Dave on Sayama and watching old footage

[goodhelmet]

You would have to change your phone number.

[Resident Evil]

We're no-selling it in tribute to DK and Sayama no-selling those tombstones on the floor.

The no selling tombstones talking point is something that I strongly disagree with. Selling as some would put it does not have to mean staying down on the mat or floor for X amount of time before getting on to the next part of the match (And I will still fight in defense of the Kobashi vs Williams 93 ending by saying that not only was that not bad selling but it was FANTASTIC selling at the end by Kobashi). If you watch the end of the match closely. you will not see two nobody wrestlers hit non impact tombstones on each other, get up and act as if nothing ever happened, do some jumping jacks and than give autographs to the crowd. I have seen this happen before and it doesn't come off as believable as it does here.

What you do see is the two toughest top of the line juniors having the kayfabe and nonkayfabe for that matter match of their lives in an epic feeling bout. A bout where even the two combatants don't even know how far they can take themselves. DK is pushing the legendary *undefeated TM to the limit and this tombstone trading spot right here is an excellent culmination of a match series that shows that. It is to this point the climax of their storied rivalry. We all know DK's tombstone was legit risky. TM's tombstones never looked like were they fun either. As far as legit looking tombostones good you can actually legit tell that these too tombstones connected. That is beyond insanity. That should invest a viewer into the match right there alone. I've said this before but once a wrestling fan starts thinking "They didn't sell like I wanted them to there" instead of thinking "Man alive, TM and DK are two of the baddest hombres that ever lived, how are they going to muster the strength to get up form that?" and getting lost in the moment than it is time to take a step back and at least try to allow yourself to think that way. Otherwise, the magic is gone. And that's one of the dangers of too much message boad posting and reading. Anyway, back on topic about the selling -- when I first saw this I thought it was extremely well done selling (actually, I wasn't thinking about selling but my brain registered how much the tombstones took out of them right away) and I still do to this day. DK in particular sells fatigue during this spot as well as anyone you will ever see. Look at this body language and try to deny it. I will take that type of selling a MILLION times over some mathamatical stay down X amount of time formula every day of the week.

[Loss]

Selling is the absolute most important quality in pro wrestling matches. It is light years more important than anything else in wrestling. Selling is what turns an athletic exhibition into a wrestling match. Selling (or the lack thereof) always stands out because when it's not done properly, it's incredibly noticeable. You can't get anything over in wrestling if you don't sell it.

 

To RE's point, selling indeed doesn't just mean showing pain or laying there for "x" amount of time. It means that moves have consequences.

[Resident Evil]

I think it has to be understood that selling and or noselling does not effect everyone the same way. The exact same moment in a match could be classified in all sorts of different ways as far as selling/ no selling /partial selling goes. Selling is an individual thing on how it effects somebody. Maybe S.L.L. will pop in here with some sort of guidelines post but even than the guidelines are different for each person.

[EricR]

I thought the TM/DK series was boring and awful, but I am not watching with 2011 eyes. I am one of the few who can actually put themselves in the 2040s. People don't like TM/DK here. Oddly enough, melon is really popular here right now, too. People in the 2040s go wild for cantaloupe. And Chris Masters matches have aged remarkably well.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I'm liking the underlying seeds of a movement about the dangers of internet message board posting and reading. It's a poison that turns youngsters against what's good and right and turning them to the wrong-headed and insidious admiration of Jerry Lawler.

[Ditch]

"Jerry Lawler is a really great wrestler who aged well" is a mindset so contrarian, so subversive, that it's a major storyline in WWE.

[S.L.L.]

Maybe S.L.L. will pop in here with some sort of guidelines post but even than the guidelines are different for each person.

Here is the one guideline for selling that applies universally: sell things the way you want people to buy them.

 

