What If Vince Ran With Slaughter Instead Of Hogan

[S.L.L.]

Although I wasn't following the scene at the time, La Resistance was just a baffling gimmick. Calling a heel team like the armed force which fought the nazi occupation during WWII is like, WTF ?

You think that's bad? Wade Barrett has started wearing trunks with a symbol on it that the announcers inform me is associated with the Warsaw Uprising. At least I could pretend that La Resistance was just a team of Francophones who were resisting something and chose the most obvious - albeit ill-advised - name to represent that. Now Vince McMahon is more or less actively telling us to boo a guy in part because he sympathizes with das Juden.

[El-P]

Wait, what ?

[Ricky Jackson]

For the sake of accuracy, the "Nikita to WWF in the 80s" rumours are still on his Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Koloff, although the part about him being de-pushed in 1988 as punishment for talking to Vince has been removed.

[S.L.L.]

Wait, what ?

Well, not in those words, obviously, but how else do you interpret announcers specifically pointing out that a noted heel has symbolically associated himself with the Polish resistance against the Nazis?

[rainmakerrtv]

I heard an interview with James "Kamala" Harris the other day saying that he never got a big pay day. Like working for Vince he got stuff like $800 working MSG with Hogan and something like $5k working Undertaker at Wrestlemania.

 

Was the WWF stingy? I guess they paid Hogan very well, but was say -- Tito Santana -- on the same sort of money as ... say ... Manny Fernandez?

 

In my mind those two would be on similar sort of pay.

 

Were JCP known to pay more?

I had actually heard from various shoots (Windham, Magnum vs. Nikita) that around the beginning of the Rock 'n' Wrestlin era, JCP paycheques were very poor due to weak houses. Windham said he bailed on Dusty and JCP for the WWF because his pay was so bad, and when Magnum commented how bad the houses were when he came in, Nikita added that they were even worse the year before. Maybe there was a significant jump with the addition of the Four Horsemen and the Midnights vs RnR feud, but I'm not the guy with the numbers.

[Matt D]

That's mainly just the beginning of dusty getting there in 84, though.

[Loss]

If you notice, guys like Flair, Arn, Luger and the Steiners who made their name in WCW and jumped to the WWF all went back on their own to WCW. If you were a top guy, WCW paid you well (and you had a guaranteed salary), the schedule was lighter and you weren't micromanaged. For all the revisionist talk now about how everyone hated working there, history doesn't exactly back that up.

[Matt D]

I feel like it was a year and a half in wwf for a lot of the guys. Arn's shoot is interesting when it comes to talking about Vince and salary.

[Dylan Waco]

Cornette produces the pay stubs from Crockett during this era in the Midnight Express book. Now I'm sure Corny and the boys were making more money than Sam Houston and Pez Whatley, but I doubt they were making far more than Magnum or Nikita (if they were making more at all). And from what I could tell they were doing fairly well

[rainmakerrtv]

If you notice, guys like Flair, Arn, Luger and the Steiners who made their name in WCW and jumped to the WWF all went back on their own to WCW. If you were a top guy, WCW paid you well (and you had a guaranteed salary), the schedule was lighter and you weren't micromanaged. For all the revisionist talk now about how everyone hated working there, history doesn't exactly back that up.

Well, only one of those guys (Arn) jumped from JCP, the other guys were from Turner. Of those guys, Flair had left WCW to get away from Herd's attempts to ruin his career and drastically cut his play, and he jumped back because Herd was gone and Vince had told him he didn't really have anything for him. Arn had left JCP for pay issues (I think it might have been caused by Crocket's bookkeeping catching up with him, JCP had just renegotiatied a bunch of huge contracts because he thought he had a lot of money coming in, but by the time he got to Arn and Tully he found out they were going broke). When he jumped back, it was partly for pay issues but also a large part because the travel schedule was giving him hardly any time with his family. The Steiners idn't jump right back to WCW, they spent some time in ECW and Japan before going to WCW. I'm not sure exactly what the reason was they left the WWF, but it probably didn't help that the tag division was de-emphasized. Lex left as part of WCW ramping up their first real aggressive moves to beat the WWF, but his career in WWF had pretty much run its course, having been a tag wrestler for the last while. Apart from Arn, all of these guys had gone to the WWF in a big splash, but after that the WWF just didn't really know what to do with them.

