savage vs Steamboat/Shawn vs Razor (or even Rock vs Shamrock/Savage vs Steele) sort of way? At the very least, you could argue that the women last year were one of the biggest matches on the card. Their faces were up there with Shane/Taker and Reigns/HHH. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Mania is not the best indicator of this sort of thing because it's so broken to begin with across the board.

You're right, of course, but card management is a big problem in general. Is Zayn going to get a singles match? Is Joe? Is Braun? Is Harper? We did just have a Smackdown PPV with 3 women's matches, right? Mania's tough because all of the bullshit. They've never figured out a way around it. I think, personally, I'd much rather have a Wrestlemania VII with a lot of fun little showcase matches than a bunch of 25 minute "epics." I know I'm not in the majority though.

I would like to make a motion that we ignore the WON Awards this year. Do I have a second?

I wish we had more 70s comedy Van Buyten.

Rollins has really good cardio.

It's like Sid in ECW (as it pertains to fan mentality, not in that the situations are comparable otherwise). Fans will pop for a surprise.

Awesome fifteen minutes of pro wrestling!

I've been hoping that Duggan vs Dusty match would pop up. The energy of 82 heel Duggan has been one of my favorite things on the service. Looking forward to it.

Actually, let me come down even more harshly. The issue with Fuji in specific isn't just the cartoon or stereotype nature, but (and this is even more true as his run went on) instead the fact that he was basically the only Japanese sort of character/influence WWF had. There was a massive fetishization of Japanese wrestling and here was Fuji, far more effective in his role than he got credit for, basically (past the JBA) the only taste of that Dave could get in the biggest company that he covered. And he was the exact opposite of everything he wanted. Of course he was going to be negative about him and miss the positives. They were exactly opposed to what he valued.

I wonder if the issue isn't that one move is wholly symbolic while the other is actually dangerous. I think the correct answer (and I haven't seen the match) is that it's different when a monster survives a killshot than even a main event wrestler.

Looks like I have this wrong. I had been confused. Things had not been drawing well AROUND this time but this card itself did well. I still hope we get that cage match at some point. Anyway, Re: Fuji. I think he was very effective, quite frankly. He was the best WWF manager for ringside interference of the era. There was a credibility to him for being a former tag champion, the fact he had a weapon that was easier to use in an actual match than a megaphone for instance (the cane could hook a leg, be a whack on the floor, or just be tossed in to his charges), and there was a certain credibility to the idea that he loved pain that worked with his stable. As a kid, he resonated due to the Karate Kid angle. The idea of an evil Mr. Miyagi was awesome and they sort of lucked into it. The problem, so as I see it, was this: He embarrassed Dave, who always wanted more realism and sport in wrestling at the detriment to so many of the things that actually make pro wrestling great. He was a cartoon character but a very effective one. Dave just hated cartoons.