Matt D

Not to look into the bird in the bush but a 20 minute Bock/Wahoo draw sounds awesome. I can't even imagine Gino vs the Sheik either. Really looking forward to watching the Kiniski match later. I doubled back and caught the Dundee/Mantel vs Fantastics match by the way and the first 2/3rds of it was insanely action packed. Even the holds seemed frenetic. Moreover, at times there was a sense of danger due to the pole itself that I don't think you see often. There were times where a Fantastic was teetering off of it and it felt dangerous in the same way a cage or scaffold match might. I thought the straight up tag rules made it a little weird (usually you see this sort of thing with texas tornado rules) but it was very enjoyable.

I firmly believe that wrestlers and fighters have roughly the same goals when it comes to the categories they're voted on together: best on interviews, biggest draw, most charismatic. There are separate awards for Fighter/Wrestler of the year, most outstanding and best match because when they step into the ring/cage they have totally different jobs. The job they have outside of that are largely very similar. Would a fighter really play a character in the middle of a fight? Charisma is a performance tool for wrestlers telling a story in the ring as well. It's not just on promos.

If they stuck to the Brock plan, it could have worked. He was getting over in front of the toughest crowd in the world in that match. Then came Rollins and the case.

Phoenix basically had what, a five year run? Plus OVW. I'm really curious about the logic. Is it that she's still in good shape and isn't as old as Ivory/Molly/Terri/etc so she's more photogenic for press releases or what not? Did Edge push for it? Is it a way to troll people who want Chyna in? It almost has to be the last one, right? Because a lot of the arguments for Beth (as few as they are) are a lesser version of the Chyna arguments (which aren't so great to begin with). Now they can say they don't need to put Chyna in because they had someone who did similar things.

No I get that, and it's tough trying to fit everyone onto Mania, but it's about priorities. The top male wrestlers WILL get top singles matches/title matches/showcase matches at Mania. It's when you get down to the midcard or leftover guys where they'll get thrown into a random undercard match or the battle royal to get them on the show. Jobbers will struggle to make it on. But the top female wrestlers WILL get thrown into their random undercard matches to get them on the show. Everyone below them misses out. The women have kind of made it from the absolute bottom of that Midcard/Throw Them On Somewhere tier to the top of it. That's progress I guess. But they're still ways away from cracking the top tier. They flirted with it by having them main event a B PPV and Raw and stuff (and again I'm not complaining about that kind of progress) but when you get to Mania you see where their REAL priorities lie. And at Mania the clock strikes midnight and the women have to go back into their box. We need the time for the real stars. Like, the fact that the women have come so far in the last 12 months kind of makes it worse. During the year they can main event PPVs and TV and have 30 minute title matches and stuff. They've shown that they have the workers and the popularity to do it. But they won't even consider building two separate women's issues for Mania. They won't even consider building to some epic, 30 minute title match like the men get. The best they can do is shoehorn them into the same lone title match spot that they always get. But this time, they'll get 15 minutes to work instead of 3. Again, I don't disagree, but I think there's such a lack of basic competence that it's hard to hone in too much. It's basically saying "Your house is on fire. Also, all the windows are broken." If they were doing a bunch of things right and this was one that was wrong, then, sure, but this is just another cup of water in the bucket of gross card management incompetence. When's the last time they booked a successful, meaningful tag team championship feud at Mania? When's the last time there was a singles match for a secondary title that really mattered in your Savage vs Steamboat/Shawn vs Razor (or even Rock vs Shamrock/Savage vs Steele) sort of way? At the very least, you could argue that the women last year were one of the biggest matches on the card. Their faces were up there with Shane/Taker and Reigns/HHH. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Mania is not the best indicator of this sort of thing because it's so broken to begin with across the board.

You're right, of course, but card management is a big problem in general. Is Zayn going to get a singles match? Is Joe? Is Braun? Is Harper? We did just have a Smackdown PPV with 3 women's matches, right? Mania's tough because all of the bullshit. They've never figured out a way around it. I think, personally, I'd much rather have a Wrestlemania VII with a lot of fun little showcase matches than a bunch of 25 minute "epics." I know I'm not in the majority though.

I would like to make a motion that we ignore the WON Awards this year. Do I have a second?