 

As far as revisionist talk, I don't know if it is all that revisionist. Like most things, there were pluses and minuses. When ATM Eric opened up the Turner vaults, a lot of people were making a lot more money than they ever had before, and the lighter travel schedule was a big perk, but a lot of people were very frustrated by their careers being in the hands of people they didn't respect. By all accounts, the backstage politics was much worse than in the WWF (and WWF was no paradise that way) and, if you weren't at the top, you were put in your place and that is where you would stay. As for the micromanagement, that seems to be more of a recent issue with Vince, although I admit I don't really know that much about it in that period.

[Johnny Guitar]

If you notice, guys like Flair, Arn, Luger and the Steiners who made their name in WCW and jumped to the WWF all went back on their own to WCW. If you were a top guy, WCW paid you well (and you had a guaranteed salary), the schedule was lighter and you weren't micromanaged. For all the revisionist talk now about how everyone hated working there, history doesn't exactly back that up.

Good point on the micro mangement. I've always felt that one of the pluse's that gets overlooked when people talk about WCW. Is that for the most part anyone who had made a name for themselves in the WWF, ECW or the indies was allowed to keep their gimmick, if they could legally do so. They weren't repackaged just for the hell of it like Vince does.

 

If you had any kind of name value. You might not be booked to the best of your abilities, but you were unlikely to be buried and squashed just for shits and giggles.

 

I always wonder what wrestling would be like today if WCW was still in business. People say "Well look at TNA", but to me TNa isn't even on the level of ECW, let alone WCW.

 

For all WCW's faults. They had a history, as a conglomeration of the last of the territorie's (JCP going back to the 30's. Wrestling on TBS since the 70's etc). Drew some money, whether crowds or buyrates, even in down periods (Flair/Funk in 89, Flair/Sting in 90, Sting/Luger & Sting/Roberts in 92, Flair/Steamboat in 94). Had a better in ring product than the WWF, at least until Russo showed up, and a dedicated and enthusiastic fanbase.

[jdw]

As for Hogan's relative lack of jingoistic angles, it wasn't necessarily for lack of trying. Didn't Vince try to bring in Nikita Koloff in 1985?

It was a bit of a throwaway match for SNME. I don't recall it being a major feud around the horn.

 

John

[jdw]

I heard an interview with James "Kamala" Harris the other day saying that he never got a big pay day. Like working for Vince he got stuff like $800 working MSG with Hogan and something like $5k working Undertaker at Wrestlemania.

 

Was the WWF stingy? I guess they paid Hogan very well, but was say -- Tito Santana -- on the same sort of money as ... say ... Manny Fernandez?

 

In my mind those two would be on similar sort of pay.

 

Were JCP known to pay more?

When workers start talking about getting stiffed on paydays, that often crosses into "grain of salt" territory in my mind. Just sayin'.

Totally agree on this. People who have the Cornette book see the payoffs in there. Those were payoffs that were being split three ways on the heel side: Jimmy, Bobby and Dennis. It's highly unlikely that Kamala's paydays were split three ways. Wiz may have gotten a split similar to Kamala, but I doubt Kimchee was since that was a jobber role anyone could play.

 

Folks weren't coming to the WWF for chump change if they were working mains against Hogan. Kamala did consecutive main events against Hogan. Vince's ticket prices and gates were higher than Watts and JCP. He wasn't getting just $800 for that, nor the other big gates he drew.

 

Unless he was a total idiot and Vince had him conned.

