WWF announcing debate mega-thread

[Mad Dog]

JBL was the only reason I watched Smackdown when he was on commentary.

[Jingus]

It's ironic since I started the Bradshaw bashing, but I actually like the guy as a performer. He sometimes brainlocks against certain opponents (if JBL ever had a match against Taker that was worth watching, I haven't seen it) but overall he's a perfectly decent wrestler. When he's not shooting on someone, of course. And to try to keep it relevant to the thread: yeah, he was a pretty damn good color commentator.

 

The only problem I had with Holly's Tough Enough beatdown was the part where he reached his foot through the ropes to kick the dude right in the mouth. That was uncalled for and could've resulted in injury. Everything else? Meh. Chopping someone really really hard is not shooting on them, no matter how many indy worker pussies believe otherwise (I've seen an astounding number of occasions where some vet chopped the crap out of a guy he didn't like and acted afterwards like he'd done something really mean and impressive). I also object to the idea that he somehow "deserved" getting his neck broken against Brock, which is a depressingly common sentiment in the IWC.

 

I don't think "Vader just liked working stiff, you could hit him back and he's fine with that" is totally accurate. Harley Race said (in his book, iirc) that Vader would have quit if someone had hit him as hard as he was hitting Cactus Jack in their matches. And there have certainly been incidents where you can tell that Vader's opponent is getting pissed off at the stiffness and starts lashing back; Flair at Starrcade 93 is the main example I think, but there are others.

[El-P]

It's ironic since I started the Bradshaw bashing, but I actually like the guy as a performer.

Ditto. Well I liked him when nobody cared. I remember really enjoying his match with Jeff Jarrett at NWO 98.

 

I don't think "Vader just liked working stiff, you could hit him back and he's fine with that" is totally accurate. Harley Race said (in his book, iirc) that Vader would have quit if someone had hit him as hard as he was hitting Cactus Jack in their matches. And there have certainly been incidents where you can tell that Vader's opponent is getting pissed off at the stiffness and starts lashing back; Flair at Starrcade 93 is the main example I think, but there are others.

I don't remember who told that story, but here it is. When Vader was doing his left/right barrage in the corner, if you got with the rhythm, it was harmless. So what Vader did was break his own rhythm so he could punch you good. So whoever this guy was got the stiff treatment, punched Vader in the face as a reply, and next time around Vader softly stayed in his rhythm and barely touched the guy.

[El-P]

And there have certainly been incidents where you can tell that Vader's opponent is getting pissed off at the stiffness and starts lashing back; Flair at Starrcade 93 is the main example I think, but there are others.

Hum.. Hansen... "Oh, you're trying to beat the shit out of me ? Ok, where's the eye socket... ok, there."

[FLIK]

Not counting joke reigns like Dave Arquete, to this day I still think Bradshaw is the single most undeserving person to get a major world title run in any company ever. I look back on his Smackdown run on top with nothing but misery & woe...

 

Bradshaw was an office stooge, that's why he finally got a push.

That plus lack of depth & apparently Eddie not handling the pressure of being champ very well.

[Gregor]

I don't remember who told that story, but here it is. When Vader was doing his left/right barrage in the corner, if you got with the rhythm, it was harmless. So what Vader did was break his own rhythm so he could punch you good. So whoever this guy was got the stiff treatment, punched Vader in the face as a reply, and next time around Vader softly stayed in his rhythm and barely touched the guy.

I think that was D'Lo's story.

[Jingus]

FWIW, Vader is also the only guy I've ever seen who somehow managed to enrage Hogan enough to throw some potatoes of his own. Turn up the sound on their match at Superbrawl, and you can literally hear Hulk's fist smacking into Leon's face at times.

 

I don't remember who told that story, but here it is. When Vader was doing his left/right barrage in the corner, if you got with the rhythm, it was harmless.

Yeah, I've heard that too. Kory Williams told me about the time he got pulverized when Vader did that one run-in at the Memphis show. Vader told Kory to just stay motionless in the corner and let Vader do all the work, and everything would be fine. Kory was pretty green then, so he flinched during the barrage and promptly got knocked the fuck out.

[Bix]

The only problem I had with Holly's Tough Enough beatdown was the part where he reached his foot through the ropes to kick the dude right in the mouth. That was uncalled for and could've resulted in injury. Everything else? Meh. Chopping someone really really hard is not shooting on them, no matter how many indy worker pussies believe otherwise (I've seen an astounding number of occasions where some vet chopped the crap out of a guy he didn't like and acted afterwards like he'd done something really mean and impressive). I also object to the idea that he somehow "deserved" getting his neck broken against Brock, which is a depressingly common sentiment in the IWC.