I wish we had more 70s comedy Van Buyten.

Rollins has really good cardio.

It's like Sid in ECW (as it pertains to fan mentality, not in that the situations are comparable otherwise). Fans will pop for a surprise.

Awesome fifteen minutes of pro wrestling!

I've been hoping that Duggan vs Dusty match would pop up. The energy of 82 heel Duggan has been one of my favorite things on the service. Looking forward to it.

Actually, let me come down even more harshly. The issue with Fuji in specific isn't just the cartoon or stereotype nature, but (and this is even more true as his run went on) instead the fact that he was basically the only Japanese sort of character/influence WWF had. There was a massive fetishization of Japanese wrestling and here was Fuji, far more effective in his role than he got credit for, basically (past the JBA) the only taste of that Dave could get in the biggest company that he covered. And he was the exact opposite of everything he wanted. Of course he was going to be negative about him and miss the positives. They were exactly opposed to what he valued.

I wonder if the issue isn't that one move is wholly symbolic while the other is actually dangerous. I think the correct answer (and I haven't seen the match) is that it's different when a monster survives a killshot than even a main event wrestler.

Looks like I have this wrong. I had been confused. Things had not been drawing well AROUND this time but this card itself did well. I still hope we get that cage match at some point. Anyway, Re: Fuji. I think he was very effective, quite frankly. He was the best WWF manager for ringside interference of the era. There was a credibility to him for being a former tag champion, the fact he had a weapon that was easier to use in an actual match than a megaphone for instance (the cane could hook a leg, be a whack on the floor, or just be tossed in to his charges), and there was a certain credibility to the idea that he loved pain that worked with his stable. As a kid, he resonated due to the Karate Kid angle. The idea of an evil Mr. Miyagi was awesome and they sort of lucked into it. The problem, so as I see it, was this: He embarrassed Dave, who always wanted more realism and sport in wrestling at the detriment to so many of the things that actually make pro wrestling great. He was a cartoon character but a very effective one. Dave just hated cartoons.

Rocky's sure learned his lesson from being booed for supporting Roman.

I absolutely loved the Mil/Manny vs Dynamic Duo match. I'm higher on it than Pete, certainly, even though I know he liked it. I think this is probably the best example yet at just how good Gino was in 1981. You take the basic premise of the match, that he had wronged Mil over time, that he was afraid of him despite all of his boasts, that he was going to try to hide behind Tully and capitalize on every advantage they could manage, despite the two refs, and then you take his natural skill, charisma and sheer dedication and you get a truly special performance. It was so good I wanted to timestamp every little thing he does in the match. That was sort of a ridiculous chore, but I do want to highlight a couple of things. First, look at his headlock segment early on with Manny. It was perfect in its understanding of exactly how he should be bumping and stooging. He eats a dropkick in it, for instance, but understands that the way he should bump for it, in this moment early in the match, was to be stunned and surprised, bouncing back up and right into the headlock takeover again. It was a functional slap so early on. Then look at the ending of that, when Manny makes the tag to Mil. First he struggles to get away, scared. Then when Manny just lets him go, at Mil's instruction, he looks over to him, exasperated, totally unsure why the heck he's getting out of the ring and just leaving him with Mil. Then he puts his hands over his ears to try to block out the excited crowd. Finally, he backsteps with his hands up just far enough to allow him to turn tail and run to Tully and the tag. Then on the apron, he puts his hands over his ears again. It was perfect to draw the crowd in, to portray a series of emotions that showed how invested Gino was, to get Mil over as a massive threat without even taking one bump for him yet. This goes on and on. Tully works Mil to the corner. That means that Gino's excited to come in, to work his way around for the double team. Mil immediately turns it into a double noggin-knocker though, and Gino staggers back, holding his head. He eats the flying headbutt off the ropes immediately there after and sells by bouncing up and tagging Tully in one astoundingly cowardly movement. They show him rolling to the floor after that, looking relieved to be out of the ring. Next time he gets tagged in, Mil tags out to Manny (he'd already done a double headlock takeover/headscissors to the Duo as Gino ran in to feed the spot). Gino immediately points to Mil on the apron demanding he tags back in. When he does (and Manny knows how to milk that moment), Gino immediately runs for the hills as the crowd goes nuts. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Gino finally does take over with a cheapshot knee (And Boesch is great in his moralizing), and the desperation in being in control against a star like Mil is just what you want. He hits a move and goes for a pin but the second Mil kicks out, Gino's dashing across the ring to make the tag. Then he dashes back to elbow him in the back of the head to hold him in place until Tully can get there. That level of urgency imparts weight and importance to everything that happens. Again, if Gino cares THAT much, the crowd is going to care too. So a hot tag happens and Manny cleans house, hitting first a giant knee drop off the ropes and then the flying forearm. If this was a two out of three falls match, it'd be a pin, but instead it's both a near-fall and a transition, as Tully rushes in to break the pinfall. Manny immediately goes after Tully, who had retreated back to the apron and this lets Gino get a knee to the back in. After he tags out, he sells the damage by slumping over the turnbuckle on the apron. Tully does a lot of the actual working over of Manny (with a nice butterfly suplex and neckbreaker), with Gino feeding for the hope spots (including a giant sunset flip). His big contribution here is some cheapshots on the floor and then running away from Mil's attempt at a save to huge reaction from the crowd. When Manny finally makes the hot tag after a sort of northern lights set up into a belly to belly which could easily work as a finisher today, Gino's reaction is (again) perfect. He recoils as if he was hit, spinning around and backing into the corner in fear, eating a flurry of headlocked fists as the crowd is constantly screaming. The heels cheat to win and celebrate, drawing heat even as Manny tries to run them off. All of this makes the impassioned Mil promo in Spanish all the better and all of this sets up the Mexican Death Match between the Duo and Mil/Dos Caras two weeks later. Just an amazing, chickenshit, heatseeking performance by Gino.

