Loss Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 I put Tenryu's enzuigiri in the same category as Misawa adjusting his tights while laying on the mat selling and Flair applying the figure four to the wrong leg -- a small imperfection in an otherwise great wrestler, and one that doesn't really matter that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Another AWA wrestler that should get some consideration as a great tag wrestler is Jerry Blackwell. His were the teams that had the biggest heel runs between 1980 and 1985 in the AWA, initially with John Studd, then with Sheik Kaissie in an extended run with the High Flyers that most people have forgotten about over time (I would argue that Blackwell/Kaissie were the most hated team in the AWA of the 80's), and then with Ken Patera in a run with the tag titles for a year. Blackwell was able to carry the ball as the top monster heel in the AWA between 1980 and 1985. His bulk made him the perfect foil for the younger, quicker teams like the High Flyers. He maintained a huge level of hatred amongthe fans for four years straight, with different partners, and held strong as a true "monster" throughout all of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Watching NWA TV from 88 and I think Bobby Fulton is a big part of getting the Fantastics over. He carries the team in promos and I think he gives the matches more emotion and energy than Tommy Rogers. But Rogers had better timing and execution. That's what made them a great team. I always liked Stan Lane's kicks. They had a lot of personality to them. I think Kane is a good modern tag team wrestler. Surprisingly good face in peril considering his gimmick. Like Owen he has the ability to make any team he is a part of seem like a real team instead of tag team larping. Which in 2011 is an important element for any team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 For all his skills, Tenryu seemed to have a pretty lousy vertical jump. He's a sumo. Sumo don't jump high. I put Tenryu's enzuigiri in the same category as Misawa adjusting his tights while laying on the mat selling and Flair applying the figure four to the wrong leg -- a small imperfection in an otherwise great wrestler, and one that doesn't really matter that much. Funny, I never really noticed Misawa adjusting his tights like I did with Choshu. The biggest offender in that respect was Davey Boy. He would do it all the time. Flair putting the figure four on the wrong leg was a lot worse though, since he was supposed to be *the* specialist of the hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Los Infernales and Los Brazos. Trios wrestling is after all tag wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Re: Lane's kicks. I think they bought the kicks because people sold for them, too, no? And more than that they were presented by the announcers as something honestly dangerous. Wrestling is ultimately symbolic. If you train the audience to buy something, they will buy it. If you train them that something doesn't matter, then it won't matter despite being used in the best way imaginable with the best execution imaginable. Every point of evidence said that his kicks were dangerous save for maybe actually watching him kick someone. I've been loving the John Tatum/Rod Price Tags in Global. I know he had some runs with Jack Victory in Texas. I want to see that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 "If you train the audience to buy something, they will buy it." Very true. The conviction that Jim Ross uses during the Chi Town Rumble match between Flair and Steamboat when referring to Hiro Matsuda as "the evil, evil man from the Orient" is presented in such a way that I imagine the 1989 WCW audience bought the stereotype completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 If you train the audience to buy shit, they will eventually buy it. That doesn't change the fact it's shit. The fact that the audience at the time bought them doesn't change the fact that Stan's kick look like shit. Same thing works with pretty much anything, music, movie, TV... food... ideology... Wrestling is about manipulation of the audience to begin with, so with that line of thought, the only good wrestling is what gets over and makes money. Well, that's not what I'm looking for when I watch it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 It also doesn't really matter nearly as much as it's being focused on. JDW did not say it's a non-issue, he instead suggested keeping it in proper perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 If you train the audience to buy shit, they will eventually buy it. That doesn't change the fact it's shit. The fact that the audience at the time bought them doesn't change the fact that Stan's kick look like shit. Same thing works with pretty much anything, music, movie TV... Believable strikes just aren't something I tend to care about. I care more about effective strikes or well-used strikes or meaningful strikes than believable ones. Wrestling is fantasy to me. What matters is consistency