Tony Schiavone and early 90s WCW announcing

[JerryvonKramer]

Guys, what are your thoughts on Tony Schiavone?

 

I know he got a bad reputation as a ridiculous shill during the Nitro era, but for me, in the preceding decade he was one of the most solid play-by-play men in the business. His knowledge of moves was good, his PASSION and love for NWA and WCW was palpable. He had an encyclopedic knowledge of great moments and when they happened, and that gave things a sense of history. When he'd talk about Flair beating Race in '83, or Sting beating Flair '90, and so on.

 

I don't know, he always gave me the impression that he was a real fan of "this great sport". And he made it feel more like a real sport as well. He was into stats, and the record books, like a commentator from a real sport.

 

I think he's terribly underrated.

[Loss]

Spoke in generalities too much, but was sometimes good. Most of his comments he just recycled in different order for different matches. I can't think of a single time he actually contributed to the sense of history in a match though, outside of maybe running down Flair's previous Starrcade victories at Starrcade '93.

[jdw]

Yeah... "generalities" as Loss says, and also "themes". He'd have his storyline (coming across as being fed to him) and would talk it. On play-by-play, as in calling what people were doing in the ring, I thought he kind of sucked. The thing is, he came across as polished and professional, so you kind of thought he must be good.

 

I don't need my pbp guy to call every spot. But I thought Vince in the solo booth circa 1980-81 was really great at calling both the Action and also the Storyline while getting across the Themes developing in the match, and tying it all together... and it wasn't like the point for him was always to tie it all together. It happened sometimes, and other times the match would go in a direction that he followed along.

 

Lance seemed to effortlessly do all that, to the point that any of his calling of the Action felt like it was just the storyline... and weaved in with what the guys were doing in the ring.

 

Ross *tried* to do that in his Mid South/UWF and early WCW days, but stort of tried too hard. It worked, but it didn't come across as naturally as Lance did... Ross was trying really hard. It's a little extreme of a comp, but Ross even a his best felt like DDP working: trying too damn hard to call a classic or call this match/angle exactly like he thought it should be. Lance would be like one of those natural wrestlers where it just kind of flowed out.

 

John

[MikeCampbell]

Running down Flair's previous Starrcade victories at Starrcade '93.

Good call, Loss, that's probably his best moment on commentary, although I do like his sign off from Bash at the Beach when the nWo formed "Hulk Hogan, you can go to hell. Straight to hell."

 

How was Tony in the WWF? All I can recall from him is the 1990 Royal Rumble, and one funny exchange with Jesse after Warrior was eliminated and then ran back into the ring and attacked the heels.

 

Tony: Oh, he's a wild man.

Jesse: He's an idiot!

[Jingus]

Schiavone got real, real bad in the later days of WCW. "The greatest night in the history of our sport!" and "the biggest match of all time!" and "sidewalk slam!" and pretty much anything he ever said while bantering with Heenan, were all just awful. Who knows how much of that was burnout and apathy, and how much of it was Bischoff feeding him stupid lines. Of course it didn't help that he was calling terrible product with an ever-worsening series of color commentators who acted like millstones around his neck. There never lived a play-by-play man who could carry Mark Madden to a good call, certainly.

 

But back in his prime? Eh, flip a coin. Sometimes you could tell he was genuinely into this and trying hard. Other times, he was like the announcing equivalent to a Create-A-Wrestler, saying all the obvious things at the obvious times. Saying it well, he had a great voice and was indeed very professional and polished. But he relied more on delivery than content.

 

It's sometimes a bit obvious that he used to be a baseball announcer, he still had a lot of the ballpark tendencies in how he called things. In baseball, you've got a pretty narrow range of things that can happen; it's one of the slower sports, and certainly one of the most rigidly structured. It's got little of the unpredictable, chaotic energy of basketball or football, where there's a thousand different plays that the athletes can try. In baseball, you've got a very limited number of things that can happen: either the batter hits the ball (and it lands in play or not, and the defense catches it or not) or he doesn't (strike or ball) and that's about it. With such a small number of possible outcomes to every individual action in the game, baseball announcers tend to be hype men, armed with a quiver full of repetitive cliches which they try to say in an exciting manner. It's hard to explain in articulate terms how that bled over into Schiavone's wrestling tenure, but I can hear it in his words. He tended to try to polish every match in a similar manner, whether it was a diamond or a turd.

[flyonthewall2983]

I'm sure Tony going to WWE had something to do with the Turner purchase of the Crockett territory, since he started around that time frame. I liked him up until his catch-phrases became all too familiar and annoying. I'd argue he had better chemistry with Ventura than either Monsoon or McMahon.

