[1990-01-21-WWF-Royal Rumble] Ron Garvin vs Greg Valentine

[Loss]

Talk about it here.

[Kevin Ridge]

Crap this is a submission match? What's up with all these pinfall attempts? Both guys looked stupid at times trying to get the pinfall when it was established that it was a submission match.

[Smack2k]

They kept saying they were trained to think pin and that was why they kept trying...

 

This one is a good match and they stiff the shit outta each other.

 

I HATE the looks Garvin gives Valentine when he has the "Hammer Jammer" duirng Valentine's figure 4 attempt. With all the shit Valentine put Garvin through in the last part of 1989, Garvin should have taunted Valentine a little more intense and then continued to find ways to beat his ass....

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

I enjoyed this match. It seemed like to haggard and underappreicated old-timers that are mad at the world and taking it out on each other.

[Loss]

Another good match between these two. I think the announcers explained the instinct to go for a pin quite well, and it's not something I had a problem with at all. Both guys throw punches from boxing stances and hit each other really hard. The idea that a figure four won't hurt if you wear a brace is silly, but that's really the only negative thing that stood out. Really good, and outside-the-box for the WWF.

[PeteF3]

This is a really awesome blend of stiffness the southern wrestling way, and WWF-style sportz entertainment. The dueling shinguards gimmick is goofy as all get-out but dammit, I like it anyway. The internal logic states that Valentine's brace makes the figure four more painful and that Garvin's blocks it, and as long as they stick to internal logic that makes sense within its own universe, then it's all good, even if it doesn't make sense in the real world. The pin attempts are pretty Sledgehammer of Plot-worthy in that WWF style, but the early attempts are explained away as instinct and the later ones like the small package on the figure four are done more as escapes and counters than the guys forgetting the rules. Crowd was sort of bored early on, and Garvin was always a fish out of water in McMahonland, but all the hard shots won them over eventually. A big (albeit temporary) rejuvenation for Greg Valentine as a worker and a testament to how great Garvin was.

 

I won't lie. When I was eight I hated this match and I hated Garvin. And he does sometimes come across as the world's most badass goofball. Now I more or less see hard evidence of how stupid I think 8-year old kids are.

[Childs]

More proof that these guys were gold against one another, though there was something very strange about watching a Ron Garvin match with Tony Schiavone announcing in the WWF. Anyway, I loved the combination of assbeating and carny nonsense involving the leg braces. It felt more like a standout match from the territories than something from McMahonland. Thank God Monsoon wasn't announcing. He would have been an insufferable scold about the attempted pins in a submission match.

[Kevin Ridge]

Good point about Monsoon if he was commentary on this match. I'll relax my stance somewhat from my previous drunken comments but I still don't like the pinfall attempts. It's clearly announced by Fink that this is a submission match. There was a brief pin attempt (more of an arrogant pose by Valentine) and a reversal by Garvin at the beginning that was fine. Commentators get to put over that no pinfalls in this match and that's that. But Garvin continues to do pinfall attempts later in the match which was just silly.

 

Thing is I really enjoy this match otherwise and do like it more and more on repeated viewings. These two guys were just smacking the hell out of each other. I was cool with the whole leg brace stuff other than Garvin making stupid faces when in the figure four. Very physically match between two guys who clear don't like one another and just want to beat each other up. The goofy pinfalls attempts by Garvin later in match just were not necessary.

[soup23]

Kind of side with Kevin on some of the later pinfall attempts. I can appreciate them in the context of learning the style of the match or to break up a submission attempt but to continuously go for a pin without any context is strange. I also think Garvins stooge faces in the figure four was stupid but otherwise this had more gritty intense moments than you are used to seeing on WWF tv and PPV from this era. I loved the way they laid into each other and the match was very good despite some obvious flaws in my opinion.

[Cox]

I agree about the pinfall attempts to a point, as I feel like they really beat that over the audience's head with the repeated pinfall attempts, but that really doesn't bother me too much, and at best, it's only a minor quibble as this is a hell of a match. Hard to believe they actually gave these two time on a PPV to put together this match. I can see something like this showing up on an MSG house show or something, but not a PPV, though Royal Rumble undercards tended to be lowest of the low priority. Both of these guys were pretty low on the totem pole coming into this match, and the crowd had little reason to give two shits about either guy, but they win the crowd over by beating the snot out of each other, and Garvin gets a legitimately big pop when he makes Valentine submit at the end. This was definitely the high point of Garvin's WWF run, and there are guys who went through the WWF with worse high points than this for sure.

[Bix]

This was definitely the high point of Garvin's WWF run, and there are guys who went through the WWF with worse high points than this for sure.

Like Lance Storm.

[Cox]

You mean the guy with fewer Wrestlemania matches than Koji Kitao?

[JerryvonKramer]

Have always like this match. Don't think anyone does "dazed" quite as well as Valentine.

 

Jesse's talk about egos is really good, incisive analysis. Don't understand anyone who is down on Jesse.