As far as that applies to this match...I've never been as bothered by that spot as others. I mean, I don't like it, but I kinda accept on some level that these matches were never about selling the audience on how much the moves hurt as they were about selling them on how cool they were. They weren't sold as great stories, athletic competition, or great stories about athletic competition. They were sold as stunt shows. And if you ever read my criticisms of any of Sayama's matches, they were usually about how they tended to be really, really shitty stunt shows. For all the talk about people not being willing to step back and open themselves up to the Sayama/Billington experience, I actually set the bar really low for those guys. Just hit a bunch of cool looking spots, and I'll at least rank you above the Takada/Koshinaka matches. Anything more than that, and I will be blown away. But they couldn't even clear that bar. And the 4/21/83 match just ups the ante because they wrestle they same shitty stunt show they wrestled a billion times before, but at the end, they try to awkwardly wedge some serious drama in there, and it looks so out of place, and both guys are clearly out of their depth trying to do it. I thought that was a much more egregious problem than the tombstone no-selling. That didn't really clash with the feud's general theme of "LOOK AT THESE GUYS DO THINGS!", which isn't the most compelling theme for a match to me, but not the least, either. Trying to force drama where there was none from guys who can't deliver any was a much bigger problem. I've said before that the matches are like a Michael Bay or Roland Emmerich movie, but this was more like On Deadly Ground. Yeah, you already have the normal shitty Steven Seagal movie there. It's not my cup of tea, but I get why his movies appealed to people in the early 90's. But now you are taking that same shitty Steven Seagal movie and awkwardly shoving a bunch of poorly conceived agitprop in there that's supposed to make me want to care more about the environment and take on the evils of big business, and it's so poorly done and so clearly out of place that it just makes me want to beat a baby seal to death with a cricket bat adorned with the Exxon logo.

 

Also, I don't get how someone as obsessed with displays of masculinity as you are could ever approve of Dynamite's dainty bottle breaking. I'm surprised he didn't have his pinky up when he did that.

[smkelly]

Nevertheless, I think being courteous to each other should remain intact, no matter how inane, naive, or stubborn someone gets.

If you think he is really that bad (not saying he isn't), just ban him then, man.

 

I don't get this post. Only two people have banning powers here... myself and Loss. There is no way in hell I would ban RE.

 

Ohh, Loss is #2 now? Looks like I need to make a bunch of killer comps!

 

We're no-selling it in tribute to DK and Sayama no-selling those tombstones on the floor.

Lots of stuff

 

..........Ten periods, man, ten periods. You know, I was trying to help you out, even defend you, but sometimes, man, you're just beyond comprehension. Sometimes I think you're nothing more than a gimmick poster, which saddens me deeply, because you're not.

 

You do realize professional wrestling is fake, right? I mean, it's not the UFC or a form of MMA, where they don't intentionally sell, as that would tell their opponent, "Hey, his leg is bothering him. Let me kick it a few dozen more times," or whatever a mixed martial-artist thinks when he or she notices a weakened body part or even if their opponent is fatigued.

 

No, professional wrestling is fake because it had to be. It would be MMA if it weren't. Like Loss illustrated, "moves have consequences." It'd be like an MMA fighter getting punched in the face a dozen or so times, like real solid blows, and not showing swelling, bruising, or blood. Fans would notice, "Hey, something isn't right here!"

 

Professional wrestling in its most basic form is...you guessed it, entertainment. It's like watching movies, man. You do realize (God, I hope you do) that the performances are staged, I.E. Christian Bale is pretending to be Batman who is pretending to beat the bejesus out of villains.

 

The same applies to professional wrestling. If they don't act hurt, it must be real, but if it's real, than it's not professional wrestling. RE, do you see the conundrum your fantasy world has created? You simply cannot have the best of both worlds, man. Plenty of wrestling viewers have written volumes to the extent of how selling is one of the most important (if not the most important element in the performance) dynamics of professional wrestling. Wrestling without selling is like Hamlet without death. Without one, you cannot have the other. It is, really it is, a simple thing to understand.

 

I haven't even talked about the importance of wrestling moves either...let alone, where they are done. Similarly, I haven't broached the topic of physiology either, which so happens to be a crucial ingredient in the dynamics of wrestling moves.

 

It is understood that certain moves (think arm-drag or something similar in lightness) don't require Shakespearian level selling. I mean, if wrestlers started selling an arm-drag as though it were a burning hammer, then everything in wrestling would be considered a finishing move, which would cause wrestling to regress to two-hour long hugging fests. History has shown that particular style of "real" wrestling had a shelf life. Hence, the importance of wrestling moves, like the tombstone piledriver.

 

I'll mix the "where moves take place" and physiology (and some physics) together. I'm sure you've seen compilation videos of various people and sometimes animals getting injured in various ways, like on America's Funniest Home Videos. The reason the videos get a reaction out of people is that they know what they are seeing fucking hurts. It's as simple as that, man. Now, when the person in the video pops up suddenly as though nothing happened, it decreases the significance of the video...making it an underwhelming shock video, thus, making it obsolete in terms of shock value. The same logic can be applied to professional wrestling. When a particularly dangerous move, like the tombstone piledriver in this instance, is no sold, it decreases the value of the move. Other things attribute to move devaluation too, but that's beside the point in this discussion.

