WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[KrisZ]

Only two people I voted for made it and they were Albano & Dr. Morales of all people. Doc Sr. & Colon almost got in though but damn I'm surprised at some those numbers.

[Childs]

You didn't vote for Cena, Kris? Was that just a matter of figuring he'd get in anyway and apportioning your votes to those who needed them more?

[KrisZ]

I don't vote for wrestlers still in their prime....just not a fan of that.

 

Also Dylan my condolences....Buddy Rose dropped off the ballot

[Chess Knight]

Wow, KANE was taken into consideration?

[KrisZ]

Be afraid be very afraid

 

Edward Loredo ‏@Edinsanantonio

 

@apter1wrestling when Metlzer finally gives me a vote in the HOF, you will get in~! #billforthewohof

[Cox]

To be added to the ballot next year are Bob Armstrong, Dave Brown, Jim Crocket Sr, Jimmy Hart, Takashi Matsunaga, Yuji Nagata, Ken Patera, and Stanley Weston. I expect to see a lot of discussion on this board on Armstrong, Patera, and Hart in particular. Rooting for Dave Brown to make it in, and kind of surprised he wasn't on the ballot earlier.

 

It does go to show you the dearth of quality modern candidates to be added to the ballot when all eight nominees to be added next year are well past the 35/10 guidelines that Dave has set, and at least one of the candidates has been on the ballot before and fallen off.

[Dylan Waco]

I think it shows you that Dave is willing to listen to outside voices pimping candidates.

 

I knew Buddy was going to fall off and predicted it the moment he popped up as a candidate last year. I don't even care that he fell off, I just hate that the criticisms of him were mostly bogus or shortsighted.

 

Seems obvious that Morales got in because he was the one guy all the Lucha voters voted on. Musgrave and I just did a show on the results which I will post shortly, but one thing that we discussed is how obvious it is that slam dunk Lucha candidates are falling short because there is no attempt to rally around singular figures and instead people are just casting ballots in a variety of ways. The funny thing is that I think most of the hardcore and super informed Lucha voters would argue that at least four or five of the candidates from that section should absolutely be in, but by spreading things around it dilutes percentages and there is not uniform "this guy belongs in" pick the way Schmidt had become for historians in recent years.

 

My focus this year will be pushing the argument for Patera. He's a much better candidate than Rose and someone that is very viable IF people are willing to set aside preconceived notions and look at his career.

[FLIK]

Tanahashi 39%

A lot to say about the voting this year but for now i'll just add that I don't think Tanahashi goes in next year either but i'm 100% confident he gets in within the next 5 or so.

[Dylan Waco]

Tanahashi 39%

A lot to say about the voting this year but for now i'll just add that I don't think Tanahashi goes in next year either but i'm 100% confident he gets in within the next 5 or so.

 

 

I'd like to hear what else you have to say about the voting.

 

Dave and I discussed Tanahashi on the show tonight. I made the point that I really wish someone would lay out his case as even though I don't like him as a worker I sometimes think I am selling him short as a star.

[Dylan Waco]

Here is the show Dave and I just did on the the Observer HoF results. Lots of Patera talk, on top of a rundown of those who got in, others who have been added to the ballot, et.

 

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc

[Ricky Jackson]

How did Sexton Hardcastle do this time around?

[Cox]

37%, down from 46% after he retired last year. Despite Dave continuing to try to push him in the WON, I don't think he's going to get in. Dave also weirdly tried to make a case that Sting was a better candidate than the Rock 'n' Roll Express.

[sek69]

I would assume the major thing that screws the lucha guys is there being practically no footage pre 90s. Unless it's someone still active like Atlantis, there's not much for the lucha hardcores to offer as proof that someone is deserving.

[Dylan Waco]

Reading through the issue some thoughts on Dave's comments and notes:

 

I think it's kind of funny that he compares Sting favorably as a star to the RnR's because while Sting was certainly pushed as a main eventer far more often, in terms of drawing money I think it's almost impossible to argue that Sting is a better candidate. Hell Morton was a better draw opposite Flair than Sting was as a solo guy. In the early 90's while SMW's average show did worse than WCW's, they were far more successful as SMW's top faces when you adjust for exposure and the buildings they were running than Sting was at the exact same time. They don't have anything like the Crow Sting period, but they certainly did well as consistent main eventers on Crockett b-shows and elsewhere during an era where sellouts were regular in those markets. You can't say that for Sting. So unless stardom solely means "where they were pushed on the card" I don't see how they can be considered bigger stars in any meaningful sense of the term.

