Ring of Honor Wrestling

[Blehschmidt]

I just don't understand how you can bring in Jeff Cobb, PCO, Brody King, Mark Haskins, Tracy Williams, Bandido, Rush, and Zack Sabre Jr and have underutilized folks like Gresham on the roster, and still deliver the same stale, boring product you've been shoveling out for years.

Jay Lethal has been on top of the promotion for eons, and unless he is impersonating Randy Savage, is pretty much the poster boy for Meh. If the guy who was third wheel in the stable with Adam Cole and Mike Bennett is what passes for World Title material now, then Yikes. Dalton Castle has potential but they squandered it. The Briscoe's need refreshing in a different environment. Scurll is obviously leaving. Silas Young is about the only guy whose been around, who I think deserves a chance at stepping above current pay grade.

If New Japan switches to AEW, I know the company isn't going anywhere because of the Sinclair money, but it is fucked.

[SomethingSavage]

It really is the most boring, nothing happening wrestling promotion on the planet. They're benefiting huge from the independent boom we're all experiencing, but I couldn't be paid to pay attention to anything they're doing. Zzzzz.

[Mad Dog]

I used to like going to the shows because it was cheap and the matches were usually decent. Now they charge WWE prices so I no longer go.

[Blehschmidt]

16 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

I used to like going to the shows because it was cheap and the matches were usually decent. Now they charge WWE prices so I no longer go.

You ain't kidding. I went to several shows in Dayton back in the early days and sat front row for dirt cheap, and went to a couple TV tapings in Pittsburgh when they first got TV and it was still cheap.

I just looked into the Pittsburgh taping for this weekend. General Admission is 30 bucks, and the best remaining seats are 75 bucks. Then I looked at the meet and greet prices, 30 bucks for individuals (for an 8x10 and a pic with them) and 40 bucks for tag teams or groups.

Fuck That.

[Memphis Mark]

ROH could be fixed . You would have to clean house. I would fire the whole booking team . Then I would find a booker  that could be objective about the talent . No more wives , girlfriends , close friends  and pet students. Maybe Lance Storm or Dave Lagana . The booking style needs to be a fusion of  Memphis and 80's / 90's AJPW. Personal issues and work rate collide . That what ROH was built on .

I would gut the bottom third of the roster . Goodbye  Cheeseburger, Ryan Nova , Boys , Bouncers, Vinny ,  Shane Taylor  Little Willie and Rhett Titus . Then I drop the whole woman 's division . If ROH is going to promote woman's wrestling , hire woman who can work . The current woman's product is not up to standards. I not against women's wrestling , I just don't want to watch any type of  bad wrestling.

 

I would add top young talent . Guys like the NJPW La Dojo students. I don't know if the Future of Honor project will ever produce guys the quality of Clark Conner, Alex Coughlin and Karl Fredricks . No more guys that have the body of a 12 year old girl .

I snap up top talents  when they become available. An  example who be Eli Drake.  Also seek out  for overlooked indy guys that strong workers. Examples Joey Lynch and Alexander James .

 

 I was a ROH fan for over 10 years . The G1 / Supercard was the first show I watch this year . I dropped Honor Club at the first of the year , never watch the TV show. . Hopefully things will get better. Right now MLW is filling the void.

[C.S.]

Good article here: https://www.si.com/wrestling/2019/04/12/wwe-enzo-big-cass-roh-return-nzo-cazxl-free-agentz

Say what you want about Enzo and Cass - excuse me, nZo and CazXL (er...) - but they understand the business.

It's not about "workrate."

It's not about "movez."

"In an era of five-star matches and work rate, Enzo and Cass are looking to make their own success in wrestling by following the number one rule in all of sports entertainment: be a draw."

And they're right. What is everyone talking about after that ROH show? Enzo and Cass.

[El-P]

5 hours ago, C.S. said:

And they're right. What is everyone talking about after that ROH show? Enzo and Cass.

Yeah , everybody is shitting on ROH for bringing those guys. Good job indeed. Sorry, , but it's "But david Arquette got us mainstream press" level of "understanding the business".

[C.S.]