I absolutely loved the Mil/Manny vs Dynamic Duo match. I'm higher on it than Pete, certainly, even though I know he liked it. I think this is probably the best example yet at just how good Gino was in 1981. You take the basic premise of the match, that he had wronged Mil over time, that he was afraid of him despite all of his boasts, that he was going to try to hide behind Tully and capitalize on every advantage they could manage, despite the two refs, and then you take his natural skill, charisma and sheer dedication and you get a truly special performance. It was so good I wanted to timestamp every little thing he does in the match. That was sort of a ridiculous chore, but I do want to highlight a couple of things. First, look at his headlock segment early on with Manny. It was perfect in its understanding of exactly how he should be bumping and stooging. He eats a dropkick in it, for instance, but understands that the way he should bump for it, in this moment early in the match, was to be stunned and surprised, bouncing back up and right into the headlock takeover again. It was a functional slap so early on. Then look at the ending of that, when Manny makes the tag to Mil. First he struggles to get away, scared. Then when Manny just lets him go, at Mil's instruction, he looks over to him, exasperated, totally unsure why the heck he's getting out of the ring and just leaving him with Mil. Then he puts his hands over his ears to try to block out the excited crowd. Finally, he backsteps with his hands up just far enough to allow him to turn tail and run to Tully and the tag. Then on the apron, he puts his hands over his ears again. It was perfect to draw the crowd in, to portray a series of emotions that showed how invested Gino was, to get Mil over as a massive threat without even taking one bump for him yet. This goes on and on. Tully works Mil to the corner. That means that Gino's excited to come in, to work his way around for the double team. Mil immediately turns it into a double noggin-knocker though, and Gino staggers back, holding his head. He eats the flying headbutt off the ropes immediately there after and sells by bouncing up and tagging Tully in one astoundingly cowardly movement. They show him rolling to the floor after that, looking relieved to be out of the ring. Next time he gets tagged in, Mil tags out to Manny (he'd already done a double headlock takeover/headscissors to the Duo as Gino ran in to feed the spot). Gino immediately points to Mil on the apron demanding he tags back in. When he does (and Manny knows how to milk that moment), Gino immediately runs for the hills as the crowd goes nuts. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Gino finally does take over with a cheapshot knee (And Boesch is great in his moralizing), and the desperation in being in control against a star like Mil is just what you want. He hits a move and goes for a pin but the second Mil kicks out, Gino's dashing across the ring to make the tag. Then he dashes back to elbow him in the back of the head to hold him in place until Tully can get there. That level of urgency imparts weight and importance to everything that happens. Again, if Gino cares THAT much, the crowd is going to care too. So a hot tag happens and Manny cleans house, hitting first a giant knee drop off the ropes and then the flying forearm. If this was a two out of three falls match, it'd be a pin, but instead it's both a near-fall and a transition, as Tully rushes in to break the pinfall. Manny immediately goes after Tully, who had retreated back to the apron and this lets Gino get a knee to the back in. After he tags out, he sells the damage by slumping over the turnbuckle on the apron. Tully does a lot of the actual working over of Manny (with a nice butterfly suplex and neckbreaker), with Gino feeding for the hope spots (including a giant sunset flip). His big contribution here is some cheapshots on the floor and then running away from Mil's attempt at a save to huge reaction from the crowd. When Manny finally makes the hot tag after a sort of northern lights set up into a belly to belly which could easily work as a finisher today, Gino's reaction is (again) perfect. He recoils as if he was hit, spinning around and backing into the corner in fear, eating a flurry of headlocked fists as the crowd is constantly screaming. The heels cheat to win and celebrate, drawing heat even as Manny tries to run them off. All of this makes the impassioned Mil promo in Spanish all the better and all of this sets up the Mexican Death Match between the Duo and Mil/Dos Caras two weeks later. Just an amazing, chickenshit, heatseeking performance by Gino. I'll comment on the JYD/Tiger match later, but what was immediately cool about it was that it was just one week later and it's far, far more of a Tully performance than a Gino performance and just as good in many ways.