 

His talk about how current wrestlers are going to struggle for a variety of reasons is dead on and I think it is clear that Dave is bringing on other candidates both because of the chatter online and so the ballot can remain full with fewer viable candidates emerging from this era than ever before.

 

I think it's interesting that Dave is conflicted on Tanahashi but so sold on Edge. Ultimately he thinks both should be in, but he didn't vote for Tanahashi and admits that he thinks he needs a few more years. I really do wonder what it is about Edge that makes him such a strong candidate in the eyes of many. I don't think he's an insane guy to have on the ballot or anything, but I struggle to see where he is a clearly better candidate than Jeff Hardy who was one and done on the ballot.

[Dylan Waco]

I would assume the major thing that screws the lucha guys is there being practically no footage pre 90s. Unless it's someone still active like Atlantis, there's not much for the lucha hardcores to offer as proof that someone is deserving.

I really don't think that's much of a factor. I think there are two things that hurt.

 

A. The fact that the super fans don't rally around any one or even two candidates. Everyone wants to get in and there is grave disagreement among the voters about who should get in first/who should be pushed so the vote gets dispersed around. This year Dr. Wagner Sr. was one vote short and hilariously the editor of Superluchas magazine who voted for ten guys left him off. Even more strange Dave sort of worked to downgrade him a bit in his write up which I thought was odd (and to be fair perhaps not entirely intentional). Rather than pushing one or two guys hard like the historians have done with Schmidt and Torres you've got a very wide divergence, with a guy like Steve Sims arguing that LA Park is the most obvious omission from Lucha (which I found bizarre to be frank), while Matt Farmer talks about how big a travesty it is that Caras isn't in and KrisZ pimps Ramirez. The funny thing is that virtually all the Lucha fans would probably agree on at least four of the names on the ballot, but it never really works out. It's just a big split and without consensus , followed by coalescing around a single candidate each year, it's going to be tough for anyone other than Wagner Sr. to get in.

 

B. The second factor is that there are probably a lot of people who vote in the Lucha category that just aren't familiar with much Lucha history at all. I think this is a less a footage thing and more a "we don't know the history thing." People don't know how big a star Villano III is but they know that Atlantis has been around on tv and well positioned for a long time. Same for Blue Panther (who did FAR worse than I expected this year - in fact I apparently know close to HALF of the people who voted for him which is insane). If they knew Villano III or Lagarde or Caras or Ramirez record it's possible they would swing votes to them. But they don't.

[FLIK]

A. The fact that the super fans don't rally around any one or even two candidates. Everyone wants to get in and there is grave disagreement among the voters about who should get in first/who should be pushed so the vote gets dispersed around.

Yup, that's always seemed to be hardcore lucha fandom in a nutshell. In all my years following things I still have no clue who if anyone is considered a consensus pick for best wrestler(s) or best matches. Depending on who you ask you always seem to get varying answers. I always like to go back to the old Smarks Choice greatest ever poll as an example whear MS1 ended up being fairly highly ranked but was a guy i'd never once even heard of at the time despite having been in the hardcore fan community several years by that point.

 

Very diffrent then say Japanese or US wrestling whear even if you're not a fan, if you've followed things online for any decent length of time you'll atleast have cursory knowledge of who most would pick as obvious choices for any particular company or era.

[JNLister]

Just an FYI, the references to ITO in my McManus bio should read ITV. No idea how they got changed, though the printing out/retyping e-mails story mentioned on here would possibly explain it.

[kjh]

I think it's interesting that Dave is conflicted on Tanahashi but so sold on Edge. Ultimately he thinks both should be in, but he didn't vote for Tanahashi and admits that he thinks he needs a few more years. I really do wonder what it is about Edge that makes him such a strong candidate in the eyes of many. I don't think he's an insane guy to have on the ballot or anything, but I struggle to see where he is a clearly better candidate than Jeff Hardy who was one and done on the ballot.

I think Tanahashi is clearly the superior candidate of the two. He's been the biggest star in the Japanese industry for over six years now and has grown into that role. Edge was a very good heel foil for John Cena, but outside of his brief title run in January 2006, he never really moved numbers, while Tanahashi clearly draws female fans to his promotion. The problem with Hardy is though he was the hottest guy in the business for awhile, he's a guy who's viewed as pissing away his potential.