7 hours ago, El-P said:

Yeah , everybody is shitting on ROH for bringing those guys. Good job indeed. Sorry, , but it's "But david Arquette got us mainstream press" level of "understanding the business".

Yet, the rest of this thread is filled with posts like:

On 4/9/2019 at 10:42 PM, SomethingSavage said:

It really is the most boring, nothing happening wrestling promotion on the planet. 

(And it is!)

So, the diehard ROH fans "shitting on it" means what exactly?

And from reading that article, it sounds like Enzo and Cass won't be exclusive to ROH anyway and plan on showing up everywhere that isn't WWE.

[El-P]

12 minutes ago, C.S. said:

And from reading that article, it sounds like Enzo and Cass won't be exclusive to ROH anyway and plan on showing up everywhere that isn't WWE.

I'm sure plenty of promotions will have interest in two WWE rejects & complete failures who also are considered toxic in a locker room. ROH management are idiots.

And really, if you need to be explained why ROH's audience will have zero interest in Enzo & Cass, I don't know what to tell you. Hell, WWE's audience had no interest in Cass either BTW despite being groomed for big things. Yeah, they sure "get the business" more than say, Kenny Omega and his zillions star matches who also happened to get NJPW red hot and be the central figure of a brand new promotion for which he got a huge money deal and office position. Yeah, Cass totally is more valuable than Workrate God Daniel Bryan too, with whom he couldn't managed to have a decent match BTW. And Enzo, well, he got off a sexual assault accusation just because the accuser was not strong enough, but he's a known fuck up and awful pro-wrestler, he surely knows better about the business than, say, Johnny Gargano and his zillion stars matches over the last year, who managed to get the biggest babyface sustained ovation in years in WWE. 

Oh, I've just been informed than they actually never drew shit and got fired because they both sucked at their job and as human beings. Damn.

[C.S.]

3 minutes ago, El-P said:

I'm sure plenty of promotions will have interest in two WWE rejects & complete failures who also are considered toxic in a locker room. ROH management are idiots.

And really, if you need to be explained why ROH's audience will have zero interest in Enzo & Cass, I don't know what to tell you. Hell, WWE's audience had no interest in Cass either BTW despite being groomed for big things. Yeah, they sure "get the business" more than say, Kenny Omega and his zillions star matches who also happened to get NJPW red hot and be the central figure of a brand new promotion for which he got a huge money deal and office position. Yeah, Cass totally is more valuable than Workrate God Daniel Bryan too, with whom he couldn't managed to have a decent match BTW. And Enzo, well, he got off a sexual assault accusation just because the accuser was not strong enough, but he's a known fuck up and awful pro-wrestler, he surely knows better about the business than, say, Johnny Gargano and his zillion stars matches over the last year, who managed to get the biggest babyface sustained ovation in years in WWE. 

 Oh, I've just been informed than they actually never drew shit and got fired because they both sucked at their job and as human beings. Damn.

Damn, man, your post is all over the place...

I have no idea why you're bringing up Johnny Gargano, Kenny Omega, and Daniel Bryan - none of whom I mentioned at any point in this conversation. Nor did I imply that Enzo and Cass were better than them. (They're better than Asuka and Kassius Ohno though! I'M KIDDING!)

To be fair to Cass though, he and Bryan actually had a pretty fun match on Cass's last WWE PPV (he was fired, what, a day or two later?). Not saying it was a five-star classic, but I remember being surprised - and I don't think I was the only one. Yes, it's Daniel Bryan, who can walk on water with any opponent, but still. 

As for no one else wanting Enzo and Cass, there were rumors that Enzo (and I assume now Cass) were going to show up Double or Nothing. Take that with a grain of salt though. I have a feeling those were fake rumors planted to misdirect people from the surprise of their ROH debuts. 

Only time will tell, I guess. Enzo and Cass claim they're working on their own TV show, so they're clearly still not immune from spouting carny bullshit.

I still think this is an interesting development for ROH. It's a genuine surprise, for one thing, and whether you like it or not, it certainly can't be accused of being "boring" like @SomethingSavage has said about the promotion on the whole as of late.

