Ric Flair (sigh)

[kjh]

John, where Herd fucked up in 1991 was that he fired him before he actually had no showed. I'm sure a lot of fans would have still took Ric's side, but Herd pulling the trigger too soon allowed people to fool themselves into believing he was a martyr.

[evilclown]

Online writing doesn't mean folks need to dumb it down into USA Today length all the time.

This was my argument and I won it. But this piece was written a week and a half ago, so it took some time and forcing the issue up the chain. I thought it was worth the effort. Thanks for all your feedback.

[El-P]

Great article.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Only about 1,000 people actually paid for tix to Clash VI? Sheesh.

 

Remember how Family Guy flopped after it debuted, then got popular after re-runs started airing on cable? Maybe TBS should take the Family Guy approach with 1989 NWA and start replaying it. Soon, a large cult following will develop and the NWA will be re-launched!

[JerryvonKramer]

Steamboat vs. Flair was very badly advertised. We gave it some coverage in our Clash 6 show (WTTBP #34), it's about 16 minutes in when discussing George Scott quitting / being fired in with some further discussion of it here. Remember this wasn't some pissant venue, they were in the New Orleans Superdome -- 900 tickets sold pre-show for a 70,000 stadium. As I said there, I refuse to believe that more than 900 people wouldn't want to see that match in 1989. They did 8,000 in Chicago in February. As much a logistics (why the Superdome?! Why Nola?) and marketing fuck-up as anything else. Scott was not well equipped to book in the TV era -- some have said Scott deliberately sabotaged Clash VI because he disagreed with giving away matches free on TV. With some competent marketing that match should have done 10,000ish at The Omni or Greensboro easily.

 

All that said, Steamboat definitely wasn't as over as he could have been in that run, the crowds are pretty firmly split even by Wrestlewar and they are popping more for the tremendous match than for Steamer himself.

[JerryvonKramer]

This is possibly something that Snowden might have touched on in his article that may have hurt Flair's career in some way: from 87 to 91 it seems that JCP/WCW crowds are basically GAGGING to cheer for Flair. We will talk about this more when we do Clash 10, but it seems to me that from the Garvin feud to the moment he left for WWF, the partisan NWA crowds wanted to cheer for him. They kept him heel all the way through 88 vs. Luger, by 89 there were loads of fans cheering Flair vs. Steamboat. They turned him for the Funk feud and then only gave him 6 months as a face before turning him again in 90. This was surely a mistake. The fans wanted him babyface, but they kept him heel.

 

Given that Flair himself was part of the booking committee for that period, he may have to take some of that blame himself. I'm not clear on whose decision it was to turn him again in Feb 90. Look at the numbers when Flair was face. Bash 89 did 12,500. That's a good crowd for them in 89.

[Loss]

Flair not turning in 1988 or so can be blamed on Dusty. Although before Arn and Tully left and before the Turner buyout, the breakup of the Four Horsemen was an eventual angle Dusty and Crockett were going to run, probably at some point in 1989. It would presumably have Ric Flair as a babyface.

 

Flair turning heel in 1990 can be blamed on Flair. He was the booker at that point and wanted to turn because he preferred working heel, not realizing that at that stage of his career, he was too respected to really be viscerally hated, even if he was great in the role. I think more important than being babyface or heel, Flair just needed to be Flair, which I think probably landed him as more of a tweener. But that would have required some careful booking. 1989-1990 WCW was an incredibly political environment with tons of backstabbing and jockeying for position, and that was starting to eat at Flair anyway. By the end of '89, Herd had decided that the reason they weren't competitive with the WWF was because they pushed Ric Flair on top and he was too old. Others who wanted power and had Herd's ear, notably Jim Ross, pushed for it too.

 

He hadn't reached the breaking point yet, but the stress of being the booker and top star, and also of giving Ric Flair-calibre performances every night, was starting to eat at Flair by that time.

[Matt D]

Why did they put the belt back on him at the beginning of 91 instead of keeping it on Sting? Was it to build towards Luger getting it finally or what?

[Loss]

It was because Sting bombed in the role. Flair wasn't the answer to their problems, but at least the hardcores (which was pretty much all WCW had at this point) liked him as the top guy.

[Matt D]

How badly did things fall off with Sting? Would they have the Starrcade buys yet?

[Loss]

They made the decision around October. They were going to job him at Starrcade. Sting asked if he could at least win the feud before dropping the title to Flair, which is why the title change was done on the January house show. I think they were basing it on declining house show attendance and main events that weren't very good in quality.

[Matt D]

So they decided that Flair would be the Scorpion as early as October?

[Loss]

According to the WON at the time, yes.

[El-P]

Flair should have done the job to Luger in 90, it was the right time.

[Loss]

Flair should have done the job to Luger in 90, it was the right time.

Agreed. I understand why at the time he felt waiting for Sting to come back was the right move, but Flair/Luger had decent momentum on house shows at this time and people were ready to see the two-year Luger chase pay off.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think they should have stuck with Flair (face) vs. Luger (heel) for 90 and then somehow transitioned into Sting vs. Luger.