 

John

[KrisZ]

JCP did horrible business in 1984 and at the time it was a big risk financially to give Vince the $1 mill for the TBS slot but it paid off.

[jdw]

I had actually heard from various shoots (Windham, Magnum vs. Nikita) that around the beginning of the Rock 'n' Wrestlin era, JCP paycheques were very poor due to weak houses. Windham said he bailed on Dusty and JCP for the WWF because his pay was so bad, and when Magnum commented how bad the houses were when he came in, Nikita added that they were even worse the year before. Maybe there was a significant jump with the addition of the Four Horsemen and the Midnights vs RnR feud, but I'm not the guy with the numbers.

Crockett was down when BW was first there. Business in 1986 was quite good. Again, I'd point to Cornette's paystubb when the were going around the horn with the R'n'R and looking at the big gates/cities. Those were 5 way splits of the semifinal usually under Flair matches. It's possible that they were 1+1 + .67+.67+.67 splits, where the MX "half" of the payoff was split three ways. From Jimmy's comments, it came across that they were "five way splits" rather than four ways.

 

BW wasn't pushed high when he came in before the initial jump to the WWF, crowds were down, and he left.

 

 

If you notice, guys like Flair, Arn, Luger and the Steiners who made their name in WCW and jumped to the WWF all went back on their own to WCW. If you were a top guy, WCW paid you well (and you had a guaranteed salary), the schedule was lighter and you weren't micromanaged. For all the revisionist talk now about how everyone hated working there, history doesn't exactly back that up.

There's a major difference there:

 

JCP and then WCW ended up "overpaying" certain talent to keep them from jumping.

 

Lex got a massive contract to come from Florida to JCP, then massive to stay when it went to WCW.

 

Flair got a massive contract. The Roadies did. The Steiners eventually got a big contract, but their real push didn't happen until they were under WCW.

 

The MX got $225K per year contracts from Crockett... *each*. That was the downside, so if their weekly pay ended up being below that at the end of the year, JCP had to ballon pay the difference. When it was sold to TBS, those all went to weekly/bi-weekly checks... and pure salary rather than something dictated by the gates.

 

To get an idea:

 

MX = $225K + $225K + $225K = $675K

 

Kamala = $800 MSG sellout * 7 days a week vs Hogan * 52 weeks = $291K

 

Now Kamala didn't work before MSG level sellout crowds every week. Kamala didn't work 7 days a week against Hogan. He didn't do it for 52 weeks.

 

But if he *did*, and his $800 is accurate, then...

 

WWF Hogan Main Event Heel = $291K annual salaries (less rare PPV payoffs in those days)

Midnight Express Underneath Flair & Dusty & World Tag Title & Roadies & Lex = $675K combined

 

Is everyone seeing that Kamala is totally and utterly full of shit?

 

No heel works against Hogan 52 weeks of the year. Yet everyone in sight was willing to jump for the shot at facing Hogan because the money was that great.

 

Rick Rude was the Tag Champ, at a time in early 1987 when JCP business wasn't horrible. These were probably the best paydays he'd ever gotten in his life. He jumped to the WWF while still holding the NWA Tag Titles...

 

Because the promise of $$$ was greater in the WWF. And I think there's little doubt he made more per year in the WWF *on average* than he'd made in JCP on a pro rated business.

 

There were no doubt some folks who would make more in JCP/WCW than they would in the WWF. Roadies, Dusty, R'n'R... a number of people were like that. But there no way that someone like Kamala got paid only $800 for selling out MSG opposite Hogan. I'd really need to see that pay stub to buy that.

 

John

[Johnny Guitar]

JCP did horrible business in 1984 and at the time it was a big risk financially to give Vince the $1 mill for the TBS slot but it paid off.

I've forgotten the in's and out's. Did Vince offer the TBS slot for sale because of pressure from Ted to produce a studio show, which Vince didn't want to do. Or did Vince being a stuborn bastard like he is, decide to cut his losse's and go with USA?

 

Actually did he have the USA at this point?

 

I know $1 mill was big coin in those days. But it must have seemed a worthwile risk for Crockett. By that point in time quite a few people, like The Funks and The Brisco's and Watts were saying that national; cable was the way to go.

 

Was Watts in the picture to buy the slot? I know he got on the network the next year. But in 84 I can;t see anyone but Crockett, Watts or Fritz having the cash to pay Vince.

 

Now that I think about it. A few years later no one would have had the cash to pay Vince.

[Death From Above]

Kamala's complaints weren't so much about weekly pay, but more about when they did the Summerslam PPV in terms of the bonus Undertaker got for a PPV vs. him basically getting nothing extra.

 

Only promoter I remember him saying anything nice about on the pay front was Watts, who he said honored all their deals and would even pay bonuses that were outside of that. Other than him I think he knocked everyone else he ever worked for.

 

Which, still, sounds like grain of salt stuff.

[JerryvonKramer]

Re: Kamala BSing, here's what he has to say on his website, make of it what you will, but he's implying Vince was racist in some way:

 

So desperate to be successful in pro wrestling until I fail. Working for the biggest organization in the world, successful in drawing crowds, in places like the meadow land, Madison square garden, the L. A. coliseum in L. A. Packed houses across the country. I wonder why I wasn't paid for it. I try and understand it but cant. The only conclusion I can come up with is Mr. McMahon is a racist, or just didn't like me for what ever reason, I would like to know. I fault my self for staying. But their are # of reasons I stayed. You know sometime you don't think clearly until it to late. I Thought that if I did what was asked of me things would get better. I didn't realize at the time I was hurting myself by doing everything Mr. McMahon asked of me like letting everybody beat me. At the time The then WWF was one of the two major organization. So really there was no where to go if not in either of those. I remember being so happy whenever I would hear that the then WWF would out draw the then WCW. I was just so happy but wasn't thought of by the WWF to even get paid. I guess it just the kind of heart I have. I just wanted to work hard as I did, secure my family and get out. That's all I wanted to do but, I fail. I wonder if there's a curse on me for failing. Imagine a 400 pound man sitting in coach class. people were always complaining whenever the plane was full and I cant blame them. I would have to lean toward the isle trying to make passengers sitting next to me comfortable. I end up being yelled at so many times by flight attendant because part of me hanging in the isle. My knee is messed up now because the person in front of me recline their seat and rested on my knee. Doing this time Mr. McMahon would buy the whites first class seats if they had any size on them or if they were on top no matter how big or how small. I was on top but it never happen one time with me. I ask for a first class seat but it was always, I cant do it from the travel department. I cant think of any blacks that ever had a first class seat no matter what size they were. No matter how anybody look at it, its wrong. Yes my heart is broken and anybody's would be if they had worked their ass off and was not compensated.

 

I could do any of the things some of my colleague did because they had money and made money. I remember Mr. McMahon telling me when I first met him that he believe in paying his talent and paying them well. This was told to me in 1984 in the old office in Stamford, Ct where we had our first meeting at. He said because he believe in that old saying what goes around comes around. I wonder do he feel that way today. I sometime look at all the blacks that enjoy watching wrestling and think that it a buddy buddy thing but you would be surprise to know how your favorite hero fill about you are the black entirely. Everybody thought that Andre the giant was a great guy but you were highly mistaken. God bless his soul but he was an ass hole. He would get you in the ring an try and hurt you. He wanted you to be afraid of him but, it didn't work with me and a few more guys. I worked with Andre for many years but the first time I worked with him he tried that bull shit on me but it didn't work and I beat the hell out of him right there in the ring in Oklahoma city in 1982. The next day we were in a dressing room where we could get to each other and talk. I went to him with a 357 concealed in my pocket with my right hand on the trigger and my left hand on his nose and I promise him death if he come cross me again the way he had. We got along so good after that but I always watched him. That big grin that you saw on his face going to the ring was as fake as wrestling is. Fans especially blacks you will be surprise how the promoters and agents feel about us and the things they say. Prejudice is so thick it feels as if you can cut it with a knife. I know I was there in it and have heard it all. Thanks you all for listing and I will always think of your Cheers and Boos, they are cherished. I love you. James (kamala) Harris

[El-P]

Tony Atlas got a theory about how there's no racism in prowrestling since most black men ended up main-eventing at some point. What do you think ?

On the opposite side of the coin, a guy like Ranger Ross or Curtis Hughes would tell you they encountered racism in pro-wrestling while they didn't before in other domain (football, rangers).

[Jingus]

Atlas is crazy. Racism in wrestling is so deep and wide that I'm amazed anyone ever tries to claim it doesn't exist. The sheer lack of non-white world champions is the easiest example to point at, of course.

[khawk20]

I don't remember Kamala getting jobbed out in his 1980's WWF time. Not sure about his other stints, but it sounds like he's referring to his run in the 80's (just the way I'm reading it), and if he is, he didn't get pinned much if at all besides Hogan.

[JerryvonKramer]

I actually assumed he was talking about his early 90s run with Slick

[artDDP]

Confronting Andre the Giant with a gun might be one reason Vince was reluctant to treat Kamala to first-class seats.

[Bob Morris]

Wow, we covered the whole range of topics in this one thread. Where do I start?

 

* Have to agree that Slaughter wouldn't have drawn for long as the face champion in WWF. Ultimately, Hogan would have entered the picture and he could do so much more in terms of programs you could have. Slaughter as a face was destined for a midcard role ala Hacksaw Jim Duggan. You can only do USA vs. evil foreigner so much. Heck, when Hogan headlined Wrestlemania and had a program built up to the show, Slaughter is the only example of USA vs. "foreigner" storyline. I don't count Hogan vs. Yoko because that wasn't built up for WM, it just happened on the show.

 

* Regarding WWF vs. WCW pay, if you were a top guy in JCP/WCW, you were going to get paid well. I think Bill Watts is the only executive VP who brought in the mentality of "you want to get paid well, you earn it," but otherwise, none of the folks in charge thought twice about paying somebody a good amount of money unless they had a personal conflict with the guy (case in point: Herd regarding Flair). Plus, if you had strong ties to JCP/WCW, and you went to WWF, Vince often wanted to remake you in his idea of what your character should be. It's why they didn't refer to Ric Flair that much as The Nature Boy (heck, I remember the first WWF Magazine story about Flair and they called him The Champ) and why they tried the Narcissist and Made in the USA gimmicks with Luger. The Steiners and Tully/Arn didn't really get a makeover but they were always going to be in the midcard anyway. Go up to I-C title level and Vince wanted to make you in his image. So for a guy like Rude, who never had a strong tie with JCP, it was always better for him to jump and get established.

 

And yes, with Rude, that leads to the "if you were big in WWF, you would get pushed big in WCW."

 

* Without veering this off topic, I'll just say this regarding one-hit wonders in music: Neither Survivor nor Bonnie Tyler qualifies because they had multiple top 40 hits, had albums that did good business and had a pretty good run in general as far as success in music. One-hit wonders, to me, are those who have just one top 40 hit, don't have strong album sales overall, weren't big in their particular genre and didn't have a lasting amount of success overall. If you want an example of a true one-hit wonder, think somebody like M or Toni Basil.

[Victator]

I don't remember Kamala getting jobbed out in his 1980's WWF time. Not sure about his other stints, but it sounds like he's referring to his run in the 80's (just the way I'm reading it), and if he is, he didn't get pinned much if at all besides Hogan.

He lost a bit after the run with Hogan ended. Him and Sika lost to the Young Stallions.