[Strummer]

He was awesome at Summerslam 89 and Bash at the Beach 96.

 

You could always tell he loved the old Crockett guys and seemed to lose a bit of enthusiasm when Hogan and company came in 1994. He didn't mesh well with Heenan at all because he never sold his jokes or set him up. He seeemed legit annoyed with him most of the time. He clearly loved Dusty because he would just let him ramble on and laugh it off. And Mark Madden treated the fans like they were idiots. Not in a "Hey let me dumb in down for you ya dumb marks" way but "I'm above this shit, I'm way smarter than everyone here!" type way

[Jingus]

It's interesting, how WCW's color commentators got worse and worse in practically a straight downward line. First you had guys like Cornette or Terry Funk doing that job, and even though their announcing wasn't as strong as their promos they were still damn good at it. Then Jesse came in; and he was good, but not nearly as great as during his heyday in the 80s. Dusty floated in and out of commentary positions at various times, and well, it's Dusty and he comes with both good and bad aspects. Then it was Heenan, who usually didn't give a shit and was phoning it in. Then Mongo, who was harmless enough in his clownish ways, but utterly incoherent half the time. Then came Larry Z, with some of the lamest catchphrases and jokes you'd ever heard, and who actively hurt some of the matches by acting condescending towards those in the ring. And finally Mark Cunting Madden, the worst color commentator I've ever heard in my life. Seriously, every single nobody I've ever had as an announcing partner during my indy days was inevitably a much better color guy than Madden. Wrestlers who'd never announced in their lives stepped up to the mic and were instantly far superior to that braying jackass. Even in the anarchic delirium of WCW 2000, it's still astonishing that this worthless cocksucker actually called every Nitro and PPV for a goddamn year straight.

[Victator]

I'm a big fan of Tony. When he cared I think he was one of the best. I preferred his low key delivery over the more bombastic nature of Jim Ross. I think his style made it easier to sit thru boring or outright bad matches.

 

He was not good with Heenan but Heenan was pretty bad by 95. I thought him and Dusty were a great team. Dusty had such enthusiasm that it was contagious.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's interesting, how WCW's color commentators got worse and worse in practically a straight downward line. First you had guys like Cornette or Terry Funk doing that job, and even though their announcing wasn't as strong as their promos they were still damn good at it. Then Jesse came in; and he was good, but not nearly as great as during his heyday in the 80s. Dusty floated in and out of commentary positions at various times, and well, it's Dusty and he comes with both good and bad aspects. Then it was Heenan, who usually didn't give a shit and was phoning it in. Then Mongo, who was harmless enough in his clownish ways, but utterly incoherent half the time. Then came Larry Z, with some of the lamest catchphrases and jokes you'd ever heard, and who actively hurt some of the matches by acting condescending towards those in the ring. And finally Mark Cunting Madden, the worst color commentator I've ever heard in my life. Seriously, every single nobody I've ever had as an announcing partner during my indy days was inevitably a much better color guy than Madden. Wrestlers who'd never announced in their lives stepped up to the mic and were instantly far superior to that braying jackass. Even in the anarchic delirium of WCW 2000, it's still astonishing that this worthless cocksucker actually called every Nitro and PPV for a goddamn year straight.

Why do you say Jesse was not as good 92-4 as he was in the 80s?

 

Having watched all of PPVs in the past two years, I think Ventura was ON FIRE during this period.

[Strummer]

I think the general consensus at the time was that Jesse seemed more captivated by the WCW product than the cartoonish WWF of the 80s. WCW had longer, instense matches and heels actually won big matches which Jesse of course loved (in kayfabe)

[Loss]

I liked Jesse under Watts, probably because Watts was always on him to stop talking about side topics and stay focused on calling the match. But Jesse in '93 is the opposite of on fire. He talks politics too much and his obsession with Texicans is weird.

[Jingus]

Jesse always seemed to me like he was in cruise control in WCW. He didn't just completely give up like Heenan would later, but there definitely seemed to be an element of him coasting at times. And I thought he never had great chemistry with any of WCW's play-by-play guys, nothing that touched his rapport with Vince and Gorilla. Admittedly, I'm far from an expert on early-90s WCW and could've just missed a lot of his best work, but I never heard anything out of him in that company which approached his level of work on the early Wrestlemanias.

[Cox]

I think it's been said that Tony Schiavone didn't really work well with Heenan and Ventura because he came from a completely different school of wrestling announcing. He wasn't as good setting up their jokes and wasn't good at banter. He wasn't meant to play a straight man for a comedy routine, and he came from a sports background, and a territory that treated itself pretty seriously. It's why he didn't really last in WWF and why he never developed strong chemistry with the former WWF guys. I think he probably could have developed good chemistry with Tenay, but he also allegedly felt threatened that Tenay would one day take his job.

[sek69]

Didn't Tony leave for the WWF because he was expecting to get some production job that went (I think) to Jim Ross? Either way, he just didn't fit in with their style at all. Vince likes his announcers to be more of an in your face type, Tony's approach came off like a librarian at a metal concert.

 

As far as his style goes, I can see how it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, but I liked it probably because he was the voice of the first wrestling show I watched on a regular basis. He always cracked me up as the put-upon host of the show trying to maintain a serious tone while David Crockett was marking out like a five year old, then in interview segments it seemed Flair and Cornette would have a weekly contest to get him to crack up on camera. I agree that once Hogan and Friends came in to WCW, you could see Tony no longer gave a shit anymore. He spent over a decade as a Serious Wrestling Announcer as contrast to those wacky WWF guys, and now the king of those wacky guys was in his company and he clearly wasn't enjoying having to put the guy over. That's why the end of Bash of the Beach is one of his all time great moments, you get the impression he finally got the chance to say on air what he'd been saying mentally since 1994.

 

I always wonder why no other company ever brought him back other than that awful "shoot" promo he did in TNA. He must have soured on the business, since I can't imagine being a small market sports radio host/minor league baseball commentator are going to get a guy lots of disposable income.

[Loss]

Steve Beverly of Matwatch (a now-defunct newsletter) had the ear of Jim Herd at the time. He was always telling Herd the TBS show on Saturdays would be better with only one announcer, and that Ross was the best guy for the job. So Schiavone left in anger to go to the WWF.

 

WCW announcing in the early 90s is interesting in that when it's Ross and Schiavone paired, they seem to be in competition with each other during broadcasts. When Ross and Ventura were paired, it was obvious they couldn't stand each other. When Schiavone and Ventura were paired, they seemed to like each other, but would rather not focus on calling the match.

 

Jim Ross in particular didn't seem to play well with others during this time and endured a healthy dose of criticism for giving himself too much face time on WCW TV (he was also a producer on most shows where he announced) and overexposing himself by hosting so many of the shows.

[Cox]

Steve Beverly of Matwatch (a now-defunct newsletter) had the ear of Jim Herd at the time. He was always telling Herd the TBS show on Saturdays would be better with only one announcer, and that Ross was the best guy for the job. So Schiavone left in anger to go to the WWF.

Which of course, led to the funny Schiavone story where a friend of Beverly's had competed on Who Wants to be a Millionaire and lost when they had called Beverly for their lifeline and he had given the wrong answer. So Schiavone, on Nitro probably 8-10 years after Beverly had made that call, Schiavone says, "Mexico is bordered to the south by Guatemala, not Nicaragua, as everybody knows," the question Beverly had gotten wrong.

[Gregor]

So Schiavone, on Nitro probably 8-10 years after Beverly had made that call, Schiavone says, "Mexico is bordered to the south by Guatemala, not Nicaragua, as everybody knows," the question Beverly had gotten wrong.

There's no way it was that much later. Millionaire didn't debut until the late '90s.

[Loss]

Right, and Tony left for the WWF in the late 80s.

[kjh]

Didn't Schiavone try to get the Executive Producer job Eric Bischoff ended up getting in early 1993? I imagine being passed over for a less experienced and inferior announcer likely helped lead to his later apathy.

[KrisZ]

I dug the Schiavone/Kevin Sullivan team on Worldwide in 1991 but the best announce team was the Lance/Freebirds team.

[Bix]

Schiavone was indeed up for the Executive Producer job.

 

As far as the Steve Beverly thing goes, his version is that TBS was going to make the move of having separate solo lead announcers for TBS and syndication. TBS's Jeff Carr wasn't sure which of the two main announcers should get which job. Beverly was in favor of Ross for TBS (which was becoming the priority after the buyout) because he had the stronger personality. After one set of tapings under the new arrangement, Schiavone quit over what he saw as a demotion and solo hosts idea was dropped, with Lance Russell effectively hired to replace Schiavone.

[JerryvonKramer]

I liked Jesse under Watts, probably because Watts was always on him to stop talking about side topics and stay focused on calling the match. But Jesse in '93 is the opposite of on fire. He talks politics too much and his obsession with Texicans is weird.

Jesse always seemed to me like he was in cruise control in WCW. He didn't just completely give up like Heenan would later, but there definitely seemed to be an element of him coasting at times. And I thought he never had great chemistry with any of WCW's play-by-play guys, nothing that touched his rapport with Vince and Gorilla. Admittedly, I'm far from an expert on early-90s WCW and could've just missed a lot of his best work, but I never heard anything out of him in that company which approached his level of work on the early Wrestlemanias.