[El-P]

29 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Damn, man, your post is all over the place...

No, it makes a whole lot of sense actually.

The thing is this : in 2019, "great matches" (and MOVEZ, as people so eloquently say as if we're still in the Post Benoit Guilt era jerking off on Mark Henry's matches on the DVDVR board) actually matter a LOT to get over and/or become a draw, as showed by the who's who of the hottest pro-wrestlers around. WWE : Daniel Bryan. NXT : Ciampa & Gargano. New Japan : Okada, Naito, Tanahashi, Ibushi. Indies : The Lucha Brothers. That brand new promotion coming up : Omega, Young Bucks. All of them are "workrate" (although that doesn't mean anything in 2019 compared to 25 years ago, as we don't see plodding, slow as fuck matches anymore unless Trip works a Stadium), well, "snowflake" guys, if you will (I won't use "great match", because of course tastes may vary, but still).

So yeah, everyone is talking about Enzo & Cass in ROH. To say how stupid it is and how much it sucks and how much it's yet another reason to not give a flying fuck about that promotion. As long as they don't show up on iMPACT, MLW or AEW (which I highly doubt), I'm fine with that anyway, gives me one more reason to not pay attention to ROH.

[El-P]

Footnote, I totally forgot Velvet Skye was Bully Ray's girlfriend. Oooookay, makes sense.

[aaeo_]

That SI article reads like native advertising.

[Mad Dog]

16 hours ago, Memphis Mark said:

ROH could be fixed . You would have to clean house. I would fire the whole booking team . Then I would find a booker  that could be objective about the talent . No more wives , girlfriends , close friends  and pet students. Maybe Lance Storm or Dave Lagana . The booking style needs to be a fusion of  Memphis and 80's / 90's AJPW. Personal issues and work rate collide . That what ROH was built on .

I would gut the bottom third of the roster . Goodbye  Cheeseburger, Ryan Nova , Boys , Bouncers, Vinny ,  Shane Taylor  Little Willie and Rhett Titus . Then I drop the whole woman 's division . If ROH is going to promote woman's wrestling , hire woman who can work . The current woman's product is not up to standards. I not against women's wrestling , I just don't want to watch any type of  bad wrestling.

 

I would add top young talent . Guys like the NJPW La Dojo students. I don't know if the Future of Honor project will ever produce guys the quality of Clark Conner, Alex Coughlin and Karl Fredricks . No more guys that have the body of a 12 year old girl .

I snap up top talents  when they become available. An  example who be Eli Drake.  Also seek out  for overlooked indy guys that strong workers. Examples Joey Lynch and Alexander James .

 

 I was a ROH fan for over 10 years . The G1 / Supercard was the first show I watch this year . I dropped Honor Club at the first of the year , never watch the TV show. . Hopefully things will get better. Right now MLW is filling the void.

The problem is they have to think outside of the box for creative. Like bring in the guy that books AIW or who was doing CWF Mid-Atlantic. If Mania Weekend taught me one thing it's that wrestling has almost an embarrassment of riches when it comes to creativity. Go find one of those guys instead of relying on big league retreads.

[sek69]

Part of the issue is a lot of the creative types in wrestling don't want to work for a company owned by a right wing propaganda machine. Like, as obnoxious Vince can be at least he's not writing must-read op eds for local newscasts. I realize this might skirt the Pro Wrestling Only line, but as we've seen with David Starr it's an issue ROH has to deal with and so far they haven't dealt with it very well. 

[El-P]

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

but as we've seen with David Starr it's an issue ROH has to deal with and so far they haven't dealt with it very well. 

That's interesting. BTW Starr is someone I wouldn't mind seeing a lot more of. His match with Ishii at the Rev Pro show over the week-end was excellent.

[hammerva]

4 hours ago, C.S. said:

So, the diehard ROH fans "shitting on it" means what exactly?

And from reading that article, it sounds like Enzo and Cass won't be exclusive to ROH anyway and plan on showing up everywhere that isn't WWE.

