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On paper, both seemed like good ideas

Huh?

How were either on paper good ideas?

 

Both really felt like the kind of Konnan bringing in Shima Xion and Danielson to AAA type foolishness. Helmsley takes the role of Konan: guy who watches tape and reads sheets but with little to no understanding of whats taking place on those tapes, no sense of what the pimped people are that he's bringing in and what the actual product that he has that he's bringing that talent into.

 

It's the WWE, so Pena isn't dead yet but everything I've read about HHH's post retirement approach is super Konan-esque.

My point was that they normally sign people based on size/physical appearance who have no track record. Mistico at least had a track record. You can make whatever argument you want about how he has been booked, but signing a guy because he was WOTY in the WON is a departure from how Vince normally does business.

 

I'm not sure how bringing in Kharma didn't seem like a great idea. I still think it was, as I'm sure when she comes back, she'll be a star.

 

 

Yeah neither is how the WWE normally does buisness.

Which was my point. Signing well regarded US indy talent like Danielson and Shima Xion and not regimmicking them is not how Antonio Pena did buisness either. Doesn't neccesarily make it smart.

 

I like Danielson, Xion, Mistico and Kharma but I don't think the first two neccesarily looked like good ideas "on paper" in AAA, and don't think the last two looked good on paper for the WWE.

 

1) Mistico:

 

I don't have a ton of problems with how Mistico is doing in WWE, I think he is doing well in role of replacemnt for "What Up?" dancing face Killings. And he's been protected alot better than Killings. I don't have a ton of problems with the way he's being booked. They've invested alot in him and are putting a ton of booking effort to get behind him. No problem with that.

 

Perhaps while I'm laid up I can do a long Mistico/Sin Cara thread. He is a super interesting story.

 

According to Meltzer 20 % of Raw audience is of Mexican American descent (I don't know if he meant RAW or the WWE as whole) and they've been talking forever about needing a replacement in line for when Rey retires. On some level we always treat it as dumb when people bring in Luger to recreate Hogan. It's built on not understanding the uniqueness of Hogan or the skills that Luger actually brings to table.

 

I've said this a bunch of times before but:

 

Mistico was the WON WOTY, for being a giant fucking draw. Not for being the most spectacular highflyer on a lucha show, not for being the most spectacular highflyer when he travels to work Japanese shows, not for being a great underdog worker (he for the most part works from above not from below), but for being a giant fucking draw.

 

Rocky Maivia was the biggest drawing US brawler of the last two decades, if someone looked at that and decided they wanted to bring him brought him in to replace a retiring Stan Hansen----would you say "that makes sense on paper".?

 

Signing Maivia and being surprised when he isnt Hansen doesn't make you look smart.

Signing Maivia to replace Hansen doesn't "look good on paper"

 

Maivia like Mistico is a pro and I imagine he could adjust.

 

That said bringing a guy in with no understanding of who he is and then being dissapointed is the opposite of "makes sense on paper".

 

2) Kharma

 

The WWE diva's division is built around underwear models who are hired to create a more pleasant backstage enviroment.

That's its purpose.

When one of them gets too uppity, the promotion can amuse themselves by booking he as Dump (evil fat girl) and driving her into an eating disorder.

To actually use Kharma, I imagine means that you have to radically change the division to meet her needs. Does the fed have any intention of doing that?

 

 

When someone says a signing "looks good on paper" my asssumption is that they mean the person signed is talented guy who you can easily slip into the mix, not a guy who you have to change your booking to accomodate.

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I actually think Mistico was a really, really bad signing by WWE, especially on paper. Not because he won't move merch, can't get over or isn't good enough. More so because WWE has never given a piss about Cruiserweights, wrestling takes a backseat to talking & he didn't even speak English. So, on paper, you had a guy that has to get over on look/moves alone and can only communicate, initially, with Primo & Chavo, both of whom were jobbers that barely made TV.

 

I'm not sure if the thinking process went beyond "we need a new Mysterio, this guy is popular and wears a mask."

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Mistico was the WON WOTY, for being a giant fucking draw. Not for being the most spectacular highflyer on a lucha show, not for being the most spectacular highflyer when he travels to work Japanese shows, not for being a great underdog worker (he for the most part works from above not from below), but for being a giant fucking draw.

Tom,

 

Excuse my ignorance but as no one is just a giant fucking draw magically, what elements do you think made Mistico a giant fucking draw?

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Mistico was the WON WOTY, for being a giant fucking draw. Not for being the most spectacular highflyer on a lucha show, not for being the most spectacular highflyer when he travels to work Japanese shows, not for being a great underdog worker (he for the most part works from above not from below), but for being a giant fucking draw.

Tom,

 

Excuse my ignorance but as no one is just a giant fucking draw magically, what elements do you think made Mistico a giant fucking draw?

 

 

There is alot that went into Mistico's draw.

 

Like I said given how commited the WWE is to the Sin Cara project, he's a guy who probably deserves a full thread of his own.

 

 

But at most basic level there is him and the booking.

 

Him:

 

He's a charismatic guy who hits his stuff cleanly and he worked as a guy from above in a real way that would appeal to Resident Evil in the Goldberg/Tiger Mask sense "matches from an overall kayfabe sense, the construction in them never fails to give off the impression that his opponents have trouble with him and he is the better wrestler. And truly, it can not be any other way for the most part because he was on such an obvioulsy higher level. Everything here is all important in building up the perception he gives to the audience...invincibility ". He pulls that off well.

 

Booking:

The Resident Evil "Tigermask/Goldberg" gimmick also needs good booking. CMLL because they don't do lots of big angles and does things slowly, never gets the credit they deserve for how good their booking is and their skills at moving guys up and down card. They understood exactly how to build Mistico up, line up the right opponents and protect his gimmick.

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Yeah but Punk jobbing wasn't a big deal because he had Miz up for the G2S and that was the debut of "Little Jimmy's Finale" so it was a big visual moment (the way the Miz slipped the full nelson on so smoothly out of the fireman's carry helped).

 

And thanks Tom. I was wondering what it was past the booking.

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Not that I disagree with anything TomK is saying, but there's another half to the Antonio Pena approach that needs to be mentioned, as best said by Jose Fernandez:

 

He was a guy that would give everybody a chance. If you were good looking but a bad worker, you'd get your chance to work with world class professionals to get better. If you were a good worker with no charisma (or at least his vision of charisma), you'd put on a mask and get your chance to put on good performances.

It's not just that Mistico and Amazing Kong - as they were - weren't natural fits for WWE as is. It's that despite not being natural fits, there was no attempt made to find ways to fit them in effectively, instead just throwing them out there as is and expecting that what worked for them in one setting would work just as well in a completely different one. There are reasons why you would want to hire them, but absolutely no thought was put into how you would use them in this setting.

 

Sin Cara was never going to be booked as Tiger Mask or Goldberg in WWE, and you'd be stupid to try and do that. But he is a guy who can work underneath against rudo brawlers effectively. Booking him as spectacular high-flyer Rey misses the point, but booking him as underdog Rey who gets the shit kicked out of him by heavyweights and then catches them off-guard with his flying is something he can do that fits in WWE. I also thought his brief rudo tease last year was a lot of fun, so if you need him to work on top, heel Sin Cara wouldn't have been a terrible approach, either.

 

Kharma kinda undermines the whole reason the Divas are there, but I think Tom is putting too much stock in the "humiliating uppity girls by booking them as Dump" thing, since that seems to have been phased out of the playbook after the Piggie James angle blew up in their faces. Neither Maria or Melina got the public humiliation treatment, they were just fired outright. So with that out of the way, having one woman around who the guys on the roster don't want to bang probably doesn't upset the status quo that much. Besides which, Kharma blowing up in their face didn't have anything to do with her inability to fit in, anyway.

 

But the larger point is that the HHH projects aren't so much guys who can't fit into WWE as guys who got hired due to perceived value with no thought given as to what they would actually be able to do for the company.

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While I agree with this, it's hard for me to think of another case where a wrestler who made his name elsewhere was approached about bringing someone else in to work his style and make him look good. There was an attempt to make him fit in effectively.

True, but as I've gone over before, bringing in Averno to work with Sin Cara isn't really a long term solution. I like Averno, and it'll be interesting to see what he can do in WWE other than carry Sin Cara (if he ever shows up), but if Sin Cara is just having the same old matches in his comfort zone against the guy he worked them best against...well, then what? Where does he go from there? He still hasn't adapted his style to work with anyone else, and WWE isn't going to change the company style to accommodate him like CMLL did. It's not a bad idea, but I don't see how it's going to help him fit in in WWE.

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But he is a guy who can work underneath against rudo brawlers effectively.

He's a guy who works from above. I'm not saying he doesn't eat offense, everyone eats offense. Goldberg eats offense. But he still works from above.

 

On some level there are two intersting things that happen in the bad Chavo match: (1)Chavo sandbags Mistico on Mistico's finisher ( which is a spot Rey has been using as a near fall move for awhile) (2) Mistico is at a loss at what to do during the section of match where Mistico eats punches and the audience yells "Chavo Sucks".

 

Thats what he critically needs to learn. I assume he is professional and dedicated and will figure that out but that's the thing he needs to learn.

 

While I agree with this, it's hard for me to think of another case where a wrestler who made his name elsewhere was approached about bringing someone else in to work his style and make him look good. There was an attempt to make him fit in effectively.

He was originally thrown out with no thought and no sense of who he is.

I said they threw him out there played the role they formerly had Killings play: guy who was nothing but highspots strung together. That's not what Mistico is, but it's not like that was a role that played to Killings strengths or that he was especially comfortable with.

 

So it's not like throwing a guy out there and telling him to do something that isn't what he does is somehow unusual. What is unusual is that they acknowledged that there was a problem ( I'm not sure if they have any understanding of what the problem is) , and they committed their booking to trying to work around the problem. Mistico is a HHH project and it's pretty clear that they are willing to go all in on that project in a way that they normally don't.

 

Looking at bringing in Averno really shows the level of commitment. Making an attempt to help someone fit in effectively is not something they ever do. My original point was I didn't have a problem with the booking but the signing wasn't something that looked "smart on paper".

 

True, but as I've gone over before, bringing in Averno to work with Sin Cara isn't really a long term solution. I like Averno, and it'll be interesting to see what he can do in WWE other than carry Sin Cara (if he ever shows up

 

Brining in Averno as guy who eats Mistico's offense really well makes sense on some level. But on the other hand why should the WWE audience care about anyones ability to beat Averno? The audience chants "Chavo sucks" and gives heat to whoever Chavo was punching. How are they going to establish Averno enough that the audience will yell "Averno sucks"?

 

Like I said I need to do a full Mistico and EMLL 21st Century booking thread.

 

Reducing Averno to being the guy who makes Mistico's stuff look best is really simplistic.

 

The thing that people forget about Averno is that he held trios belt with Satanico, partnered with Satanico in multiple challenges to tag title holders Ultimo Guerrero/Rey Bucanero,and I think he had a title match opposite Santo all before Mistico was debuted (title match with Santo may have been post Mistico debut). I don't know if he won the tag belts before he first worked Mistico or not.

 

He wasn't Satanico, wan't Santo. He wasn't a "consecrated" main eventer. Not a veteran so respected that the crowd will turn on a rookie for beating or getting too much offense on him. But he was a guy who was high enough on the card that dominating him on offense meant something.

 

I'm doing a lousy job explaining this; he was an established heel but not someone the audience was emotionally invested in (Kane but not Taker).

 

Who the fuck is Averno to your WWE audience? Why does him eating your offense spectacularly mean anything to them?

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Yes, please, do the thread. Because I'm still not seeing why it was a bad idea to sign Sin Cara.

 

Rey is breaking down. They need a new Hispanic draw that can move merchandise. It has nothing to do with the type of character or wrestler that Mistico was. It has everything to do with him being Mexican and wearing a mask that can be replicated and sold. So they found someone with a track record of drawing and brought him in. I'm not saying the mask and being Hispanic are the entirety of Rey's appeal, but that's the role Sin Cara was brought in to fill.

 

And I'm not sure why they have to establish that beating Averno means something. Did WCW establish that beating Jerry Flynn or Hugh Morrus meant something? The key was Goldberg, not the opponent. If Averno came in, it would just be someone he can have good matches with, someone that will make him look really good. I'm not sure why Averno needs to be any more established than that, the same way that most enhancement talent hasn't been established as long as pro wrestling has been around.

 

And I don't think the definition of something not looking good on paper is being able to point to negatives as well as positives. There were negatives and positives to bringing Hogan back in 2002. He wasn't a good fit, and they tried to make him fit into a style that required him to wrestle long main events. He was put into a midcard tag role, which probably wasn't the best use of him either. Does that mean bringing Hogan back was a bad idea on paper?

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And I'm not sure why they have to establish that beating Averno means something. Did WCW establish that beating Jerry Flynn or Hugh Morrus meant something? The key was Goldberg, not the opponent. If Averno came in, it would just be someone he can have good matches with, someone that will make him look really good. I'm not sure why Averno needs to be any more established than that, the same way that most enhancement talent hasn't been established as long as pro wrestling has been around.

Goldberg was totally destroying guys like Morrus and Flynn. I don't think Sin Cara's going to be booked to win matches in under two minutes, so he's going to be spending long portions of the match being beaten up. It looks bad to be beaten up by someone who hasn't really proven anything, although this might not be as big a factor as it would have been, say, fifteen years ago. Averno wouldn't be the same kind of enhancement talent.

 

How over is Sin Cara? Is he over enough for fans to want to see him come back and win, regardless of his heel opponent?

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HHH's acting tonight was Emmy worthy. Between his selling of Nash hitting him in the back to his HBK style faint, good stuff. I wonder if he'll be like Angle and come back from a broken neck?

 

Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed that. When it happened, I had a mental image of HHH studying the HBK-Owen angle like it was the Zapruder film to get the flop right.

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Rey is breaking down. They need a new Hispanic draw that can move merchandise. It has nothing to do with the type of character or wrestler that Mistico was. It has everything to do with him being Mexican and wearing a mask that can be replicated and sold. So they found someone with a track record of drawing and brought him in. I'm not saying the mask and being Hispanic are the entirety of Rey's appeal, but that's the role Sin Cara was brought in to fill.

I think this is the crux of the problem. Before coming to WWE, Rey had been working in the U.S. for about seven years. They didn't just want someone who can wear a mask and move merchandise like Rey does, they wanted someone who could work like him too and would be less of a headache than the demanding and injury prone prima donna that he was replacing. From that perspective, the signing has been a failure.

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Nash's facial expressions and Hunter's "fainting" had me rolling tonight.

 

 

http://www.411mania.com/411mania_images/wr...angrybs1011.jpg

At least that was hilariously bad. I found HHH's opening promo was painfully bad (in fact, I'm surprised I haven't seen that point mentioned elsewhere). I think it was John who said how limiting HHH's acting ability is. Spot on.

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I think this is the crux of the problem. Before coming to WWE, Rey had been working in the U.S. for about seven years. They didn't just want someone who can wear a mask and move merchandise like Rey does, they wanted someone who could work like him too and would be less of a headache than the demanding and injury prone prima donna that he was replacing. From that perspective, the signing has been a failure.

Can you elaborate on Rey becoming a headache and a prima donna ? Are there any specific reasons, or is it just a global attitude he developped in the later years ? I wasn't aware of that.

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Can you elaborate on Rey becoming a headache and a prima donna ? Are there any specific reasons, or is it just a global attitude he developped in the later years ? I wasn't aware of that.

Bah, overblown BS.

The gist of everything i've always heard boils down to Rey at various points wanting to take time off, the WWE agreeing to let him take time off, the WWE begging him not to go last minute because they needed him, the WWE promising him this & that if he sticks around and then Rey actually wanting to hold them to their word and being labled "a headache" because of it.

 

There was the example a year or 2 ago whear Rey was going to take a vacation but they promised him a long run with I think the IC title if he stuck around but then shortly into his run they tried to get him to drop the belt and he wouldn't do it.

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Question... Would bringing back the cruiserweight division strictly to accommodate Misticos strength of working from above with heels built specifically to work Mistico and eat his offense be a good idea, or do you cross your fingers that he learns to work outside of his comfort zone as a traditional underdog babyface?

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But he is a guy who can work underneath against rudo brawlers effectively.

He's a guy who works from above. I'm not saying he doesn't eat offense, everyone eats offense. Goldberg eats offense. But he still works from above.

Percy Pringle was a guy who worked as ruddy faced, blonde haired, hammy, flamboyantly gay dude. That's not the character they wanted managing The Undertaker, so they took the part they needed (hamminess) and changed everything else. YMMV on the results, but my point is that if you're not going to book Sin Cara as Tiger Mask/Goldberg dominant guy, you could at least watch him get the shit kicked out of him by Perro Jr. and then try focus on the other things he can do well.

 

Question... Would bringing back the cruiserweight division strictly to accommodate Misticos strength of working from above with heels built specifically to work Mistico and eat his offense be a good idea, or do you cross your fingers that he learns to work outside of his comfort zone as a traditional underdog babyface?

It should be noted that Sin Cara as Sayama is really something I have no desire to see, but in terms of getting your money's worth from your investment in the guy, yeah, that's not a bad idea.

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There was the example a year or 2 ago whear Rey was going to take a vacation but they promised him a long run with I think the IC title if he stuck around but then shortly into his run they tried to get him to drop the belt and he wouldn't do it.

This is where Dolph Ziggler's push (and the IC title as it had gained momentum with Rey and the Jericho feud) first went off the rails. They wanted to put the belt on him after their SummerSlam match, and instead he lost like 2 or 3 high profile rematches and looked like a guy who couldn't win the big one. Then Rey dropped the belt to John Morrison, and when Ziggler eventually won it nobody cared.

 

On Mistico, they signed him to make money, bottom line. Everything else is secondary to how much money they can make with him. Yes, he would have been better off with 6+ months in FCW learning the style, but neither side was going to go for that. It wasn't like a Del Rio situation where they lie to the guy and tell him he won't have to do developmental......Mistico was the biggest star in Mexico. For better or worse he needed to be fast tracked. And if making money > relative artistic merit, by all accounts he's been a success so far. And he's been a success while not speaking and looking pretty crappy in the ring a lot of the time. He can only improve as he gets more comfortable......so I'm really failing to see how this was a bad signing.

 

And re: Averno. I'd look at him as an Undertaker "monster of the month" challenger. He doesn't need to be established beyond, "I was your rival in Mexico, and I've come to America to beat you!". It would help if they had a hispanic heel manager to reveal as being behind bringing in the Sin Cara Negro and Avernos of the world to challenge Sin Cara. In fact, I think they should really just pattern Sin Cara after face Undertaker of the mid 90's and book him off in his own little corner of the company, at least until he's better adapted.

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