[jdw]

The Rick Steiner thing was the best for business.

I didn't say that Dusty wasn't an idiot. Only that Ric pulled a power play against the wished of the booker, and won.

 

 

Luger in 1990 was Flair seeing that it made no sense to lose to Luger then because Sting was coming back and the storyline was always for Sting to beat him.

Except that Ric had already given up the book, and if his boss wanted to replace him as champ, that's the right of the boss. Right?

 

Or maybe Ric agrees with Bret and doesn't even know it.

 

1991 was the one where you could argue Ric was in the wrong as if he wasn't going to come back then drop the belt to Barry at the least.

My posts wasn't about right vs wrong.

 

It was to give examples where Ric refused to do what was asked of him. With any other wrestler, they would be slagged. With Ric, he's a Hero in all three... and even in your version he was the hero in two of them.

[jdw]

Not that I disagree with a single word you said about Flair here or in the other posts (I just quoted this one because I wanted to quote so it was clear who I responding to), but this just reminds me of how much that little cheapshot you took at me offended me, and how hypocritical it is.

Slight difference:

 

I supported each of Ric's actions in what you quoted. I was a Flair Fan after all. I hated Dusty at the time, and I hated Herd.

 

Even in hindsight, I agree with Ric on the first two: Dusty and Herd were being stupid. On the third... Ric tried to hold the company up. Herd was a dick, and had dicked people on contracts before (like Steamer), so I don't have a massive problem with Flair trying to dick Herd.

 

The point of my trio of posts were to touch on three things that were either passed over quickly in the piece (Flair's issues with WCW Management in the 1988-91 period, and that they were a two-way street) or slighty wrong (Hogan-Flair in the WWF and WCW). They had nothing to do with Flair's Ego.

[Dylan Waco]

Luger should have gone over Flair in 88. In my view that has a lot to do with why business was down at the front end of 89

[jdw]

John, where Herd fucked up in 1991 was that he fired him before he actually had no showed. I'm sure a lot of fans would have still took Ric's side, but Herd pulling the trigger too soon allowed people to fool themselves into believing he was a martyr.

It's a little confusing whether Herd fired him or Ric breached by no showing, or at least saying he wouldn't show and drop the title. Technically Ric "won" that argument by getting out of the balance of his contract after the short period (i.e. he wasn't able to show up the next night in the WWF).

 

Where Herd fucked up was taking the job.

 

On Flair dropping it... I don't know how one could easily work around Flair taking the position he took. You have a PPV that you're advertising and have built to: Flair vs Lex. Your plan is for Lex to win the title. Ric refuses to do so without an extension. If you don't want to give Ric an extension at the amount he wanted, what do you do? Let Ric work the match and keep the title? "Strip" Ric of the title... and then do what with him the balance of his contract? You can't exactly go on the airwaves and say, "Ric is suspended because he refuses to lose the title". It's kind of fucked up at that point because he's not giving you many options: extension or I refuse to job the title.

 

Again, no sympathy for Herd since he dicked people on contracts, the worst being Steamer, and being a dick on Tully when more than half of Herd's own crew were drunks and dope takers. One gets why Ric wouldn't trust him on an extension down the road. Then again, the extension with a pay cut Ric was offered wasn't unreasonable given WCW was losing money hand over first. No easy solution.

[jdw]

Online writing doesn't mean folks need to dumb it down into USA Today length all the time.

This was my argument and I won it. But this piece was written a week and a half ago, so it took some time and forcing the issue up the chain. I thought it was worth the effort. Thanks for all your feedback.

 

It very much was worth the effort. Good in depth writing is a value for us readers.

[jdw]

Flair not turning in 1988 or so can be blamed on Dusty. Although before Arn and Tully left and before the Turner buyout, the breakup of the Four Horsemen was an eventual angle Dusty and Crockett were going to run, probably at some point in 1989. It would presumably have Ric Flair as a babyface.

Turning him in 1988 would have been a problem since their big storyline for the year, known in advance, was Flair-Luger with Lex the face. That wasn't a bad plan: the fans popped for Lex, and the feud drew. The difficulty in 1988 was that the rest of the company was falling apart, and they had lost a lot of fans already around the country starting the year before. They got semi-lucky that Sting "took off", though that's a relative thing... perhaps it's more accurate is that he was able to step into a Challenger Role at a time when they had no one else (since Lex was being held for summer), and was able to at least keep the bottom from completely falling out.

 

1987 was probably the time to turn him face for a run before letting him go back to his more comfortable heel role. That's the year where the bottom fell out of the Challenger Role after Barry: Brad Armstrong (even if a lot of us like him as a solid worker, he couldn't draw and wasn't a national world title challenger level guy), Jimmy Garvin and Ronnie Garvin (again... we all like him, but he's being asked to draw as a face challenger... hard).

 

Their trick would have been to find a Horseman anchor opposite him if the Horsemen turned on him. Too early for Lex to be the "man" of the Horsemen, and it's clearly not a role for either Arn or Tully.

 

Always thought it was a good one for Ted.