He kicked Cappotelli in the eyeball after all of the TE trainees had been repeatedly told "wrestling is about trust and giving your body over to your opponent" etc etc.

[Jingus]

Eyeball? I just went back and watched it again, and they didn't mention anything about that, it was his mouth bleeding. Once again, the only part I hated was when he stomped Matt square in the face. Everything else was pretty much the exact same way that Holly always wrestled, he was well known for being a grumpy stiff bastard at all times. And yeah, Tough Enough's training speeches were always incredibly hypocritical and dripping with fake respect for the business, but that's nothing new either.

 

Also, I peeked at the video where Brock broke Bob's neck. Where the fuck did the whole "Holly tried to sandbag the powerbomb" talking point originate? Bob clearly plants his feet and goes up for the move, Brock just lost him on the way up and apparently decided that ganso-bombing him was the proper soluttion.

[Bix]

Eyeball? I just went back and watched it again, and they didn't mention anything about that, it was his mouth bleeding. Once again, the only part I hated was when he stomped Matt square in the face. Everything else was pretty much the exact same way that Holly always wrestled, he was well known for being a grumpy stiff bastard at all times. And yeah, Tough Enough's training speeches were always incredibly hypocritical and dripping with fake respect for the business, but that's nothing new either.

That's what Dave Meltzer's always written when people defended Holly. Remember, what we saw was a heavily edited reality show.

 

Also, I peeked at the video where Brock broke Bob's neck. Where the fuck did the whole "Holly tried to sandbag the powerbomb" talking point originate? Bob clearly plants his feet and goes up for the move, Brock just lost him on the way up and apparently decided that ganso-bombing him was the proper soluttion.

I guess because Holly has a rep for sandbagging his opponents.

[Jingus]

That's what Dave Meltzer's always written when people defended Holly. Remember, what we saw was a heavily edited reality show.

Fair enough. I don't recall what the backstage talk was regarding it at the time, I only saw the footage they released.

 

I guess because Holly has a rep for sandbagging his opponents.

But how often does he do it intentionally? I can't recall any examples off the top of my head. And I've seen people specifically whining that Bob sandbagged on that particular powerbomb so many times that it boggles the mind. Kinda the same thing with Kennedy on that flubbed hiptoss where Cena got hurt; Ken clearly planted his feet and jumped, but they were both out of position and they fell down went boom. Yet a shit-ton of people moaned about how it was all Kennedy's fault for not going up for the move. I can understand disagreeing on some things, but in these examples a single glance at the footage instantly debunks those claims, so how some people still cling to those talking points is incomprehensible to me.

[Coffey]

I liked him when nobody cared. I remember really enjoying his match with Jeff Jarrett at NWO 98.

All your posts on JBL make it sound like you just want to be contrary. You liked him when no one else did. Then hated him when everyone else liked him. That doesn't make you right.

Just accept it.

Indeed.

[Victator]

Plus he was a great worker, while JBL, well, not very good.

At his worst JBL was good. Don't even know what the argument for him not being would be.

 

Harley Race said (in his book, iirc) that Vader would have quit if someone had hit him as hard as he was hitting Cactus Jack in their matches.

In fairness to Vader, that was not his idea.

 

Also he took getting his eye knocked out well.

[El-P]

I liked him when nobody cared. I remember really enjoying his match with Jeff Jarrett at NWO 98.

All your posts on JBL make it sound like you just want to be contrary. You liked him when no one else did. Then hated him when everyone else liked him. That doesn't make you right.

Well, I realize it may be the impression I'm giving, but that's not the case. I enjoyed Bradshaw in 97/98 because I was getting in to puro at the time and liked the fact Bradshaw was working stiff. Then I got bored by the the time he was in the Acolytes, then quit watching. Then heard about a single push. Was interested in watching his big matches since I enjoyed him before, was extremely underwhelmed by his work and his gimmick. That's it. Now, you can believe I'm trying to be a contrarian for the sake of it, I know it's not the case, so I don't give a flying fuck about it. As far as "making me right", whatever. I just don't get the 2004 Bradshaw love, that's all.

 

At his worst, Bradshaw sucked. He was a plodding stiffness mark and third rate Hansen clone. At his best, Bradshaw was pretty good as a stiff fucker with some redneck charisma and good moveset for a guy his size. I wish he had worked in Japan at some point, he would have fit there. I'm actually curious about his few John Hawk matches in WAR. Some random stuff there.

[NintendoLogic]

I've already given my thoughts on JBL from an in-ring standpoint in the guys you should like but don't thread, but suffice it to say I'm on the same page as El-P. As for Hardcore Holly, I always thought it was funny that he got a reputation as a tough guy by stiffing the shit out of guys who weren't fighting back. Would he have lasted ten seconds against Daniel Puder in a shoot?

[JerryvonKramer]

The most interesting thing about that JBL gimmick was how he made a Republican right-wing character a heel in the ultra-conservative world of wrestling.

[Johnny Sorrow]

To keep this on topic. JBL was probably the best color commentator the WWE has had in 20 years.

Yeah, I remember really looking forward to SD each week back then and a big reason was JBL's commentary. He and Cole were a great team. I also seem to recall Meltzer hating JBL's commentary because of all the obscure references he'd make ala comparing Londrick to Shaun and Steve Simpson. And that's the kind of stuff I personally love.

 

Oh, and as far as if WCW would have wanted Bradshaw, this was the company that hired Jim Powers and Lanny Poffo.

[JerryvonKramer]

Weirdly, WWF and WCW are the only two promotions to hire BOTH Lanny Poffo and Jim Powers. There could be a trivia thread game made out of this sort of question, but can't think how it would work right now.

[Johnny Sorrow]

And don't get me wrong, Lanny Poffo was a fine wrestler. My point is that anyone could get hired by WCW for awhile there especially if they had ever worked for the WWF.

[Victator]

And according to Bischoff and JBL WCW did try to sign him.

[El-P]

Oh, and as far as if WCW would have wanted Bradshaw, this was the company that hired Jim Powers and Lanny Poffo.

Well, indeed, WCW hired everybody and anybody at the time.

Still, Poffo was hired as a favor for Randy. And Powers was hired to be a competitive jobber. It's not like they got all TNA on them back then and pushed the guy because he was "ex-WWF" (in the case of Lanny, they sure could at least put him on TV, but that's WCW retardation).

 

And would Bradshaw getting snacked by WCW at any point in 96/97/98/99 have changed *anything* for WWF ? Of course not. He was a complete non factor.

[tigerpride]

That's what Dave Meltzer's always written when people defended Holly. Remember, what we saw was a heavily edited reality show.

Fair enough. I don't recall what the backstage talk was regarding it at the time, I only saw the footage they released.

 

I guess because Holly has a rep for sandbagging his opponents.

But how often does he do it intentionally? I can't recall any examples off the top of my head. And I've seen people specifically whining that Bob sandbagged on that particular powerbomb so many times that it boggles the mind. Kinda the same thing with Kennedy on that flubbed hiptoss where Cena got hurt; Ken clearly planted his feet and jumped, but they were both out of position and they fell down went boom. Yet a shit-ton of people moaned about how it was all Kennedy's fault for not going up for the move. I can understand disagreeing on some things, but in these examples a single glance at the footage instantly debunks those claims, so how some people still cling to those talking points is incomprehensible to me.

 

Regarding the powerbomb, everything I've read has said Holly was sandbagging him on the powerbomb and being a dick the whole match. I know they edited some of it too, since it looked weird live.

 

While no one deserves their neck broken, he only has himself to blame

[Jingus]

Regarding the powerbomb, everything I've read has said Holly was sandbagging him on the powerbomb

Yeah, that's the problem. "Everything" that you and I have read.

 

But

. (And seriously, why doesn't this board have Youtube-embedding tags?)

 

You can see for yourself, plain as day, that Bob Holly does precisely zero sandbagging on that move. He very clearly gets himself into proper position, plants his feet, and jumps. Brock was the one who botched the move. Just watching it, it's so completely obvious that it's all Brock's fault (especially the end, why wouldn't you put the guy down and try again rather than just dropping him on his head?). Yet somehow the "Holly sandbagged, so he deserved it" story became the official IWC version of the events. How the hell does such a blatantly false lie become so widely accepted, when one look at the video easily proves it wrong?

[Johnny Sorrow]

And would Bradshaw getting snacked by WCW at any point in 96/97/98/99 have changed *anything* for WWF ? Of course not. He was a complete non factor.

Not the point. He could have left, was made an offer, and stayed with Vince. Loyalty matters.

[Loss]

And would Bradshaw getting snacked by WCW at any point in 96/97/98/99 have changed *anything* for WWF ? Of course not. He was a complete non factor.

Not the point. He could have left, was made an offer, and stayed with Vince. Loyalty matters.

 

This is true. Whether you see him as a valued performer or not, the company clearly did.