JerryvonKramer Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 I see, sorry the idea that number of moves in the arsenal = good is so late 90s that it didn't register that it would even have to be a point that is made any more. I guess I was thinking of guys like Ricky Morton say or even Flair who don't have *amazing* offense. But it is not held against them. But my question is answered. Edge is a guy I associate with the 00s WWE main event style that I hate so much, so I guess it matters that his spear sucked. Or maybe it's the perfect finisher if you're going to work in 38 near falls and false finishes. I liked him during the period he was taking photos, he was funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 Fair enough then. I think there's still a point to be made that it didn't stop the spear from being really over as a finisher and didn't really give Edge any credibility issues broadly speaking. It's something that gets brought up on the internet all the time, and yet had no real consequence in the real world I don't think. Of course it's a perfectly valid point to bring up regarding someone's personal opinion about him as a worker. Maybe it's just me because as I've said before, I'm not someone who really cares about shitty movesets as a rule. I know I never gave a single thought to his moves looking weak until I read about it on the internet. It's not something that concerns me. Edge stayed over once Lita got him over as a main event heel. Yes he had Vickie after and yes I have my serious doubts that he would have ever heated up or stayed as hot without the ladies (he never seemed the same when he was on his own in terms of drawing heat and interest as a heel), but there is no question that he was a star of some note. I don't think Edge's offense was any good, but it was the ridiculous overacting that bothered me far more Oh totally. Believe me I am not someone to make apologies for Edge as I was utterly bored of him throughout his main event run and always found him overrated. And I agree that he sustained his heat through his pairings with Lita and Vickie, although to be fair he held his end up a lot better with Lita than later on with Vickie, where it seemed that she had most of the heat herself. He was also the worst fucking babyface ever during the Kane feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 I see, sorry the idea that number of moves in the arsenal = good is so late 90s that it didn't register that it would even have to be a point that is made any more. I guess I was thinking of guys like Ricky Morton say or even Flair who don't have *amazing* offense. But it is not held against them. But my question is answered. Edge is a guy I associate with the 00s WWE main event style that I hate so much, so I guess it matters that his spear sucked. Or maybe it's the perfect finisher if you're going to work in 38 near falls and false finishes. I liked him during the period he was taking photos, he was funny. Flair's stuff looks pretty damn good, usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 I'm not going disagree Matt. But those *spit* on the Bret side of the argument brought it up. I think his offense is underrated if anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 I don't know why Jerry is still so bent out of shape about the Flair/Bret thread that he has to bring it up in threads that have nothing to do with either guy. If it bothers him that much, he should probably seek counseling. Anyway, can someone point me to specific Edge matches that showcase his lousy offense? I haven't watched any Edge matches in a while, and his offense never made an impression on me one way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 "Big match feel" is something that matters less to me than almost any other factor, but it's something I think has always been important to Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 Its not for everyone. I'm a pretty big sucker for it as well. Sometimes I'd rather do without it as I might get more out of other matches which, absent the context, stakes and background that contribute to that "big match" thing, offer something special in their own right. But it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes I need to give a damn going into it. But I'm definitely a tad envious of not having it count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 I think Edge suffers from not having "Big match" appeal. His stuntman matches and gimmick matches had it. His world title runs... Not so much. I saw a Kane-Edge world title dark match live and the crowd was so unenthusiastic about the match. I saw a Cena-Swagger match in the same setting and the match felt important. Even his Mania matches didn't really have the big time feel. We can ramble about self-conscious epics but even if Edge was booked in one, it never came across as important. I don't think people lived and died with each move Edge did in a regular match. When falling off a ladder, sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 I thought Edge was solid at working underneath as a babyface during the Smackdown six era. He was clearly the worst guy in those matches except when Angle was in his "get my shit in" mood which developed during that period. He was nothing terribly special but I thought he looked fine in several of those matches of which I've watched in the last year. After his return from injury, he started to really go down hill starting with the heel turn. His facial expressions and acting is quite possibly the worst I've ever seen from a performer of any kind. It was a total buzzkill for me. As far as his in ring work goes it was middling at best and embarassingly dreadful at worst. His offense was horrific and my God the Spear was abysmal. I will say that he got over gimmick matches really well and generally created some nice build into those matches. Looking back and watching a few of them though it's clear to me that the Hardy's, Christian, Cena, and even the Dudley's were more engaging in those matches than he was. Christian was vastly superior to Edge in those TLC matches. I guess he was better than D-Von in them but I don't know I remember D-Von taking a few dangerous bumps that were more memorable and scary than anything Edge did in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 Man, I thought Christian actively sucked pre return and thought Edge was head and shoulders above him in the team and feud. I hated Christian in TNA and it wasn't until his ECW run where I thought he finally got it. Maybe a revisit will change my mind but it hadn't when I was working on the Attitude set. I think the biggest problem with Edge's spear is that he was following Rhino and Goodberg.... Two Guys who looked like they had pushed their opponents rib cage into their lungs. He doesn't have the impact or the size to execute the move convincingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 5, 2013 Report Share Posted September 5, 2013 Totally disagree with Will here. Christian was always good, though in a more Brad Armstrong-y way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted September 5, 2013 Report Share Posted September 5, 2013 I honestly couldn't tell you whether or not Christian was clearly the best in regular tag settings during the time but as I said before I found him to be much better than Edge in those ladder matches. His bumping was off the charts in those matches including taking a Bubba Bomb off a ladder and consistently taking fifteen-twenty foot drops to the floor on the outside from the top of a ladder which is an absurd bump to take. I remember Edge's spear on Jeff Hardy in mid-air and that's about it. Christian also took most of the table bumps for his team too in those matches. I actually liked Christian fine in TNA. Yeah, TNA has pretty much been a terrible promotion from the beginning but I always thought he was solid there and had good matches with Jarrett, Styles, and Kazarian of all people. I give him credit for his run there because he remained consistently solid throughout in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 5, 2013 Report Share Posted September 5, 2013 Christian is a guy I really wouldn't mind revisiting because I have been such a fan the last few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted September 5, 2013 Report Share Posted September 5, 2013 In 2004, I remember going to a house show and being really impressed with Christian as a singles worker and what he did with Shelton Benjamin. Lots of shtick, big bumps and fun stuff involving Tomko as his second. Christian made him feel like a great babyface in that match. One sequence by Christian was awesome -- he stole a fans sombrero (which got a lot of heat), Benjamin chased after him to get it back, Benjamin did a little dance once got it back and then he gave the fan his sombrero back, which got a nice pop. I remember the finish being clever but I don't remember the details too clearly. Before that, I remember Christian having good singles work that I liked with Jericho, DDP and Low Ki. There's probably some other good stuff that I don't remember too well. I've only seen one match of his TNA run, which was the world title win against Jeff Jarrett. I disliked the match because of the typical TNA-booking (Montreal-narrative *eye roll*). But yeah, when he went to ECW, he went to another level at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted September 5, 2013 Report Share Posted September 5, 2013 Christian was definitely good in that 2003-05 period where he was CLB Christian. The team with Jericho was good, the whole Jericho/Trish angle was great, he was pretty good at that IC Title level after that, then he had that wacky Cena feud that went nowhere in 2005, and was gone by the end of the year. But he was consistently good during that period and deserved more than he got. I've only seen bits and pieces of his TNA run, I think he was solid there in the ring at least, but without looking all that great, and of course booking was a killer. I think it is pretty inarguable that he stepped it up big time when he came back in 2009 and that this run has easily been his best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Captain Charisma of 2004/2005 was superb. One of the only legit WWE exits that has ever shocked me. Considering the Smackdown roster was pretty thin in late 2006, he probably would have faired well sticking around for a bit, but it all worked out well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Christian probably could have been elevated into Jericho's spot had he stuck around at that point, although Jericho had fallen down the card until his last show too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 Weren't Christian and Jericho pretty much in the same spot during that period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 I still think Jericho was slightly higher on the card, or else that Vengeance match that was originally set up as Cena vs Christian one-on-one would have stayed that way. Right or wrong, I think they added Jericho to that match because of a lack of faith in Christian to carry a world title match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 6, 2013 Report Share Posted September 6, 2013 There was definitely a sense that Christian was finally getting elevated though, and I think everyone thought that when he got drafted to Smackdown it'd be his moment to break out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted September 7, 2013 Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 Weren't Christian and Jericho pretty much in the same spot during that period? In the period at large, yes. In mid to late 2005, Jericho basically replaced Christian in the Cena feud and went out after a WWE Title match, while Christian got moved to the Smackdown midcard before his release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted September 7, 2013 Report Share Posted September 7, 2013 Seriously, Edge is a terrible wrestler. Usually, in cases like Michaels or Angle or whoever, you can at least see where Dave is coming from because there are things those guys do well. But Edge? Overuses a spear that doesn't even look that good, has the types of facial expressions that are so exaggerated that they are embarrassing around non-fans, not really good at selling a beatdown ... that doesn't even get into his promos. Edge is probably the very worst promo guy who is considered good. He's had a few good matches against the right people -- but even then, it's just been a few. THANK YOU! I was complaining about just those issues to somebody else a while back. To me, Edge's pathetic hammy facial expressions and terrible promos made me taking him seriously impossible, but I had never heard anybody else say the same thing. I was starting to think it was just me. I know I should have cheered for the hometown boy who made it big, but I could never see the big deal with Edge. I liked his stuff with Foley, but that was more down to Foley than Edge. Other than that? Pffft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I was out of the loop for a lot of Edge's main event run, but coming back in 2008 - I thought he was excellent. Great promo, great character, and he was consistently delivering in the main events with Undertaker, HHH, and Hardy. Seriously - which of his 2008 main events weren't good to great? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I was out of the loop for a lot of Edge's main event run, but coming back in 2008 - I thought he was excellent. Great promo, great character, and he was consistently delivering in the main events with Undertaker, HHH, and Hardy. Seriously - which of his 2008 main events weren't good to great? Run down the list of his matches. I can't remember the stuff off hand, but I remember the Mania match with Taker being okay and mainly notable for Lil Charles sprinting to the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 Only Edge vs. Taker and Edge vs. HHH vs. Jeff Hardy from Armageddon made it on to my 2008 MOTYCs set. These are his 2008 PPV matches... Edge vs. Rey Mysterio (Royal Rumble) Edge vs. Rey Mysterio (No Way Out) Edge vs. Undertaker (Wrestlemania) Edge vs. Undertaker (Backlash) Edge vs. Undertaker (Judgment Day) Edge vs. Undertaker (TLC) (One Night Stand) Edge vs. Batista (Night of Champions) Edge vs. HHH (Great American Bash) Edge vs. Undertaker (Hell in A Cell) (Summerslam) Edge vs. Vladimir Kozlov vs. HHH (No DQ) (Survivor Series) Edge vs. HHH vs. Jeff Hardy (Armageddon) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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