Current WWE

[Fando]

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Has Kevin Dunn ever been painted in a positive light? I remember he was seen as a boogeyman for all things that internet people hated about WWE dating back to even the Paul Heyman era, with the old meme that all of the problems with WWE TV were Kevin Dunn's fault.

Another point of view would be has any majorly successful star in WWE bashed Dunn. That may be a subjective category, but I think the answer is no.

 

Paul Bearer?

[Russellmania]

Burying NXT talent to Vince in the WON is what started it. Plus, he and HHH are kind of at odds and HHH is seen as the good guy who just wants to give us a good wrestling show with new stars.

there's also a guy on reddit who frequents r/squaredcircle under the name MetsFan4Ever who claims to be a former employee of WWE who has done AMA's and revealed a lot of backstage info from when he worked there (left in like 2011 I think). Normally "some guy on an internet forum" is not a good source, but the mods there have verified his claims but at his request cannot reveal his identity. Anyway he has talked about Kevin Dunn being arguably more feared by talent than Vince because he's a weird, unreasonable guy who is quick to bury people that cross him. I know a lot of smarts frequent r/squaredCircle so that might have helped fuel the recent anti-Dunn sentiment in the IWC as well.

[rovert]

 

Burying NXT talent to Vince in the WON is what started it. Plus, he and HHH are kind of at odds and HHH is seen as the good guy who just wants to give us a good wrestling show with new stars.

there's also a guy on reddit who frequents r/squaredcircle under the name MetsFan4Ever who claims to be a former employee of WWE who has done AMA's and revealed a lot of backstage info from when he worked there (left in like 2011 I think). Normally "some guy on an internet forum" is not a good source, but the mods there have verified his claims but at his request cannot reveal his identity. Anyway he has talked about Kevin Dunn being arguably more feared by talent than Vince because he's a weird, unreasonable guy who is quick to bury people that cross him. I know a lot of smarts frequent r/squaredCircle so that might have helped fuel the recent anti-Dunn sentiment in the IWC as well.

 

By revealed infomation you mean took information from the Dave Lagana/Court Bauer type podcasts and repeated them to a less sophisticated/knowledge posters on that forum. He was the source of the "AJ Lee is pregnant" thing.

[Cox]

Has anybody ever actually said anything positive about Kevin Dunn's time working for Vince? He's been the director there forever, so he's responsible for the whole style of WWE TV, for better or worse. Has he added anything perceptible to WWE TV in the past 15-20 years? The look has barely changed since Raw went to the big screen/ramp format in 1997, save for a few aesthetics here and there. I'd be genuinely interested to hear from an unbiased source as to what he actually does, for good and for ill. Unfortunately, there do not appear to be many unbiased sources since everybody other than Vince apparently hates the guy.

[sek69]

If that story is true the whole thing might get really ugly.

 

 

Dave only has sketchy details but from what he's hearing the guy said something about cleaning plates in catering being Del Rio's job. If that anywhere close to true it's a horrible attempt at a joke at best, and possible lawsuit material at worst.

[Coffey]

How can it be a lawsuit? Someone made a joke at his expense. I don't think you can sue over something like that? He could have called him a "greasy spic", still don't think a judge would give a fuck. Especially when his answer was to retort with physical violence.

 

I'm genuinely asking because I don't know. Like, a defamation of character lawsuit or something? It's certainly not wrongful termination, as Del Rio physically assaulted someone. If anything, the lawsuit would be from the guy that got hit.

[goodhelmet]

 

I'd say it was mainly due to them wanting him to be the next Hispanic superstar, then booking him the exact opposite way a Hispanic star should be.

 

How should a Hispanic star be booked? Serious question because we discussed this very topic on a soon to be released podcast of Booking the WWE.

 

 

I still want you to answer this question.

[rovert]

Worth noting Alberto is both friends of Punk and Rey. Might be an ally if Punk or Rey's situation goes legal.

[The Chief]

Has anybody ever actually said anything positive about Kevin Dunn's time working for Vince? He's been the director there forever, so he's responsible for the whole style of WWE TV, for better or worse. Has he added anything perceptible to WWE TV in the past 15-20 years? The look has barely changed since Raw went to the big screen/ramp format in 1997, save for a few aesthetics here and there. I'd be genuinely interested to hear from an unbiased source as to what he actually does, for good and for ill. Unfortunately, there do not appear to be many unbiased sources since everybody other than Vince apparently hates the guy.

Steve Austin always praises Dunn.

[Loss]

Vince Russo loved Kevin Dunn.

[(BP)]

Is it time for a "If not Kevin Dunn then who?" thread?

[kjh]

Alex Greenfield posted this about Kevin Dunn in the comments section of Cageside Seats a couple of months ago:

 

 

This could easily become the most TL;dr post ever as I’d love nothing more than to expend several gallons of digital ink telling you how little I like Kevin Dunn, but I’ll endeavor to restrain myself. Here’s the long and the short of it: when I saw that KD was the “My Name Is” today, my heart leapt with mean schadenfreude joy. I’ve been readingCSS regularly since right after ‘Mania, but this morning I was compelled to sign up. I’m kind of glad that there was a delay before I could post. Instead of just launching into a stream of vitriol, I got to read other comments. Many of them. Interestingly, it’s the defenses of Dunn that I find most intriguing.

The unanimity with which people hate on KD would absolutely set off my skepticism spidey sense if I didn’t know the guy. It feels to me like a lot of the defense in these comments can be boiled down to, “We don’t know the guy and he can’t POSSIBLY be as bad as these people are saying.” I totally understand the instinct to say that. Here’s the thing: I worked closely with KD for a couple years at WWE when I was a writer/producer on the creative team, and he absolutely IS that bad.

One of the primary arguments in his defense is that WWE product looks good, and that this demonstrates that he is a talented television director/producer. I’ve worked on a number of sports projects over the years and I’m here to tell you that KD is not one lick more talented than the EP/director of a mid-market NBA team. Indeed, I argue thatWWE television would be well served bringing in someone just like that to take over television production because they would be more creative and could get outside the box programming has been in since the early-‘00s.

WWE shows do look good, but they also look the same. There’s a homogeneity to the feel of the product that stems directly from Dunn. His creative instinct is fast food: if it works, don’t muddle with it and keep Vince convinced it is the only way to do things by any means necessary.

When I took over as the head writer of Smackdown in the summer of 2006, one of the first things we pitched was to replace Kevin Dunn as the executive producer and promote Tim Walbert to take over the position. Tim was one of our directors (something KD is actually no good at doing – he can’t actually direct a live show to save his life) and was more than qualified for the job. We wanted Smackdown to look and feel like a completely different television than product – think in terms of Nitro vs. Raw – and for a little while Vince was intrigued by the idea (and Stephanie supported it as well).

Kevin, naturally, cared more about his fiefdom than trying something different with a show. He started his whisper campaign with Vince the moment we got off the plane (I intentionally did the initial pitch of the idea in Kevin’s presence on a flight back from TV). He buried Tim, me, the idea of a different feel to the product as a whole. It’s not just what another commenter said – that KD doesn’t give a shit about wrestling and is all about sports/entertainment – it’s that he wants to create an entertainment product that’s like fast food. He wants his job to be easy.

That means neutralizing any threat. Stephanie took a shine to me pretty early in my time at WWE and started grooming me to take over a show. She was no fan of KD at that point and it was very clear to me that he and handful of Vince’s other stooges would be gone at the moment of she and Hunter’s coronation. There are plenty of writers out there who bury Steph at every opportunity, but I remain convinced that the company will be in better hands when she takes the reins.

Any rate, the faith Stephanie had in me did not go unnoticed by KD and he did not like that at all. He didn’t like Stephanie having someone ambitious working for her, and he didn’t like that I was clearly on her side. So he started burying me with bullshit. It got back to me that he’d told one of the segment producers that I’d been slipped a roofie and passed out in a hotel lobby.

This was not the case.

I got my heat back on him plenty, but it was a constant fight long before I was given the head writer nod. The more instructive part of the story is that Kevin did this with anyone he perceived as a threat. Vince is a bit capricious about who he lets in his ear. Whenever he got close with Bruce Prichard, KD would be right there the first time Bruce was out of earshot burying him. Same with Brian Gewritz. Same with JBL. Same with JR. Same with a long list of people, and this I personally observed. KD once tried to turn ME against another writer who was similarly ambitious. Anyone who posed a danger to Dunn’s position from any perspective – a producer at the studio, a talent, whoever – KD would bury them to the boss. This was true even when there wasn’t any real threat.

So yes, KD still has a job, but I think the way you treat people matters. There is certainly something to be said about being cutthroat in a corporate culture that rewards sociopathy. I was no kinda freaking angel to get ahead as quickly as I did. At the same time, WWE would be a better place to work that would present a better product if Kevin Dunn were gone.

Case in point, one of the big rubs on KD: he’s a misogynist influence on the product. I can tell you this is absolutely true and I learned it almost from jump street. One of the long term stories I’m most proud of from my time at WWEwas being the principal producer on the Trish Stratus/Mickie James “Single White Female” story. There’s no humble in the brag when I say we grabbed the audience by the throat by a couple weeks into the angle and our quarter-hour ratings bore that out.

The first time we were given a crossover segment because the story was getting over, KD fought it tooth and nail. He fought us every week. Show was heavy? KD wanted to cut Trish/Mickie. “Temple of Trish” segment? KD argued that we needed more action and people would get bored. Lesbian kiss? “Trish has gotta like it!” Every single element, he wanted both protagonist and villain to be sexier and stupider.

Perhaps the following scene will be more instructive. You are on the WWE corporate jet. Imagine every rock star plane in any movie: four captain’s chairs facing each other in the front. Behind them, two benches facing each other across the aisle on which are crammed the writers. The captains? Vince, KD, Michael Hayes, HHH (Steph was on maternity leave, of Hayes would have been on the bench). We’re flying back from TV after taping one of the earlyWWECW shows. Kelly Kelly has just been introduced as the domestic [violence] partner of Mike Knox.

Hayes: She just feels cold, you know? She’s not connecting.
Vince: Mm. She needs to find her sensuality.

KD hops up and down in seat with sniggering laughter in that “Hey, boss, pay attention to me” way. Vince turns to him.

KD: She NEEEEDS to find some TITS!

KD continues to snicker, eyes on Vince, begging for approval. Vince snorts. Conversation continues.

This kind of thing? The tendency to present women as only softcore objects? Those conversations came every single day, and KD was the WORST about pissing on any serious woman’s program.

Ugh. I’m now on pg. 3 of the word doc I’m typing this in, so I’ll wrap it up. [Yaaaaay!] In my opinion based on my personal experience, Kevin Dunn is a detriment to WWE programming from both a creative and a production perspective. It is fair to credit him with being a part of something we all enjoy, but at the end of the day the product would be better if he weren’t involved in it. When that day comes, WWE will be a better place to work for both talent and crew.

[sek69]

 

 

I'd say it was mainly due to them wanting him to be the next Hispanic superstar, then booking him the exact opposite way a Hispanic star should be.

 

How should a Hispanic star be booked? Serious question because we discussed this very topic on a soon to be released podcast of Booking the WWE.

 

 

I still want you to answer this question.

 

 

Honestly I always think how Loss once talked about how refreshing it would be if a wrestler could be gay without it being part of his gimmick, and think that could apply to Black/Hispanic wrestlers. Why couldn't Alberto be pushed like any strong heel, just one who happened to be Mexican? No Speedy Gonzales style exaggerated accents, no one beating it down your throats that he's MEXICO'S GREATEST EXPORT, MAGGLE! It also doesn't help the writers seem to have no idea how to write for a Hispanic character despite them insisting that's the core of his gimmick.

[Petey]

That Kevin Dunn piece was something else.

[goodhelmet]

 

 

 

I'd say it was mainly due to them wanting him to be the next Hispanic superstar, then booking him the exact opposite way a Hispanic star should be.

 

How should a Hispanic star be booked? Serious question because we discussed this very topic on a soon to be released podcast of Booking the WWE.

 

 

I still want you to answer this question.

 

 

Honestly I always think how Loss once talked about how refreshing it would be if a wrestler could be gay without it being part of his gimmick, and think that could apply to Black/Hispanic wrestlers. Why couldn't Alberto be pushed like any strong heel, just one who happened to be Mexican? No Speedy Gonzales style exaggerated accents, no one beating it down your throats that he's MEXICO'S GREATEST EXPORT, MAGGLE! It also doesn't help the writers seem to have no idea how to write for a Hispanic character despite them insisting that's the core of his gimmick.

 

 

Agreed with everything up until that last sentence which you kind of forces me to ask the same question again.

[ButchReedMark]

 

 

 

I'd say it was mainly due to them wanting him to be the next Hispanic superstar, then booking him the exact opposite way a Hispanic star should be.

 

How should a Hispanic star be booked? Serious question because we discussed this very topic on a soon to be released podcast of Booking the WWE.

 

 

I still want you to answer this question.

 

 

Honestly I always think how Loss once talked about how refreshing it would be if a wrestler could be gay without it being part of his gimmick, and think that could apply to Black/Hispanic wrestlers. Why couldn't Alberto be pushed like any strong heel, just one who happened to be Mexican? No Speedy Gonzales style exaggerated accents, no one beating it down your throats that he's MEXICO'S GREATEST EXPORT, MAGGLE! It also doesn't help the writers seem to have no idea how to write for a Hispanic character despite them insisting that's the core of his gimmick.

 

 

I don't see the point in having a wrestler who just happens to be gay without it being part of his gimmick, as if it's not part of his gimmick it serves no use.

 

"While I'm a wrestling bus driver, I'm also gay, but that's not relevant. So ignore it, but don't."

"What are you telling me for?"

 

A wrestler who just happens to be gay without it being part of his gimmick would just be a normal bloke wouldn't it? And that'd be dull. There's enough dull blokes in wrestling. If anything mentioning someone's gay makes an issue that doesn't need to be made. Sexuality doesn't make someone anything, it's just a thing. Like a chicken wing.

 

I mean, why would we know he's gay? Why would he tell us? Much like why would someone tell anyone they're straight? I mean, sexual orientation isn't an event or interesting. It's just a thing, like having blonde hair or blue eyes. Then after telling us it's part of his gimmick. If it's not part of anything, why even reveal it? He'd just be a normal bloke, like any number of normal blokes who aren't made more or less interesting by their sexual orientation. And normal in wrestling is boring.

[fakeplastictrees]

I think the WWE writers need to watch El Rey and hire some Latin/Latina writers. Does anyone know the cultural makeup of the writing team? Are there any women on the team? Any agnostics? What is the average age of the WWE writers? All of this plays into the booking of a Hispanic star. Now the question is- HOW should he be booked? Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio are the best examples. They drew tons of money and ratings throughout their careers. They both were super over at one point and sold tons of merchandise. Why? Because at some point the bookers, writers, producers, etc. realized focusing on Eddie and Mysterio's characters rather than skin color made everyone richer.

 

ADR came in and was hot. The cars, the personal ring announcer, the suits. It all worked. ADR is a LONG cry from The Mexicools. So what happened? WWE, for whatever reason, stopped focusing on his character and started focusing on his skin color. Now, this is where a diverse writing staff comes into play. If there were some Latin/Latina writers on the writing staff--someone would be able to tell Vince what being Hispanic/Latin in America means in the 21st century. Who are the hottest singers? What is the latest fashion trends? What is the day-to-day life like? etc. Because these questions were not asked we got the 'Made In America' run from ADR. I can't think of a face run within the last 5 years that just killed someone dead like the 'