Matt D Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 TomK illustrated the best and most obvious reason of Angle getting in so easily: old workers wanted to be lumped in with his legitimacy. He's just like us, gold medal caliber wrestling skills and cutting off the ring." Seems like an easy way to test this hypothesis would be to look at the vote totals. Did Angle do significantly better among current and former wrestlers than among reporters and historians? Also, for the record, Angle got in with exactly the bare minimum of necessary votes in 2004. I don't know where this notion that he got elected in a cakewalk came from. Old wrestlers always talk up Angle. Always. It always bugs me when Bret does it, since it's pretty hypocritical relative to his comments about Flair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheGreatPuma Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Lots of wrestlers and fans love Angle's work. It works for them. Just because it doesn't work sometimes for some smarks doesn't mean it doesn't work for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 TomK illustrated the best and most obvious reason of Angle getting in so easily: old workers wanted to be lumped in with his legitimacy. He's just like us, gold medal caliber wrestling skills and cutting off the ring." Seems like an easy way to test this hypothesis would be to look at the vote totals. Did Angle do significantly better among current and former wrestlers than among reporters and historians? Also, for the record, Angle got in with exactly the bare minimum of necessary votes in 2004. I don't know where this notion that he got elected in a cakewalk came from. Old wrestlers always talk up Angle. Always. It always bugs me when Bret does it, since it's pretty hypocritical relative to his comments about Flair. I'm looking for data, not anecdotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Do I look like Chris? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 TomK illustrated the best and most obvious reason of Angle getting in so easily: old workers wanted to be lumped in with his legitimacy. He's just like us, gold medal caliber wrestling skills and cutting off the ring." Seems like an easy way to test this hypothesis would be to look at the vote totals. Did Angle do significantly better among current and former wrestlers than among reporters and historians? Also, for the record, Angle got in with exactly the bare minimum of necessary votes in 2004. I don't know where this notion that he got elected in a cakewalk came from. Old wrestlers always talk up Angle. Always. It always bugs me when Bret does it, since it's pretty hypocritical relative to his comments about Flair. Say what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Before the dream conversation fades away, I had a dream where Chavo Classic and I went looking for footage of his old matches in a supermarket. It has never crossed my mind to ever watch old Chavo matches, but now all of sudden I have quite the urge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 TomK illustrated the best and most obvious reason of Angle getting in so easily: old workers wanted to be lumped in with his legitimacy. He's just like us, gold medal caliber wrestling skills and cutting off the ring." Seems like an easy way to test this hypothesis would be to look at the vote totals. Did Angle do significantly better among current and former wrestlers than among reporters and historians? Also, for the record, Angle got in with exactly the bare minimum of necessary votes in 2004. I don't know where this notion that he got elected in a cakewalk came from. Old wrestlers always talk up Angle. Always. It always bugs me when Bret does it, since it's pretty hypocritical relative to his comments about Flair. I'm looking for data, not anecdotes. In the case of something like that this data on it's own tells you very little. You would need to know why people voted for certain people, and wrestlers are the absolute least likely group among voters to give reasons publicly for their votes. What we do have are cases of guys in shoots and interviews talking about how none of the guys from the modern era could cut it, or work their style, et. other than Angle. Whatever you think of Angle as a worker or a star, it's hard to see how Angle is a modern day representative of wrestling as worked by Ole Anderson or Jack Brisco. We also have historians who are on record talking about how guys that "tested themselves" in legit competition are more likely to get their votes. So while I have no clue, what the actual data was, but I think it's fair to say that tom's point was likely a factor in Angle's early induction. It was not the only one, as I think there are a couple other obvious ones. 1. He was in the midst of his "prime," and was regularly touted as a super worker during the period by Dave and others. Angle benefited for the same reasons that Jericho did (two consecutive Wrestler of the Year Awards) and Tanahashi did (basically the same thing, plus was touted regularly by Dave as one of the great workers in the history of wrestling). Compare those guys to people like Mistico or Perro Aguayo Jr. or Batista or even Edge who's peaks came before eligibility. and 2. The collapse of Japanese wrestling and U.S. competition. In the past I think it's highly unlikely that Angle would have become the "flavor of the week" to nearly the degree he was, because the worldwide standard was considered higher, and even in the States there was one or more promotions that were deemed relevant with talent to compare him directly to. Angle was seen by some as an era defining worker and star, because he was the guy that hit his full stride when everything else was falling off of a cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 So our pal Davey Richards is off the card for Final Battle. Considering Eddie's still working the show, I'd wager ROH finally got tired of his bullshit rather than assume WWE offered them a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 When Angle was a guest on Steve Austin's podcast, Steve verbally fellated him in regards to his quick ability to pick up the business and how he "worked smarter" in later years. Angle popping the old timers and the boys in the back has always been one of the major reasons his induction was backed. Dylan's reasons are also correct, but it really can't be understated how much Angle's contemporaries and the old timers loved him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Could that be the first instance of NWA/WCW merchandising their wrestlers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 I love that Flair & Luger, and Arn to a lesser extent, give their best babyface smile, while Tully just don't play well with others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 To you it's unwatchable. To me it's decent entertaining stuff that tells a good story I enjoy. JCP is better in tag wrestling until you get to the finish, which is usually garbage. I've said it so many times, but to me, endings are very very important. Dusty's endings are awful and WCW in general continued his trend for years. WWF tags in the 80s had a lot of shitty finishes. It's not exactly Hulk Hogan Legdrops in terms of clean, no bullshit finishes. At a certain point, it seemed like all of them had Conference Finishes, though that often was more of an early 90s thing than an 80s thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 The "Oh god, what did we let these carny bastards and action junkies do to our precious hall of fame." clause. Not really. Dave defends Angle as a HOFer and thinks he was a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mookeighana Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Do I look like Chris? I did look at the relationship between Wrestling Observer Awards and Wrestling Observer HOF: http://indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2013/1...-wrestling.html Angle does well in that measure. Though that's cumulatively and not adjusted for the year of admission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mookeighana Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 WWE 2000-2013: How I learned to stop worrying and love Kane -- http://indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2013/1...2013-stats.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 The "Oh god, what did we let these carny bastards and action junkies do to our precious hall of fame." clause. Not really. Dave defends Angle as a HOFer and thinks he was a good choice. Not exactly: He didn't vote for Angle that year. He feels Angle made the case eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Boricua Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Tis the season for crappy family Christmas cards. Woooh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 1. Kane: 1,518 matches (14 years) ...and they all sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 1. Kane: 1,518 matches (14 years) ...and they all sucked. The match with Big Show and Raven at Mania 17 was a riot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 I guess Mistico is getting wished well soon, Hunico was playing Sin Cara on Raw tonight and the announcers weren't playing it up as an angle or anything (despite Hunico being noticeably bigger + arm sleeve tattoo up to the shoulder). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 Someone on this board has to have a copy of the 2004 HOF issue of the Observer. I want to get to the bottom of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingears Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 I have it. Final total was 105 votes, 60% even. "Kurt Angle was poor among historians (17%), and only 58% among reporters, but through the roof among both groups of wrestlers, including 89% among his peers." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 Looks like it was Angle's peers who really put him over the top. How should this be interpreted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricR Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 The "Oh god, what did we let these carny bastards and action junkies do to our precious hall of fame." clause. Not really. Dave defends Angle as a HOFer and thinks he was a good choice. Not exactly: He didn't vote for Angle that year. He feels Angle made the case eventually. Meltzer also thinks that Angle's TNA has added to and strengthened his legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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