Well it sounds like that isn't true as there are reports they signed a multi year deal with the company.   Hopefully for the company sake they haven't completely lost their minds

And yes you really should be worrying about ROH and indie/New Japan marks "shitting on it" BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR REMAINING AUDIENCE.  The Bullet Club/Elite fans are gone except for a small percentage.  Their attendance has dropped since AEW went into business.   Unless you have more proof, I don't see a long of list of WWE fans who are ready to jump ship now that Enzo and Cass are coming.   The idea that you are going to attract a ton of fans for the freak show factor isn't why people follow ROH in the first place.  Hell I can think of a bunch of other companies (GameChanger the best one)  that do crazier things  than book two shitty wrestlers being pushed to the moon because they used to work in the WWE

 

[FMKK]

5 hours ago, El-P said:

No, it makes a whole lot of sense actually.

The thing is this : in 2019, "great matches" (and MOVEZ, as people so eloquently say as if we're still in the Post Benoit Guilt era jerking off on Mark Henry's matches on the DVDVR board) actually matter a LOT to get over and/or become a draw, as showed by the who's who of the hottest pro-wrestlers around. WWE : Daniel Bryan. NXT : Ciampa & Gargano. New Japan : Okada, Naito, Tanahashi, Ibushi. Indies : The Lucha Brothers. That brand new promotion coming up : Omega, Young Bucks. All of them are "workrate" (although that doesn't mean anything in 2019 compared to 25 years ago, as we don't see plodding, slow as fuck matches anymore unless Trip works a Stadium), well, "snowflake" guys, if you will (I won't use "great match", because of course tastes may vary, but still).

So yeah, everyone is talking about Enzo & Cass in ROH. To say how stupid it is and how much it sucks and how much it's yet another reason to not give a flying fuck about that promotion. As long as they don't show up on iMPACT, MLW or AEW (which I highly doubt), I'm fine with that anyway, gives me one more reason to not pay attention to ROH.

"Post Benoit Guilt era"

Have you always got to pretend that anyone who doesn't agree with you is being insincere or disingenuous? Great matches matter to an extent but we're in an era where there's overwhelmingly an accepted homogenised template for what makes a great match and a lot of this is based around 'workrate'. But there isn't really a clear indication that I can think of where we can see that such a working approach draws well outside of the core wrestling audience, which has become a 'fandom' as is common parlance. I don't know if wrestling can break out of its bubble through a working style that is to some degree 'fan service'.

Not that I think Enzo and Cass are the solution to this problem in any way. But I think hot angles, compelling rivalries and larger than life characters will always draw more people in than whatever the fuck Dave is going to give 8 stars to. That's for the people who are already inside the bubble.

[Stiva]

19 hours ago, C.S. said:

Good article here: https://www.si.com/wrestling/2019/04/12/wwe-enzo-big-cass-roh-return-nzo-cazxl-free-agentz

Say what you want about Enzo and Cass - excuse me, nZo and CazXL (er...) - but they understand the business.

It's not about "workrate."

It's not about "movez."

"In an era of five-star matches and work rate, Enzo and Cass are looking to make their own success in wrestling by following the number one rule in all of sports entertainment: be a draw."

And they're right. What is everyone talking about after that ROH show? Enzo and Cass.

Yeah but they had nothing else on the card. It's like if WCW ran the Hall/Nash angle at The Bash without Benoit/Sullivan, Giant/Luger, Malenko/Rey or Horsemen vs Greene and McMichael on the card. Invader angles don't work when someone is invading a promotion full of talent that nobody cares about.

[El-P]

44 minutes ago, FMKK said:

Have you always got to pretend that anyone who doesn't agree with you is being insincere or disingenuous? 

No. I just said he was sincerely totally in the wrong. 

44 minutes ago, FMKK said:

But there isn't really a clear indication that I can think of where we can see that such a working approach draws well outside of the core wrestling audience, which has become a 'fandom' as is common parlance. I don't know if wrestling can break out of its bubble through a working style that is to some degree 'fan service'.

I dunno. Pro-wrestling is a niche thing now, like most things. And probably better for it. I mean, the last time pro-wrestling was super popular, it delivered some of the worst shit product ever, the Attitude Era. So yeah, let us have a really good niche thingy. Works for me.