 

The devaluation is intensified when the move is done outside of the ring. It is clear why, but I'll explain for you. The ring is covered in canvas, and depending where in the world, has a layer of padding over wood. However, outside the ring, a thin pad covers concrete or dirt. What is a harder surface: wood or concrete? Similarly, what is harder: wood or packed dirt? I'd much rather take bumps on wood over concrete or packed dirt.

 

Okay, now mixing that together, we have: a move that is dangerous (a man's head is being "driven" into the mat/floor, which could easily kill him, damage his brain/spinal column, or at the very least, paralyze him from the neck down) - and in this scenario, the move was being down on a concrete floor (I can't remember if the pad had been removed or not). If the pad had been removed, it is far worse in theory, as it should have affected the wrestler doing the move too. I mean, have you ever dropped to your knees on concrete and liked the sensation? Of course not (I pray you haven't). It hurts like divorce, man. (RE - Please...for our sake and your own, do not counter-post about the strength of their neck muscles.)

 

That's why the no-selling tombstones on the floor is bad...and honestly, why your views on wrestling are bad for the business and for the rest of us.

 

Fuck, I need a drink.

 

EDIT: Someone needs to do an RE entry on Urban Dictionary.

EDIT II: Man, this forum hates MS Word.

 

Sean

[EricR]

4/21/83 was just Dynamite showing he had mastered the art of long-term selling by wheelchairing the shit out of life since the late 90s. Take that, Kikuchi!

[Matt D]

I thought the TM/DK series was boring and awful, but I am not watching with 2011 eyes. I am one of the few who can actually put themselves in the 2040s. People don't like TM/DK here. Oddly enough, melon is really popular here right now, too. People in the 2040s go wild for cantaloupe. And Chris Masters matches have aged remarkably well.

But what would President Dusty think?

[Ditch]

Trying to force drama where there was none from guys who can't deliver any was a much bigger problem.

Exactly. They went from a juniors highspot match to RAR I'M GONNA KILL YOU with zero in-between. It's not like they *told a story* of DK getting more and more frustrated by his inability to beat TM, or have him get desperate and cheat/throw punches/grab a chair, culminating in the bottle break. The transition from high-flying to attempted stabbing is jarring. Does the bottle break make the match memorable? Sure! Doesn't mean it was logical or well-executed. There's lots of memorable angles in wrestling history that got a crowd reaction, but in hindsight didn't make sense. The difference is, none of those are used to try and make the case for a wrestling match being the best of all time.

[jdw]

(And I will still fight in defense of the Kobashi vs Williams 93 ending by saying that not only was that not bad selling but it was FANTASTIC selling at the end by Kobashi).

I'm probably the most vocal (and at times the only) person over the years critical of Kobashi's selling in that match. Perhaps part of that is because unlike most people since then, I watched the match in context:

 

08/29/93 AJPW TV (taped 8/23): Doc drops Kobashi on his head once and knocks him completely fucking stone cold out. He eventually wakes back up several *minutes* later.

 

09/05/93 AJPW (taped 8/31): Kobashi *gets up* from a backdrop driver... then crawls around after the second one... then Doc needs to hold onto a bridged dangerous backdrop to keep the fucker from wandering away again.

 

09/12/93 AJPW (taped 9/3 at Budokan): Misawa wants no part of even one of those babies, running for dear life when it's teased, and "surviving" the one that's hit by making Doc take a share of the blow.

 

Kobashi's selling on 8/23 was excellent, and it's actually Misawa's selling on 9/3 that was FANTASTIC.

 

Kobashi was jerking off on 8/31. He basically played Tommy Dreamer going from one Table Shot knocking him out to needing three Table Shots to put him away either days later. Misawa was the one who grasped "I don't want to take even one of these fuckers."

 

Misawa's selling in the title change the following year was great too.

 

 

John

[Wahoos Leg]

This thread is why I love pro wrestling. A rollicking entertaining roller-coaster much like one of those Bay and Emmerich films what try to destroy the globe and such.

 

Except, the dialogue's way better.

[MikeCampbell]

All the fun in this thread actually made me dig out the first volume of the Tiger Mask set I got from IVP something like two years ago. After watching the first match the only positive I can take away from it is that Sayama's mask was much shittier than their work.