 

Valentine's chops are as stiff as anything Garvin lays in. I like the fact Valentine goes to a torture rack after he figures that the figure-four isn't going to work. I also like the fact Jesse mentions that was his move as a wrestler before critiquing the way Valentine has it synced in.

 

I don't know why I thought Garvin was so lame as a kid -- I don't think I was alone either, but he was great. Think it is because he had 1) really crap hair and 2) that awful guest ring announcer spot was pathetic.

 

Jesse starts calling Tony a pipsqueak after all the weight he's lost recently.

 

I think the match loses something in the last quarter, possibly because there is not enough pyschology. Valentine doesn't work the leg enough and Garvin doesn't work the lower back enough for my liking. Still good though.

[Zenjo]

Felt a bit out of place seeing this in the WWF. This was a 1980's NWA match between 2 NWA wrestlers. Interesting dynamic as they kept going for pinfalls out of habit. Like others said this was a bit overdone. The strikes were really good. One of the things I dislike most about a lot of American wrestling is all the phony punches. None of that nonsense here with 2 guys laying into each other. Also had a strong rivalry and the psychology with the leg work. Well worked, wholesome and authentic. A memorable one off.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Tonight was the first time I ever saw this. Holy shit, this fucking ruled. And the going for pinfalls thing later in the match is easily explained. Obviously, neither man is a member of MENSA, here. Garvin apparently has the brain of a 5 year old, demonstrated by his mocking faces at Valentine when in the figure four. So it makes sense that a man with a brain of mush would keep forgetting it's a submission match. Valentine going for a pinfall late can be explained by the fact that he's had his clock cleaned all match, and his own brain damaged dome caused him to forgot the rules as well.

 

Or, since it was an NWA match basically, they were both waiting for Tommy Young to say "fuck it" and count a pinfall anyway.

[Laney]

Really good match here. I think this has to be the best match from Garvin's WWF run. The pinfall attempts were kind of odd, but the strategy of Garvin to wear the brace to protect against the figure four was a nice touch.

[Superstar Sleeze]

Johnny Sorrow said:

Tonight was the first time I ever saw this. Holy shit, this fucking ruled. And the going for pinfalls thing later in the match is easily explained. Obviously, neither man is a member

 

Or, since it was an NWA match basically, they were both waiting for Tommy Young to say "fuck it" and count a pinfall anyway.

I lol'd.

Greg "The Hammer" Valentine vs Ronnie Garvin - WWF Royal Rumble 1990 I Quit Match

Valentine and Garvin staged an all-out, NWA-style war in this one. They are two ornery muthafuckas looking to beat the piss out of each other in a match. I loved the boxing bits at the beginning. At first, Valentine wants to leave due to the Hammer Jammer. After TIMMMMBBAAHHHH, he is giving just as good as he gets. He was never a heel to succumb to the WWF heel tradition of getting steamrolled. He would cheat and stooge, but he always dished out punishment too. Ronnie Garvin is such a great striker. This audience reminded me of the Survivor Series '93 audience for the RNRs/Bodies match. They could not make heads or tails, but stiffness is an universal language and eventually the audience started to get into it. The pinfall attempts to get tiresome after a while and yes some do act as reversals, but I think there were still too many. I didn't mind the Hammer Jammer stuff with mocking faces as much as they had established that was the role for the Hammer Jammer. I loved the struggle for each transition as they were laying into each other. It was smart and entertaining to keep going back to that. The head cracking spot was perfect to get the Hammer Jammer off. Say what you will about the mocking faces, once Garvin got in the figure-4 he sold it for all its worth going above and beyond most to sell it the rest of the match. The Flair press slam off the top was a nice nod to the past. Once Garvin got the Heartbreaker off, I enjoyed the WWF-style antics with Jimmy Hart, hitting the Hammer with his shin-guard and slapping on the Scorpion Deathlock for the finish,

 

I have no idea why Vince let them go on PPV, but I am sure glad he did because this is great match. It is so different for the WWF given how strike-oriented and vicious it is, but still has the WWF touch with the opposing leg braces. It is a great swan song for both men as they would never reach this peak again even though Valentine's career would continue into the next decade as it epitomizes their stiff, vicious style in the ring. ****

[bradhindsight]

Just finished watching this for the first time. I always assumed they got on the PPV because no one did double duty back then and the Rumble was loaded. Had to fill out the card I guess. Have to give the Orlando crowd credit - they gave Garvin a nice pop (Valentine's wasn't shabby either) on his entrance and when he won.

 

After watching Valentine in '79 of late, and Garvin through the late 80s in JCP - this was a lot of fun to watch as both guys slapped and beat the shit out of each other. Plus they had a nice running battle going for number of attempted pin attempts in a submission match. Shame is - had it been just a regular match, some of those pinning combinations were pretty decent. It does get kind of funny when even after they start using submissions, they still revert back to trying for pins and the ref has to tell them again. I liked them going for them early as it did make sense that they had to overcome that instinct.

 

Big props to Garvin for his selling, especially on offense at the end. And his facial expressions and body language overall really fit in with 1990 WWF. I thought he was awesome here. Some cool storytelling with the braces also.