44 minutes ago, FMKK said:

Not that I think Enzo and Cass are the solution to this problem in any way. But I think hot angles, compelling rivalries and larger than life characters will always draw more people in than whatever the fuck Dave is going to give 8 stars to. That's for the people who are already inside the bubble.

The issue with that is, for instance, if you take the whole Okada vs Omega feud in Japan, which got a hundred snowflakes, well, it is some of the most compelling shit I've ever seen told inside the ring, and people were drawn to it and the emotion when Omega won trumps anything produced this decade anywhere else. Another instance ? When Naito got eliminated from the G1 last year, which was the ultimate snowflake event ever, people were fucking crying in the crowd. Tanahashi winning at the Dome, the closure of a year's storyline ? People lost their shit. So, they must do something right when they draw big and make people fucking cry. Those are matter of facts, it has zero to do with whatever Meltz likes or doesn't like.

[FMKK]

Is this a historically strong drawing period for Japanese wrestling? I'm not up on the figures but I'm led to believe that that isn't really the case.

How does this approach translate to a US audience, if at all? 

[sek69]

1 hour ago, FMKK said:

Is this a historically strong drawing period for Japanese wrestling? I'm not up on the figures but I'm led to believe that that isn't really the case.

How does this approach translate to a US audience, if at all? 

 

Historically strong? No, but it's made strong improvements from the 2000s death era. The thing about Japanese wrestling is that the only TV shows now are on late hours, so them able to grow as much as they have is quite an impressive feat.   

 

[NintendoLogic]

New Japan set a company record for revenue this past year even though their mainstream exposure is only a fraction of what it was in the 80s and 90s. A big part of that was Omega and the Bucks raising their international profile. And I get the impression from what I've read that Okada is roughly as well known in Japan as Roman Reigns is in the US.

[SomethingSavage]

11 hours ago, FMKK said:

But I think hot angles, compelling rivalries and larger than life characters will always draw more people in than whatever the fuck Dave is going to give 8 stars to. That's for the people who are already inside the bubble.

Absolutely.

And the issue with ROH is that it's providing neither.

They rarely offer any memorable matches for the critics to sprinkle with snowflakes. And their angles are as bare-bones as it gets. No heat. No drama. No suspense. No anticipation. No draws.

I saw my name being dropped a lot while I was sleeping after working a 16-hour shift, but I honestly hardly ever post in here. Because I don't watch regularly and honestly don't do anything to drive the conversation here. But yes. Their product is boring as fuck.

To be clear, Enzo and Cass aren't much of a solution to any of their problems. I don't think it was a great or bold decision of any kind. I don't get the impression is was this smart strategy. It comes off as more of a desperate grasp for ANYTHING that might get people talking.

It barely registered on my radar.

Like I said, I'm probably not their ideal audience at this point - so that's not exactly a definitive indication of whether it "worked" or not. Just doesn't strike me as an effective ploy, tbh.

If they're looking to recpature the interest of lapsed ROH fans from that 2002-2009 era, then nah. Enzo and Cass ain't it. Blood feuds. Grudges. Competitive rivalries. Matches with stakes. Personal quests. These are the long-term, goal-post style booking strategies that should be employed to relight that fuse.

I'm not saying a hot-shot angle or two couldn't be effective in kicking off that spark. But Enzo and Cass? In the depths of some nothing-happening card nobody is watching in the first place?

Yawn.

[SmartMark15]

1 hour ago, SomethingSavage said:

If they're looking to recpature the interest of lapsed ROH fans from that 2002-2009 era, then nah. Enzo and Cass ain't it. Blood feuds. Grudges. Competitive rivalries. Matches with stakes. Personal quests. These are the long-term, goal-post style booking strategies that should be employed to relight that fuse.

This is what really gets me. This is the same company that gave us Bryan's historic 06 title run, Nigel's turn on the fans, Jimmy Jacobs and BJ Whitmer murdering each other all over the country, one of the hottest interpromotional feuds in history, and so much more greatness.