Thanks Nick. One of my favorite things about the service is that it feels that we're able to, almost from just the text of the matches alone, get a sense of the history of the Houston territory. Looking forward to those Dynamic Duo tags. That September 25 card (only a few days off from when I was born) seems stacked: Patton vs Pritchard Robley vs Duncum A JYD vs Gino singles to set up the tag Brass Knuckles: Patera vs Manny Southwest Title: Wahoo vs Slater (Do we even have a Wahoo vs Slater match on tape?) Bock vs Brody on top for the AWA title

Leon vs Bugsy wasn't so bad. I thought Bugsy had pretty interesting power offense and good mannerisms. Leon had some interesting stuff when it came to counters and shine. Total mismatch though and it died with the holds. I'd like to see Leon against different opponents. Casey vs Gino was very good. It felt like a really solid TV studio match down to the non-finish and set up for future matches. Ivan vs Ramos was brutal. Would Ramos vs Crusher Blackwell have been fun in this era or what? I liked the opening exchanges actually. They were going at it well, but then it died a horrible death with the babyface Putski chinlock. I can't even imagine what the Bockwinkel match from 81 between them will look like. Putski's cardio is astoundingly bad. Nick or anyone else: is the 1/2/81 card the first with the Southwest talent? If you look at the last card in 80, there's not a lot of overlap and Lewin and some other 1980 mainstays are gone moving forward. This was the first time Tully and Casey were there in a few years, etc. If you're going to do a big booking change, it makes sense to do it at the start of a new year and with Andre on the card to get people in the building to see it.

I'm weirdly excited to get the two Koloff vs Mascaras Houston matches at some point.

Yep. Pete's spot on. There are moments in this that were a lot of fun but Savage was such a waste in 95-6. He might have the worst formula in wrestling history that year, while, at the same time, probably feeling like he was very giving. I felt like I wasted fifteen minutes when I was done with it.

I'm almost caught up on BtS. This is from the 1/30/95 Observer: "The match reminded me of a very good opening match in Tijuana where you'd see a lot of great high spots, but the psychology was limited and the brawling looked bad in spots (***). It's a lot better watching guys with weaknesses work their butts off then to see guys stalling and shortcutting through a match." I kind of hate it so much.

Charlotte is winning at the PPV. Sasha is turning on her. MAYBE they break the PPV streak at Mania but I doubt it.

Man I hope Wyatt wins with some crazy gut shot. They've done a great job setting up Styles as vulnerable there at least since the giant Cena cross body. Edit: Or they can have him be delayed on the forearm because he's screwing with his gloves. You know, whatever.