Chris Jericho's new book

[goodhelmet]

Based off conversations I have had with Loss, I ordered the Kindle version today... only to find out it won't download until next week

[Dylan Waco]

To be fair the book is a Strict on Sale and actually should not be shipping out early.

[Victator]

What does he say about Ralphus?

 

 

With Bulldog/Rock I think they thought they were getting the British Bulldog who left in 97. By 99 the back injury had finished him. Never seen any wrestler that visibly in pain just walking to the ring.

[Loss]

There's nothing to say about Ralphus. This book is solely his WWE run from 1999-2005. He covers Ralphus in the first book.

[Victator]

Oh yeah sorry.

[Bob Morris]

I can understand where both sides are coming from, but I think one thing that absolutely needs to be considered is that Vince Russo's booking wasn't helping a lot of guys in the company. His booking was a big reason why there was such a lack of good heels, as fans weren't into Undertaker during the Ministry of Darkness period, HHH doing his worked shoot "my time" gimmick and Billy Gunn doing anything in particular. That Chris Jericho would get strong reactios is not surprising.

 

I think any sort of threat Jericho posed to HHH had more to do with the fact that Jericho got over quickly whereas HHH, despite being pushed strongly, generated crowd indifference until the wedding angle and subsequent Steph heel turn. Like I said, though, part of that can be blamed on booking as nobody was going to get the worked shoot gimmick that HHH had over with fans that don't care what went on behind the scenes.

 

On one hand, Jericho was similar to Vader in that both made huge splashes in their first couple of WWF apperances. But when compared to Vader, Jericho had much more long-term success. I think part of that is Vader's style just wasn't suited for WWF/E to begin with, and his tendency to work stiff was what helped get him over as a monster in WCW in first place. Jericho, on the other hand, learned to adapt, just as he did everywhere else he went. Whether you are a fan of a certain style or not, you can't just take the same style you like working with you wherever you go, because every promotion does things differently.

[El-P]

I think any sort of threat Jericho posed to HHH had more to do with the fact that Jericho got over quickly whereas HHH, despite being pushed strongly, generated crowd indifference until the wedding angle and subsequent Steph heel turn.

And why would that be ? Maybe because Jericho had the charisma and mic skills (not to mention in-ring skills) that HHH didn't have despite being shoved down WWF fans throat for years, and years to come afterward. Did the Russo booking helped HHH in 1999, probably not, with the idiotic WM 15 multiple turns which confused the fans. But still, at this point HHH was pushed for a good 2 years and a half, winning most of his feud, getting tons of mic time and matches on PPV. Like John said it took Vince, Foley, Rock and Steph to finally push his ass to a level where the fans accepted him as a top guy. At some point, when the company puts everything behinds you, you're gonna get over no matter what, to a degree. Jericho was getting over from the get go because he had *it*, while HHH never did and never has, no matter how hard Ross would put him over in the booth as this huge star and great wrestler (I don't think I've ever heard a face announcer praise a heel so much).

[El-P]

Whether you are a fan of a certain style or not, you can't just take the same style you like working with you wherever you go, because every promotion does things differently.

Did Benoit really changed his style that much in the WWF except slowing down like he did with DDP in WCW and doing shitty german suplexes ?

[Loss]

Whether you are a fan of a certain style or not, you can't just take the same style you like working with you wherever you go, because every promotion does things differently.

Did Benoit really changed his style that much in the WWF except slowing down like he did with DDP in WCW and doing shitty german suplexes ?

 

Benoit very noticeably changed his style in the WWF. It was far more patterned. He didn't really slow down though. He did less, but the match pacing was faster. In fact, I'd say most of the guys near the top picked up the pace when he came in. But he eliminated a lot of stuff. And Jericho was good, but he was no Benoit.

[El-P]

Benoit very noticeably changed his style in the WWF. It was far more patterned.

Which is another thing I hate about WWE.

 

He didn't really slow down though.

Yeah, that wasn't what I meant exactly. I meant he kept things simpler.

 

He did less, but the match pacing was faster. In fact, I'd say most of the guys near the top picked up the pace when he came in.

Less selling ? I ask because although I've seen most of Benoit's big matches from 2000/2001, my viewing of the next years is really scattered to a few matches there and there.

 

But he eliminated a lot of stuff.

That's what I meant. Which, well, sucked.

 

And Jericho was good, but he was no Benoit.

I agree, although Jericho was much more the total package in term of star power. Jericho and Eddie had *it*, Benoit, less so.

[Loss]

He didn't so much eliminate everything as he did save it for special occasions. I mean, he and Jericho did have matches where they did dragon suplexes and tarantulas and all sorts of stuff no one else in the company was doing. His Jericho matches were understandably more suplex heavy than his matches with Rock, but he had great chemistry with both guys.

 

There was probably less selling. But early 00s WWF was really sprint-style. I don't think that changed until after KOTR '01 when their roster was decimated by injuries and they started incrementally slowing things down. (It was more gradual than something you'd pick up immediately.)

