El-P Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 I always loved the leap over the rope clothesline and can't believe someone hasn't stolen it yet. That's the only thing great about Stan Lane, this spot is ridiculously good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 I'm surprised to see all the Stan Lane hate, considering all the well-regarded matches he's been part of and heavy representation he's had on every 80s set where he worked in the promotion. For a long time, people loved the Eaton/Lane team to a point where they sold the Eaton/Condrey team short. Now, it looks like the opposite extreme may be happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 I know we all have spent years shitting on Lane's kicks in the MX, but... They actually were bought by the fans. It's a bit like us thinking The People's Elbow sucks donkey dick. In reality, the move was over like shit with the fans. Hell, I don't even think Stan's kicks in the MX were "blown" akin to the Tenryu-zigiri which often was the Neighborhood Play of pro wrestling. Yet for whatever reason, in Tenryu Luv over the past few years, do the shitty enzugiris get as much run as the unending "Stan's Kicks Sux" meme? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 The People's elbow was a retarded spot, but The Rock's perfect execution of it made it shitloads of fun. Lane's kicks were just god awful, looking like it couldn't hurt a dead fly. And it's not even like looking in retrospect after years of stiff kicks. It's just awful looking. I do think Lane is getting a free pass for being part of the MX. The MX still were a great team involved in great matches, but it's like Kawada & Taue at the time Taue sucked. I cringe when Lane makes a comeback or an offense flurry with the shitty kicks. Tenryu-zigiri looked "heavy", which fit the frame of my beloved Tenryu. Plus he's a former sumo guy, and a former sumo doing enzuigiri, even shitty ones, still rules (plus the japanese audience was used to sloppy enzuigiris after years of Inoki and Fuji) . And really, despite the questionnable enzuigiris, Tenryu is a great worker. Lane just doesn't strike me as particulary good. Didn't matter since the tag formula kinda hide that fact (maybe a good reason why Lane never worked solo), especially when you're working with guys like Eaton or Pritchard. I won't say a word about Keirn, I don't like the Fabs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Excellent post and thread idea. I think it has to go: 1. Arn 2. Morton 3. Eaton Anyone disagree with that? Considering you had so little positive to say about the Rock'n'Roll Express in the PG-13 thread I am surprised to see you have changed your tune so quickly and now consider Morton the second best tag wrestler of all time. You didn't care for the 'face in peril structure', considered them both 'wimpy', said that their offense is 'hardly amazing', said that he wasn't charismatic or good on the mic. You were bored that '80% of their matches were Morton selling' as you wanted to see 'a contest', and that 'the match is just as good as the opponents' offence and Morton's selling of that offence'. For some who was so negative towards the team, I am surprised to see you rank him so high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 I'd still say Michaels is one of the better tag wrestlers in US history. I don't dislike him as much as most people (around here, anyway) do in singles, but a tag environment "covers" for some of the things he's normally called out on in a singles environment. Rockers are the best team in company history for me and there's a shit ton of Rockers matches that I love; think the Cliq tag from that '94 Action Zone episode is terrific; the No Way Out '07 main event is one of the better "lead in" tags I can ever remember the company running...great FIP (thought he was a better FIP than Jannetty while Jannetty was better working the apron/coming in off the hot tag), really good chickenshit douchebag, isn't Bill Dundee in terms of shtick but has a huge bag of bumps (I know some people are iffy on that, especially as a heel, which I understand) and "hijinks", etc. Wouldn't say he's a Morton/Steamboat level FIP or an Eaton in terms of versatility and being able to work well with pretty much anybody (within a tag setting), but I'd say he ticks more or less all he boxes required to be in the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negro Suave Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 I always loved the leap over the rope clothesline and can't believe someone hasn't stolen it yet. That's the only thing great about Stan Lane, this spot is ridiculously good. Hmm, im going to try and work that in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 I'd still say Michaels is one of the better tag wrestlers in US history. I don't dislike him as much as most people (around here, anyway) do in singles, but a tag environment "covers" for some of the things he's normally called out on in a singles environment. Rockers are the best team in company history for me and there's a shit ton of Rockers matches that I love; think the Cliq tag from that '94 Action Zone episode is terrific; the No Way Out '07 main event is one of the better "lead in" tags I can ever remember the company running...great FIP (thought he was a better FIP than Jannetty while Jannetty was better working the apron/coming in off the hot tag), really good chickenshit douchebag, isn't Bill Dundee in terms of shtick but has a huge bag of bumps (I know some people are iffy on that, especially as a heel, which I understand) and "hijinks", etc. Wouldn't say he's a Morton/Steamboat level FIP or an Eaton in terms of versatility and being able to work well with pretty much