[Bix]

Who the hell put these two together in a lengthy program anyway? A very, very un-WWF match in every way other than the pin attempts being worked in. Even the dualing shin guards feels more like a southern gimmick.

 

Not a lot I can add at this point, but what a war.

[PeteF3]

Who the hell put these two together in a lengthy program anyway?

If I have the story right, "Garvin loses a retirement match and comes back to torment the winner as a referee" was something that was planned with Arn or Tully at some point and never came off. With Garvin floundering in the WWF, he was given the chance to take a release, get jobbed out, or pitch something--so he had that angle in his back pocket and saw a kindred spirit in Valentine who was also phasing down.

[Matt D]

Pretty much everyone talks to Vince on the way in. I'd be really curious to hear what he said to Garvin on what his role would be.

[Zero]

This was great. Stiff, and told a great story. I wasn't bothered at all by the pin attempts, I assume they're doing this on purpose for the crowd to know NO PINFALLS ALLOWED.

[garretta]

Maybe the best "midcard" bout in WWF history to that time. It looked and felt like a main event. The only thing that took away from it slightly was that they dldn't use weapons other than the shinguards. Then again, when you can hit like these two, who needs weapons?

 

Excellent job by Tony and Jesse putting across the psychology of the match, particularly the blow to the ego that was in store for the loser. Someone should have reminded Tony that Jimmy Hart removing Ronnie's shinguard was actually legal in this bout, though. I thought Jesse would have, but he didn't.

 

I had no problem at all with the repeated pinfall attempts. Remember, each of them were being hit hard enough to suffer concussions; it's only natural that they'd instinctively go for pins when they barely knew who they were, let alone where they were. The ending with Ronnie hitting Greg with one of the shinguards before putting the scorpion/sharpshooter on him was slightly cheap, but Greg's so tough it's conceivable that he wouldn't have submitted if he wasn't already semiconscious.

 

I wish Tony and Jesse would have put over what they'd just seen a little more instead of the face/heel squabbling over whether Greg gave up or not, and they bailed a bit too quick to go to Royal Rumble interviews, but those are minor quibbles.

 

I thought that Ronnie left right after this, but he stuck around for a while to put over Earthquake on house shows. Nevertheless, it was his last pay-per-view bout, so in that sense, he left a winner as he should have. This is definitely my WWF Match of the Month for January with one bout left (the Hogan-Warrior SNME tag) and is my new number one for Match of the Month overall with around a disc left to watch.

[drew wardlaw]

WWF/E is never subtle, so that's why they keep repeating the pinfall attempts throughout I reckon, to remind the crowd about the gimmick? The Hammer Jammer vs ankle brace thing is really cheesy but I've never seen anything like that before and I'm pretty into it. New to me, if nothing else. Something I love and probably mention with every post are very disparate elements colliding together. So something really goofy like the Hammer Jammer in a match where two old men are punishing each other really works for me.

[Woof]

I'm so torn on this match because I think if you took the stipulation away and had the exact same match it becomes an all-time classic. The stiffness was just unheard of for the WWF at that time and if you put counts to those aborted pin attempts you would have had some tremendous drama. Work the early bits around the heartbreaker and the hammer jammer (which I loved as a gimmick/counter gimmick), have them both removed as was done which leads to Garvin selling the shit out of the regular figure-four when it was applied and finish with the scorpion deathlock as a way for Garvin to show to Valentine that he has a submission move of his own that can work just as well. That works damn fine as a match structure without the "submission match" stip being tacked on to it.

 

As it is, even rewatching it last night I grew frustrated by all the pin attempts. The first one each was fine to me, because WWF in that era didn't really do "stip" matches outside of cages (where it's hard to forget the rules since the cage itself is a constant reminder) and lumberjack matches (which don't really affect the method of victory) so it made sense that both the wrestlers and the audience wouldn't be super prepped for the no-pinfall thing. But to keep going back to it bothered me quite a bit. On top of that, they didn't really work the submission aspect outside of four moments: the original figure-four with the braces in tact, Valentine's torture rack attempt, the figure-four sans braces, and the deathlock finish. There wasn't really an effort made by either guy to set up submissions during the body of the match. In a straight match, I don't think it's always necessary to work an area to set up a submission, since the move itself can often be painful enough. But if that is the only way to win, why would you waste so much energy with such vicious chops and punches when those aren't going to lead directly to the desired outcome? Yes, you could argue that they're wearing each other down to make them susceptible to a submission later, but that can be said of ANY match. Its the reason things like headlocks and chinlocks are acceptable in the early stages of the match. But if you're going to add a specific stip (especially at a time when that wasn't a major part of your booking), shouldn't the guys go all out on that aspect of the match?

So in the end, I love this match because of the brutality of it and the gaga surrounding the braces working for me, but I'm disappointed a bit in the manner the approached telling the story of the stipulation. ***1/2 that would have been over **** if they'd dumped the stip and worked it as a regular match where each guy was determined to win by submission as opposed to being required to.