 

If there was more of anything, I'd probably say it was rope running. He probably took more bumps per match too. Again, WWF heels are expected to bump a lot.

[rzombie1988]

To me, WWE's style changed right after Kidman botched the Shooting Star Press on Chavo.

[Bix]

I wouldn't say that. A lot of issues built up with banned moves and whatnot over the course of a few years.

 

Everyone other than The Undertaker and Kane was banned from using any form of a piledriver without special permission (and even then, they limited those two guys to special occasions) after Triple H was injured from a botched piledriver by...The Undertaker, ostensibly rusty after his time off (he also knocked Vince out with a punch). Never really got the logic there.

 

Benoit, Angle, Edge, and Rhyno's neck injuries. The overhead belly to belly was banned and the German suplex changed to a flat bump, plus spears had to be done differently.

 

The Kidman deal was problematic because it penalized other wrestlers for WWEing himself up until he was too heavy to properly do a move he never did especially well and sometimes blew spectacularly. Similar the scale to the Undertaker piledriver issue.

 

Did powerbombs get banned at one point? I can't remember.

[rzombie1988]

Well I was there when he did it and I can tell you that by the next time WWE had came to my town, it was a completely different show. Some of the guys were doing the indy stuff better than indy guys could, but after that, it was never the same.

[Ditch]

Wasn't the piledriver ban done after Owen broke Austin's neck?

[rovert]

Wasn't the piledriver ban done after Owen broke Austin's neck?

No it was all done in the neck fusion era. Vertabreaker was also done away with in that decree.

[FLIK]

Did Helms ever get to use that in the WWF?

[Ditch]

He used it on Stevie Richards, I think that's it. And IIRC Stevie was gung-ho about taking it.

[Tim Cooke]

Ditch - do you know an approx date for that match?

[rovert]

http://www.wrestleview.com/news/1035206131.shtml

[Eduardo]

Helms also used it on AJ Styles on WWE Metal in early 2002.

[tomk]

Laurinitis replaced Ross sometime in '04 or '05. There isn't much about him in the book, really, nor is there much about Ross.

I was more interested in when he came in as an agent to help “modernize/adjust” the WWE style, as when he came in from the start he was being talked about as a guy who was being groomed to either take Patterson or Ross’s slot.

[Cox]

Didn't Laurinitis join WCW to "modernize the style," and then went to WWF during the WCW merger?

[tomk]

I can understand where both sides are coming from, but I think one thing that absolutely needs to be considered is that Vince Russo's booking wasn't helping a lot of guys in the company. His booking was a big reason why there was such a lack of good heels,

 

The WWF was never a place that had “good heels”. They had good heel managers. As such Mr. Mcmahon was as over (if not more over ) and as effective (if not more effective) than Cornette in the early nineties, Heenan in the 80s or Grand Wizard before that.

 

any sort of threat Jericho posed to HHH had more to do with the fact that Jericho got over quickly whereas HHH, despite being pushed strongly, generated crowd indifference until the wedding angle and subsequent Steph heel turn.

I think the Stephany pairing (while significant to keeping him on top ) wasn’t as important in terms of him catching on with the audience (ending crowd indifference) as the Cactus Jack series.

 

On one hand, Jericho was similar to Vader in that both made huge splashes in their first couple of WWF apperances. But when compared to Vader, Jericho had much more long-term success. I think part of that is Vader's style just wasn't suited for WWF/E to begin with, and his tendency to work stiff was what helped get him over as a monster in WCW in first place. Jericho, on the other hand, learned to adapt, just as he did everywhere else he went. Whether you are a fan of a certain style or not, you can't just take the same style you like working with you wherever you go, because every promotion does things differently.

You can criticize Vader for an over reliance on formula, you can criticize for mic work, there are lots of criticisms one can make about Vader. But unwillingness to adapt to different styles is ridiculous criticism. Vader is a guy who adapted his formula to Mexico, adapted to WCW, adapted to AJPW, adapted to CWA, adapted to UWFi, and adapted to WWF. I’d say he was better at adapting to the WWF than he was at adapting to UWFi. You can watch Vader work as a WWF style heel opposite Ahmed Johnson and compare it to other WWF heels ( Golddust, HHH, etc, opposite Ahmed). His Fatal Four Way WWF match is probably the best multiperson title match in the WWF, and pretty much a Vader one man WWF heeling showcase. The WWF in the nineties was not a fed that booked heels on top long term. You had a run on top and then you were cycled out. The disappointment with Vader in the WWF isn’t that he couldn’t adjust or that he wasn’t over. Disappointment was in the booking and that he was a guy who could have been having showcase main events anywhere and instead was cycled out and doing nothing.

[Tim Cooke]

He came into WCW to be the guy who would help Russo come up with more logical match finishes. When Russo bailed in October 2000, he was Bischoff's #1 guy during the sale. I think his greatest achievement was re-organizing the Cruiserweights after Starrcade 2000 and having the division be the strongest it has been booking wise, maybe ever in WCW.