[Matt D]

This thread is why I love pro wrestling. A rollicking entertaining roller-coaster much like one of those Bay and Emmerich films what try to destroy the globe and such.

 

Except, the dialogue's way better.

I just wish that RE would stop no selling everyone else's points. Talk about living the dream.

[Ditch]

I do think that, booking-wise, Kobashi should have stayed down after one backdrop driver. As selling, however, it was an over-the-top "oh god someone get me outta here" reaction to an over-the-top move and I think it worked.

[smkelly]

I never had a problem with the way Kobashi acted, I mean, it wasn't HBK over-selling or the way The Rock would flip after taking a stunner. Not to sound RE-ish, but Kobashi's facial expressions remind me of a boxer who has been punched really hard in the jaw and is trying to get up/out of harms way. OH THE EMOTION~!

[MJH]

The thing to be wary of in the whole Kobashi/Doc discussion; there's a lot of people who'll phrase John's argument as "Kobashi trying to steal more spotlight and Doc having to reign him in" (or something), which is ridiculous. That was clearly the planned finish, and will have came from/went through Baba. The logic from the six-man is off, of course, but it doesn't ruin the match for me at all. I think it works almost because it's Kobashi and his character, and it's not as if he's anywhere near getting control after the first one hits. I think the actual stupidest choice of the match was Doc's handspring elbow, but it's not as if that greatly affects the match either. I do prefer the Misawa/Doc match - I recall it being very cleverly/minutely laid-out - but Kobashi/Doc is still a great fun match too.

[S.L.L.]

Man, it's been a loooooong time since I watched that match (and I don't think I've ever watched Misawa/Doc, which I probably should). I remember really liking it at the time for all the reasons most people liked it at the time (LOOKIT! HE GOT BACKDROP DRIVERED THREE TIMES! THREE FUCKING TIMES!!!THREE), and I have no sense of how it would hold up if I watched it again now (which I also probably should). But I do kinda see how it would have worked better when seen out of context like I did than in context like John did. Although I also see how Kobashi being the most fighting spirit-y of the Four Pillars would kinda make it work in character. I mean, Kobashi isn't precisely a dude with an invincible head gimmick, but he might he might be a relative of that, sorta. Like, I'd be willing to pretend he got some extra fighting spirit from a Samoan great-grandmother or something. I mean, I was willing to pretend that Yokozuna was Japanese to some extent. Hmmmm....does anyone know what the font they used for the Twins logo was? I smell a Photoshop....

[FLIK]

 

Did Gran Hamada have his own mother fucking cartoon? NO

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaXQIBwZP1I

 

Whear's Gran Hamada's spiffy new movie coming out this year? HUH HUH?

 

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-...on-film-in-2011

 

Tiger Mask fights for the orphen children and helps the elderly.

 

 

It's really a no contest knock out master blaster win as far as who the #1 ichiban bestest wrestler is here

 

[Resident Evil]

Words can't describe how much I love the original 1969 Tiger Mask anime. Any wrestling fan owes it to themselves to watch it. I can't say enough great things about it. Some of the best fights (Be forewarned, they make FMW or BJW look tame) I have ever seen put to movie and/or TV. Ahead of its time for the wrestling. Way ahead. They manage to just mix fantasy and real life reality into this animated blend which works so well and helps to elevate the product .... which reminds me the NWA, Giant Baba, Inoki and others are all freaking in this. Any sort of fantasy wrestling personality that you would expect or even dream of and than even more is in here. By far, the best wrestling show I have ever seen though I haven't seen them all.

[jdw]

Although I also see how Kobashi being the most fighting spirit-y of the Four Pillars would kinda make it work in character.

We know that Misawa had the most fighting spirit of the Four Corners. Did Kobashi have the fighting spirit to beat Jumbo?

 

 

John

[smkelly]

He did beat cancer though.

[Bix]

Words can't describe how much I love the original 1969 Tiger Mask anime. Any wrestling fan owes it to themselves to watch it. I can't say enough great things about it. Some of the best fights (Be forewarned, they make FMW or BJW look tame) I have ever seen put to movie and/or TV. Ahead of its time for the wrestling. Way ahead. They manage to just mix fantasy and real life reality into this animated blend which works so well and helps to elevate the product .... which reminds me the NWA, Giant Baba, Inoki and others are all freaking in this. Any sort of fantasy wrestling personality that you would expect or even dream of and than even more is in here. By far, the best wrestling show I have ever seen though I haven't seen them all.

Are there any fansubs around or just straight Japanese?