[ohtani's jacket]

Hey, Mick McManus. Nice one. How did Pallo do?

[goodhelmet]

Reading through the issue some thoughts on Dave's comments and notes:

 

I think it's interesting that Dave is conflicted on Tanahashi but so sold on Edge. Ultimately he thinks both should be in, but he didn't vote for Tanahashi and admits that he thinks he needs a few more years. I really do wonder what it is about Edge that makes him such a strong candidate in the eyes of many. I don't think he's an insane guy to have on the ballot or anything, but I struggle to see where he is a clearly better candidate than Jeff Hardy who was one and done on the ballot.

Dave sees Edge in the same light as Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit, as a super worker with multiple **** matches while working on top. While we shit on Edge, Dave praises those same matches. Ironically, it is one of the reasons I think that Buddy Rose should be in. If you are going to push guys as HOFers because they are super workers, nobody deserves to be in more than Buddy Rose.

[Dylan Waco]

There is no question that Dave sees Edge as a much better worker than a lot of us here do, but he always goes out of his way to make the case for him as a star/draw as well. I don't think it's convincing and I suspect it's his way to bolster the case for a guy he just liked as an over all act. But I don't see how he's a good candidate, especially in a world where JYD isn't even in on the ballot.

[Matt D]

Reading through the issue some thoughts on Dave's comments and notes:

 

I think it's interesting that Dave is conflicted on Tanahashi but so sold on Edge. Ultimately he thinks both should be in, but he didn't vote for Tanahashi and admits that he thinks he needs a few more years. I really do wonder what it is about Edge that makes him such a strong candidate in the eyes of many. I don't think he's an insane guy to have on the ballot or anything, but I struggle to see where he is a clearly better candidate than Jeff Hardy who was one and done on the ballot.

Dave sees Edge in the same light as Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit, as a super worker with multiple **** matches while working on top. While we shit on Edge, Dave praises those same matches. Ironically, it is one of the reasons I think that Buddy Rose should be in. If you are going to push guys as HOFers because they are super workers, nobody deserves to be in more than Buddy Rose.

 

Isn't part of the issue that someone who would consider Edge a super worker likely would not consider Buddy Rose one?

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think that is necessarily true. Dave thinks Buddy was a very good if not great worker. But Dave also isn't going to go back and watch any footage now.

[Loss]

As I've said many, many times -- it's not about inducting superworkers. It's about inducting people that those in the biz and the opinion establishment think were superworkers. Dave doesn't want revisionism in his HOF, even when it's valid. That said, Buddy Rose had a good rep then, and he fits the WON criteria. But if you want to make the case to Dave and HOF voters, don't list his great matches. Pull positive things that have been said by people inside wrestling, especially people who were stars in the same era. That's how you make the case.

[cm funk]

There is no question that Dave sees Edge as a much better worker than a lot of us here do, but he always goes out of his way to make the case for him as a star/draw as well. I don't think it's convincing and I suspect it's his way to bolster the case for a guy he just liked as an over all act. But I don't see how he's a good candidate, especially in a world where JYD isn't even in on the ballot.

Other than Cena it's almost impossible to judge people as stars and draws in modern WWE.

 

Edge was a pretty big star in modern WWE, was a good draw I think as far as TV/PPV goes, and was consistently in I'd say a top 5 or 6 spot for a long time. I think he did pretty well as a merch seller (the Rated R shirts seemed pretty popular), and had a degree of crossover success (I'm thinking mainly of Slim Jim choosing him to be their rep). He was without question very over with the audience.

 

But it's really hard to judge modern WWE candidates. Edge is hurt by a lot of things that are totally out of his control. His title wins are meaningless because they came during a time when titles have been devalued across the board. The WWE business model and "machine" style promotion makes it hard to get an accurate gauge on him as a draw. He's without question not a superworker, but was really good in WWE style big matches. Arguably in some of the best and most memorable WWE matches of the last 15 years in that regard, if you count all the big E&C matches, the Foley WM match, the matches with Cena and Taker, etc. His work on tv wasn't everybody's cup of tea, but he definitely delivered when put in big spots

 

I think he's a 60/40 candidate, personally. It wouldn't bother me at all if he didn't get it, but I think there's probably enough there to put him in. And I think with time, unless the wrestling landscape in the states changes dramatically, that he will begin to look like a stronger candidate