 

But this is the thing, Jesse on cruise control was very funny.

 

The pairing with Jim Ross in 92, for whatever reason, didn't click. They didn't have chemistry, and Jesse was weirdly on his best behaviour, talking about Edouard Carpentier and generally being into the matches. Ventura and JR were solid as a combo, but not exactly the "dream team" you might expect them to be.

 

Come '93 and JR left for NY, and it's Jesse and Schiavone.

 

Now this is the thing, someone else mentioned it: Tony just didn't get the antagonistic play-by-play vs. color man dynamic from WWF. This must have been obvious to Jesse after they did one show together. And this is where, in my view the GENIUS of the Jesse / Tony pairing works so well. Tony never gets it, he always sounds genuinely irritated and rattled, almost like it is a shoot/ legit situation. And the more he gets that reaction out of Tony, the more and MORE Jesse pushes him. I think it's laugh out loud funny at times. When Jesse is ripping on Erik Watts and Tony is scrambling to make the save or defend him. When Jesse is claiming that Schiavone hits his kids or cheats on his wife.

 

Ventura might have kinda lost interest in what was going on in front of him, he was picking up a massive paycheck, but 93 wasn't the best year in ring for WCW, so the intriguing dynamic between the announcers makes a LOT of the crapper matches on those PPVs watchable. If you click the link in my sig, you'll see a lot of my mini-reviews from '93 mainly talk about the commentary rather than the matches.

 

When Heenan came in 94, it must have felt like a kick in the teeth for Ventura who was sort of relegated -- kind of a reversal of 80s WWF when Ventura was number 1 colour man and Heenan the sub/ number 2. I read Ventura had beef with Hogan so left around that time anyway.

 

I'll accept that Ventura and Vince is probably the BEST or most entertaining pairing, but I'd probably take Jesse with Schiavone over Jesse with Monsoon, and I like Jesse and Monsoon a lot.

 

I think I'd take Ventura over Heenan on color too, if push came to shove. I enjoyed Ventura in 92-3 ALOT better than I've enjoyed Heenan in 94-5. Tony doesn't get Heenan either, but for whatever reason, it's never as amusing as it is with Jesse. I think because Jesse could flat out bully Tony, whereas Heenan is "the weasel", so Tony had a bit more fight back.

 

Also, yeah Schiavone was continually passed over and shat on by WCW despite his years of loyalty. Must have been tough for him to work under Eric Bischoff.

[Bob Morris]

I agree that Schiavone just wasn't a good fit for the dynamic that WWF always wanted to portray on it shows during the 80's and early to mid 90's. I do think Schiavone had some good work at times during the Monday Night Wars era, but then got into a lot of hyperbole, although some of that may have been fed to him... and honestly, it didn't sound like he was that enthused, anyway.

 

But Schiavone did have his moments in which he really did a good job. Great American Bash '96 was one in which he did a great job of commentary and you could tell he and Dusty Rhodes were having the time of their lives calling the Benoit/Sullivan match. I also loved how he played up the Flair and Anderson vs. McMichael and Greene match about how McMichael left Chicago for Green Bay for the money, then it rang true in the booking of the match. He may not have gotten along with Bobby Heenan, but when he describes Heenan shaking hands with McMichael, his reaction sounds more like he's selling it rather than a dislike for Heenan.

 

And then when they did the spot of the Outsiders putting Eric Bischoff through a table, he and Dusty both did a great job selling it.

 

As far as other announcers go, Jim Ross seemed to have good chemistry with Lance Russell and Jim Cornette, and he was generally fine with Jerry Lawler for the initial part of his WWF run with him (although Lawler really got annoying during the bad booking period of 1999 and at times Ross seemed annoyed with him).

 

Regarding WWF combos... Gorilla and Bobby were entertaining but I don't know if they would be the best on commentary. Gorilla and Jesse had good chemistry but at times Gorilla seemed bored. Vince and Jesse had good chemistry but, in their latter years, it was pretty clear they were getting annoyed with each other.

 

Honestly, I thought Vince McMahon and Bobby Heenan were a good combination. Sure, Vince was going into over-the-top mode with his announcing at that point, but it worked well with Heenan as it made Vince the perfect guy for Heenan to drop one-liners on. They also were both good at getting serious when it came time to do so.

[Log]

Didn't Schiavone try to get the Executive Producer job Eric Bischoff ended up getting in early 1993? I imagine being passed over for a less experienced and inferior announcer likely helped lead to his later apathy.

There's an all-time "what if". Gotta think things would have been a little different for WCW in the 90's.