anybody (within a tag setting), but I'd say he ticks more or less all he boxes required to be in the discussion. I agree with this. I always thought Shawn was an excellent tag wrestler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Eddie's another really great tag wrestler. Not necessarily up there with Morton, Eaton, Arn -- the "top tier" guys -- but I've watched everything on Will's Eddie set and the guy was always pretty terrific in tags. I guess Los Guerreros was the only "real" tag team he was a part of in the US, but I thought they were by far the best of the three "Smackdown! Six" teams in 2002 and Eddie was really awesome the whole year, to the point where I'd say he has a strong case for being the best in America that year. When Chavo gets injured he starts teaming with Tajiri briefly and it's probably one of my favourite makeshift teams ever. Great FIP; always so animated when he's not in the ring (though not in a way that distracts from what's going on inside it) to the point where I'd say he's one of the best apron workers ever; could work well with virtually anybody; great whether he was babyface or heel; TONNES of shtick, again whether he was babyface or heel; crazy bumper; always had really good offense...if Marty is in the discussion then I think Eddie deserves to at least be floating around there (and I love Marty, btw). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Choshu was an excellent tag wrestler, really good at interacting with his partners and creating momentum swings when he was tagged in. Yatsu was really good too, both as the lesser, punishment-eating partner to Jumbo and Choshu and as the occasional senior partner in tandem with someone like Nakano. Tenryu became a great tag wrestler. He was great at playing punk when matched with someone like Baba and then equally great as the ace in those WAR tags. He and the BattlArts guys delivered the nastiest pinfall break-ups I've seen. Fuchi and Kikuchi were both great, Fuchi as a sadist (though he had one great babyface performance from the '80s set) and Kikuchi as Japanese Ricky Morton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 I was just about to mention Choshu before I read Childs post. My favorite thing about him in tags, especially in All Japan, is that he used the high angle backdrop so effectivly as a transition move to tag in or out and to create a transition from defense to offense. Even if he was taking a decent beating, a backdrop suplex could turn the tide and not make me roll my eyes. Choshu/Yatsu are in my personal top 10 if just for the Jumbo/Tenryu series. re: MX Due to the lack of house show footage of Condrey (until Cornette released his personal videos recently), the Lane version of the team had far more matches that were taped and were longer. I chose Eaton/Lane as my favorite of the two based on this fact alone years ago. Initially, the 2/2/86 Superstars on the Superstation match against the Rock n Roll Express and the 8/16/86 match were the two main MX vs. RnR matches from the Condrey run in the NWA. The Superstars on the Superstation match is a cluster and until the 8/16/86 came out in handheld form, you couldn't make much of the last fall from what TV showed (especially with that ridiculous camera angle). Meanwhile, Eaton/Lane had FOUR good to great Fantastics matches, the 1990 PPV with RnR, and the Southern Boys match. With the recent Cornette footage, I think the Condrey team will continue to be more and more praised for their NWA work. I also think that the Condrey/Eaton team working more for heat, while the Eaton/Lane team was more of a work rate team, is something that affects opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Workrate teams don't age as well (not that Eaton/Lane don't age well, per say).. And while Eaton was great in both roles, I always prefered Condrey as the worker/brain of the team with Eaton as the flash opposed Eaton as the worker/brain and Lane as the flash. Eaton was better than Lane in that role in the team, but Condrey was better as the brain. Better heat magnets + working on top more = Eaton/Condrey. Eaton/Lane DID get great heat though, especially when you consider they were indeed more "workrate" oriented, something is to be said about their ability to do both. I prefer the Fabs for Lane teams but Condrey/Eaton trump them all IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 That's the only thing great about Stan Lane, this spot is ridiculously good.You can play a drinking game and take a drink every time he throws out a shitty "jungle kick"!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 A few things. Stan Lane ruled... People see the bow-ties and homo-erotic wrokout videos and think of the Fabs as a finesse team when really, they were fucking brawlers who could brawl with the best of them and abuse an opponent until it feels like a squash match. The videos made them appeal to the ladies but the work in the ring was manly man shit. In the MX, he played his role fine and for the time, the "kicks" really made him stand out but they have too many good tags in both a brawl setting (Fabs match) and technical setting (Fabs match ) for him to be dismissed as a shitty wrestler. Dennis Condrey... There is less footage of Dennis Condrey but there is footage of him with Bobby, Norvell AND Randy Rose that bolsters his case as someone who could work with multiple tag partners and have good matches with each of them. The only issue may be that he was always a heel but reading the thread, that doesn't seem to be a knock against anyone. I am revoking both Childs and Dylan's Portland pass. I drop Buddy Rose and neither one jumped on it. That's just fucked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 The People's elbow was