 

 

Flair turning heel in 1990 can be blamed on Flair. He was the booker at that point and wanted to turn because he preferred working heel, not realizing that at that stage of his career, he was too respected to really be viscerally hated, even if he was great in the role.

They also were putting the belt on Sting before the knee blew out, and Flair needed to be a heel for that. Flair was okay with that.

 

Flair in general going back heel wasn't a problem. Timing was a problem: it was probably too soon since he had just turned the prior May/July.

 

On the other hand, time machining back to January 1990, they only really one heel they could run opposite Flair if Flair stayed Face. That would be Lex, who turned heel around the same time Flair turned face. Can you run a nice long Face Flair vs Heel Lex to eat up most of the first part of 1990 before eventually turning Ric heel to face Sting at say Starcade '90? Well... they eventually did fill up most of the first half of 1990 with Flair-Lex, just with them in their natural roles. Didn't do great house show business. The PPV wasn't bad.

 

One would have to rebook Starcade '89 to set it up. But it's perhaps not a bad way to go about it. Don't know when you'd book Flair's turn on Sting, and how you fill out the PPV:

 

Feb: WrestleWar

May: Capital Combat

Jul: Bash

Oct: Havoc

Dec: Starcade

 

Assuming Starcade is Sting over Flair... the Flair-Sting turn would probably make for a good October, if you could find the right match for it.

 

Maybe Lex-Flair like this:

 

Feb: WrestleWar - Lex over Flair for title

May: Capital Combat - Wargames

Jul: Bash - Flair over Lex for the title

 

Don't know who you would team up with Lex if Flair is with the Horsemen (Flair, Sting, Arn and Ole or they really should have brought Tully in or someone else).

 

Then you need to find a heel for Ric to feud with the second half of the year before the turn on Sting.

 

It's complicated.

 

 

John

[KrisZ]

You think rebooking 1990 is something then try and rebook 1987 like you mentioned.

 

You had the UWF buyout which should have given Flair all the feuds he needed for a full year which would've been in multi-man matches since Flair was hurt that year and was being hidden in tags.

 

A UWF faction led by DiBiase with a NWA faction led by Flair going to Starrcade with a title vs. title match could have been something.

[jdw]

You think rebooking 1990 is something then try and rebook 1987 like you mentioned.

 

You had the UWF buyout which should have given Flair all the feuds he needed for a full year which would've been in multi-man matches since Flair was hurt that year and was being hidden in tags.

 

A UWF faction led by DiBiase with a NWA faction led by Flair going to Starrcade with a title vs. title match could have been something.

1987 is easy:

 

Ted comes in as a "face" for a title match with Ric. The rest of the Horsemen turn on Ric, and Ted wins the title. On the interviews Tully dicks it up, JJ gets talks about Flair slipping against Dusty then Nikita and then Barry (always good to name drop the top faces) and needing the Horsemen to always save him (shoot!), Lex has that "I just stand here and look big" look on his face. while Arn does a fiery close to interview that's "it's just business, Ric... it's just business" in theme

 

Ted can talk about how in the 70s everyone talked about how either Flair or DiBiase would be the next dominant champ, that Ric weaseled his way into the title, then used every dirty trick to keep everyone else down... and now the tables have turned. He also can get across that Ric has made an enemy out of every wrestling around the world, and that's he's going to find no friends over in that other locker room (foreshadowing the top faces eventually one-by-one siding with Flair against the Horsemen). Etc, etc, etc.

 

I would have the title change no later than the Bash, which would leave Ted to run as champ from Bash (Jul) to Starcade (Nov)... which may be a little short if the story is red hot. In fact if it is hot, then find a way to extend it... but you also want to avoid that bad taste that Warriors-Arn & Tully caused in Chicago... okay, fuck it... of course you run Starcade '87 in North Carolina and not Chicago.

 

With Ted on top, they could reload the faces that Flair has run through (Dusty, Nikita, Barry) for Ted in addition to Flair-Ted matches... though I think I would save those for post-Starcade, and some additional angle that would have even a Champ Ric looking for revenge (i.e. cage matches).

 

Anyway, if Tully is the big weasel who causes Flair to lose the title to Ted (like he caused Dusty to lose it to Flair), you could roll Flair-Tully matches post-Bash around the horn while Ted vs Other Big Face is the World Title match. Arn & Tully hadn't won the WTT from the R'n'R by the Bash, so that could be postponed.

 

Anyway... 1987 was fairly easy to book if JCP was smart in getting the guys who would be of use to them (largely Ted), or that Vince wouldn't take (The Birds) and letting Vince overpay for the rest (pray that he takes Doc).

 

I really would have avoided NWA vs UWF. I dont' think it's a feud that JCP fans gave a shit about. I cared about a good Birds vs Horsemen feud (or MX & Bubba vs Birds), and didn't care about which promotion they were in. Just take the talent that is of value to you, keep the cities that are of use (which were very few at the time with the shitty economy), and just have a stronger JCP.

[KrisZ]

If you are going to do War Games then you should do NWA vs. UWF where UWF wins that battle then you go to Starrcade where NWA wins the war by taking all the UWF titles.