and coherence within the fictional universe. One way of gauging that (though not the only one) is whether or not the fans buy what's going on. That said, I'd would have to watch a bunch of Lane/Eaton MX stuff to see how I felt. I've seen a lot more Eaton/Condrey lately and a lot more solo Stan Lane stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Believable strikes just aren't something I tend to care about. I care more about effective strikes or well-used strikes or meaningful strikes than believable ones. Wrestling is fantasy to me. What matters is consistency within the fictional universe. that said, I'd would have to watch a bunch of Lane/Eaton MX stuff to see how I felt. I've seen a lot more Eaton/Condrey lately and a lot more solo Stan Lane stuff. I don't care that it's not believable. 99% of wrestling offense is not believable. My issue with it is that it looks terrible and damages my enjoyment of the match I'm watching whenever Stan gets on offense with it. It's the cringeworthy minute of every MX match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Believable strikes just aren't something I tend to care about. I care more about effective strikes or well-used strikes or meaningful strikes than believable ones. Wrestling is fantasy to me. What matters is consistency within the fictional universe. that said, I'd would have to watch a bunch of Lane/Eaton MX stuff to see how I felt. I've seen a lot more Eaton/Condrey lately and a lot more solo Stan Lane stuff. I don't care that it's not believable. 99% of wrestling offense is not believable. My issue with it is that it looks terrible and damages my enjoyment of the match I'm watching whenever Stan gets on offense with it. It's the cringeworthy minute of every MX match. I'm trying to figure out how that's not a believability issue. If they were more "real" looking, you'd like them more, and you'd be distracted less. I kind of like the idea that it's about them being aesthetically pleasing. If they were prettier and more artistic, you'd like them more. I don't know if that means they'd be more or less stylized though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 I'm trying to figure out how that's not a believability issue. If they were more "real" looking, you'd like them more, and you'd be distracted less. I guess that's a believability issue in the sense I have to believe it can actually hurt his opponent. Or at least look good in a pro-wrestling aesthetic sense, which is not the case. When I hear the grating "educated feat" line from the announcers and have to watch *those* kicks, I just roll my eyes. I kind of like the idea that it's about them being aesthetically pleasing. Pretty much. I know I won't get Kawada or Aja Kong stiff kick here. It's not the issue. I just want them to look good like any wrestling spot. A top rope elbow is not believable, but a great looking tope rope elbow is a great spot. I don't like Stan's kicks not because they aren't realistic stiff kicks, but because they look ridiculous. If they were prettier and more artistic, you'd like them more. Probably, yes. I don't know if that means they'd be more or less stylized though. I don't know, but at the very least Stan not looking like a goof doing them would be a beginning. On the same show Muta debuted the handspring elbow. Totally ludicrous and "unbelievable", but looks awesome in a pro-wrestling setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Responding khawk on Brunzell and Blackwell. The funny thing is that I think I would consider Blackwell a great tag wrestler and Brunzell merely a good one. That's not really a knock on Brunzell but he always struck me as a good hand that worked well in the tag context and great against the right opponent but wasn't off the chart. Blackwell was a really great tag wrestler both as a babyface and a heel. Just had a transcendent quality to him and could both sell - and give - an asskicking. I like Blackwell in singles, but think he was actually considerably better in tags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Man, watched a ton of stuff for the 1980s NWA poll and I think the "bad kicks" maybe crossed my mind a time or two out of a couple dozen + matches. What a weird thing to be fixated on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 I don't get fixated on them, they just make me cringe every time around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hack myers Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I want to reply to Dylan talking about Buddy Rose being one of the best tag wrestlers. Since finishing Buddy's set a week or so back I would agree with Dylan. The one thing that really stuck out to me though was the number of very good to great multi man tags with Buddy in Portland. Not a single one of those matches were less than great performances by Buddy but of course Buddy was always ready to go in all of his matches. He really shined in the 1/5/80 8-man bumping like a maniac and doing an awesome heel schtick. Another great multi man with Buddy is in February of 82 where they wrestle with no ropes in the third fall. But I don't want to spoil the fun for those who haven't seen the Buddy comp so I'll stop by saying in my opinion Buddy is also one of the best multi man tag wrestlers. His bumping, schtick and entertaining personality really shine in those matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Actually there is a point to be made here that multi-man tags are a bit of a different dynamic since you've got more guys who have to get their shit in and it is easier for things to hit a wall or never develop a real structure. Also worth noting that Buddy was pretty great in the AWA six-man's he was in as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpchicago23 Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 What about Billy Gunn? He was in a pretty athletic albeit green team with Bart as the Smoking Gunns, he had the incredible heat then huge popping tag team in the New Age Outlaws and even had a pretty good team with Palumbo as Billy and Chuck. Now i now you're gonna say that they were playing two man lovers and i get that but the team was actually pretty good. Wrestling needs more mediocrity in a sense that not every guy is a main eventer. I love guys who are tag team specialists and dont half ass it because they're thrown together with someone. Let someone who obviously will never get a push and team him up with another of the same nature and build a good team out of them. Another pretty good tag wrestler was Ron Simmons. I know he didnt light the world on fir or anything but had a really good run with Reed, a pretty interesting combo with Scorpio in ECW and WWF circa 98 and of course the APA. He served better in the role of one of two big bad asses just throwing stiff clotheslines and spinebusters so i think the teams of Doom and APA worked better than the Scorpio teaming. Lastly i would have to go with Perry Saturn. One of my favorite teams was The Eliminators and he and Kronus paired so well. The ability to throw awesome suplexes coupled with some good big guy high spots made them really fun to watch. Also had a good run with Raven in 99 and with the Radicalz in the WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 Actually there is a point to be made here that multi-man tags are a bit of a different dynamic since you've got more guys who have to get their shit in and it is easier for things to hit a wall or never develop a real structure.It's been said that there's no such thing as a bad six-man tag match. That's not quite true, I've seen a few terrible ones, but you still get the point. Having six guys in there seems to hit some kind of magical plateau where it just makes it a hell of a lot easier to have a really fun match. There's never an excuse to have any down time, because there's always a fresh guy on the apron who can be tagged in to keep the match going. And it's just few enough guys to keep it from turning into a clusterfuck and make sure that everyone gets their shit in. With eight guys or more, some can be left out in the cold when it comes to never getting a chance to shine; but with six wrestlers, as long as the match goes more than five minutes, there's always enough time for everyone to do something cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 Here's a question: who were better The Fantastics or The Rock 'n' Roll Express? You'd think this was a no brainer, right? But I wonder. If I had to rank the 4 workers, no question it would be: 1. Ricky Morton 2. Tommy Rogers 3. Bobby Fulton 4. Robert Gibson How much better is Morton than Rogers? How much better is Rogers than Fulton? How much better is Fulton than Gibson? Would like to hear thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 I think the consensus is that the Rock'n Roll were vastly better than the Fans. I would have disagreed 12 years ago, but then again I hadn't seen nearly enough. Today, I have no doubt the Rock'n Roll were better, and it's a case of the whole being bigger than the sum of the parts, as Ricky Morton was a great worker while Robert Gibson in his prime was... good, I guess. I would rank the 4 guys exactly in the same order, Fulton being the most underrated of the four. Rogers was one hell of a worker but didn't carry the same personnality and connection with a crowd that Morton would, and he's also not nearly as charismatic or good on the mic. He's a more "modern" kind of worker in term of mechanics though, which is why he adapted much better in his later days. But Morton is, as the whole package, quite a bit above Rogers. Fulton has been quite underrated for years, I have no idea what the consensus is these days, but he was the one carrying the charisma load of the Fans, but was also a super solid worker in the ring. Much much better than Gibson who always strikes me as being kinda there "for the ride" a little bit, even in their prime. But as a whole, the Rock'n Roll Express had a chemistry and a dynamic carried by Morton which made them a better team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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