a retarded spot, but The Rock's perfect execution of it made it shitloads of fun. Lane's kicks were just god awful, looking like it couldn't hurt a dead fly. And it's not even like looking in retrospect after years of stiff kicks. It's just awful looking. That sort of side steps my point: It doesn't matter a great deal whether you or I, now or at the time, think that Lane's kicks look god awful. *At the time*, the fans bought them. Dusty's Flip-Flop&Fly punches & elbow looked like shit as well. But the fans Really Bought them, at least as long as the fans bought into Dusty. I suspect the reason why Crockett/Turner fans bought Stan's kicks is because no one else (i.e. hardly anyone else) in the US in the Big 2 was doing kicks along the lines that Stan was. We had plenty of Stomp A Mudhole kicks, but not much like Stan. Even Steamboat's shitty Kung Fu Steamer gimmick avoided the kicks. So people weren't comparing Stan's kicks to say... Akira Fucking Meada. And they bought them. It's not like they were goaning. It's not like a heat vaccum hit the arena when Stan starting "kicking the shit" out of a babyface. They got about as much heat as Bobby Eatons great looking Memphis-style punches. Tenryu-zigiri looked "heavy", which fit the frame of my beloved Tenryu. Plus he's a former sumo guy, and a former sumo doing enzuigiri, even shitty ones, still rules (plus the japanese audience was used to sloppy enzuigiris after years of Inoki and Fuji). I think the last part it the one relavant to Stan: people accepted sloppy/shitty enzuigiris. Tenryu's might have been sloppier and shittier than most, which is why we used to bust on them... but did the crowd buy them? Usually... unless he missed them a little bit too much. And really, despite the questionnable enzuigiris, Tenryu is a great worker. Lane just doesn't strike me as particulary good. Didn't matter since the tag formula kinda hide that fact (maybe a good reason why Lane never worked solo), especially when you're working with guys like Eaton or Pritchard. I won't say a word about Keirn, I don't like the Fabs. People who have watched a lot of Fabs would be the ones who could jump in here: how well did Stan know Tag Team Conventions while in the Fabs? What I mean by this is: are we going to totally give Bobby and Jimbo credit for teaching Stan how to really, really, really know how to work all the strong Tag Team Spots that the MX rolled out? I'm not talking about shit like the Double Goozle or other high spots. I mean all that shit of working over the face in peril, how to work distraction spots, out to fake out the ref, how to perfectly play to pissing the shit off of the fans, etc? Because Stan flat out fit into the MX from pretty much day one. In the sense of it not looking like Bobby and Jimbo had to take him aside an tell him: "When I do this to get Ricky's attention, and then Bobby wanders over there to get Tommy Young's attention, you slip in and put the boots to Robert... then slip back out when you notice Bobby & Tommy have gone as far at the can and Tommy is about ready to turn around... but then look for Ricky jumping in the ring, because Tommy is then going to be forced to drag him back into the corner, which is when you can slip back in and together work a double team... which will send Ricky batshit and force Tommy even more to drag him back into the corner... if you work it just right, Robert will be right across the bottom apron so the I can do a racket thrust into his throat as I wander on back..." Okay, so some of that is planned out (like figuring out where to put Robert to eat the racket thrust). But most of the rest of it... That's just basic old school smart Tag Team Bullshit. Obviously the MX & Jimmy were fucking masters of it. We can debate of they are the best, but we'd probably agree that they were Really, Really, Really fucking good at it. They had a PhD in Tag Team Conventions. What strikes me when I watch the Eaton-Lane-Jimmy version of it is that Lane knows what the hell to do. We can complain about some of the stuff we don't really like of his, similar to how we can complain about some of the stuff Fulton does with the Fans. But... Lane & Fulton know their shit. Rogers & Bobby (and of course Jimmy and no doubt Tommy Young) are fucking great in some of the stuff they do. But when you watching something like Clash I, it's pretty freaking clear that Lane and Fulton really know their shit as well. That was one of the things I tried to get across in the old Table For Six post: even if Fulton isn't one of my favs, that s.o.b. really knew his role and did a lot of small basic Tag Team Bullshit that helped make it a match. Lane strikes me the same way. There's some stuff in there that I, as a Wrestling Snob, might turn my nose up as not really having a Fine Wrestling Bouquet to it. But if you eyeball the fans, they're swilling it down... and it's not exactly like they're all Sportitorium Wino Fans belting back: So... maybe we need to cut Stan a little slack on those kicks: Fans at the time bought the shit. They weren't the dumbest fans in pro wrestling. We need to admit that this shit worked. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Hey Will, way back in post 1 I wrote: Buddy Rose - Often worked in tag team matches in Portland where you really got a taste of things as he could really temper his big spots and schtick well to that setting without really feeling like you were missing any of the staples that made the match a "Buddy Rose" match. Then you've got the Rose/Somers team which is one of the great short lived teams in wrestling history. Absolute bump freak, who could control a match offensively well, was a master at schtick and working the crowd, and was maybe the best I've ever seen at changing gears to work in some big spots and keep things moving along. Was a great tag wrestler in Portland and a great one in the AWA. Shame he never got a chance anywhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Tommy Young = JCP/early WCW referee Tommy Lane = The RPM that wasn't Mike Davis. He was eventually replaced by Alan Martin as "Kevin Dillinger" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Hey Will, way back in post 1 I wrote: Buddy Rose - Often worked in tag team matches in Portland where you really got a taste of things as he could really temper his big spots and schtick well to that setting without really feeling like you were missing any of the staples that made the match a "Buddy Rose" match. Then you've got the Rose/Somers team which is one of the great short lived teams in wrestling history. Absolute bump freak, who could control a match offensively well, was a master at schtick and working the crowd, and was maybe the best I've ever seen at changing gears to work in some big spots and keep things moving along. Was a great tag wrestler in Portland and a great one in the AWA. Shame he never got a chance anywhere else. I might have to change my name to "Puts foot in mouth". Anyway, where did this idea that Tenryu had a shiity enziguiri come from? From watching the footage, it doesn't come across that way at all. Bad talking point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 That is a bad talking point. Well, the person taking the enzuguri probably thinks it's bad because he is seeing stars afterward. Tenryu's enzuguri looks sloppy about half the time, but the blunt force trauma is never suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 That is a bad talking point. Well, the person taking the enzuguri probably thinks it's bad because he is seeing stars afterward. Tenryu's enzuguri looks sloppy about half the time, but the blunt force trauma is never suspect. Tenryu would whiff a lot, or would tap the upper back a lot. He wasn't making folks see stars all that often, unless grumpy old Tenryu in the late 90s and 00's started actually connecting to the skull a lot more than "prime" Tenryu did. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Tommy Young = JCP/early WCW referee Tommy Lane = The RPM that wasn't Mike Davis. He was eventually replaced by Alan Martin as "Kevin Dillinger" You're right. Thought there was something wrong with Tommy Lane, but was too lazy to google it up. Corrected. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 That is a bad talking point. Well, the person taking the enzuguri probably thinks it's bad because he is seeing stars afterward. Tenryu's enzuguri looks sloppy about half the time, but the blunt force trauma is never suspect.unless grumpy old Tenryu in the late 90s and 00's started actually connecting to the skull a lot more than "prime" Tenryu did. John He didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 I always thought Tenryu's enzugiri was terrible, but I'm basing it on the Tenryu of the 90's and on. He never seemed to get up high enough and he never did it quickly. Also he usually had to hold on to his opponent to execute it. Overall, pretty weak looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 For all his skills, Tenryu seemed to have a pretty lousy vertical jump. Even his big top-rope move was basically just him collapsing backwards onto the mat and getting zero air. The only thing I've seen him do which was even close to being "high flying" was a simple dive through the ropes. Not knocking the guy's overall working ability, he's probably my favorite worker of the Grumpy Old Stiff Japanese Bastard mode, but leaving his feet was not his strong point. Nobody's perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 I have to make a case for Jim Brunzell, mostly for his extended work with Greg Gagne in the High Flyers. Gagne and Brunzell teamed for the majority of years between 1974 and 1985. They were the AWA's equivalent of the "Teeny-bopper" tag teams of the mid-80's: Young and extremely over with the fans of the area. They faced all the major teams of their era in the AWA including Stevens/Bockwinkel, Vachon/Raschke, and Lanza/Duncum in the 70's, and Kaissie/Blackwell, Patera/Blackwell, Ventrua/Adonis, Patera/Duncum, Santana/Martel, The Road Warriors, Steamboat/Onita, Hansen/Brody, and many more in the 80's. they captured the AWA Tag title in 1977 and again in 1981. They held the titles in 1981 for two years straight, which is an unheard of run for a tag champion. They remained over as a tag team in the AWA until around the middle of 1984. I give Brunzell the nod as a great tag wrestler because he was able to transition his tag skills into the moderately successful tag team of the Killer Bees with Brian Blair in the WWF after his run with Gagne ended. The Bees were consistently in the mix in the WWF tag scene for several years, and regardless of whether you liked the WWF tag style or not, they were as entertaining as any team from that era. Though they never won the tag title, nobody would have been surprised if the Bees had actually had some time with the WWF tag straps, which should illustrate the success of the team over at least a 3 year period. Gagne was also a very good tag wrestler, but I hesitate to rate him as "great", simply because he did not have a successful run outside of the AWA in a tag team, and the teams he mixed in with after Brunzell left never established themselves as real players...they always felt makeshift to me. Curt Hennig is probably the closest to a regular tag team partner that Gagne had after 1984, and that team only seemed to team sporadically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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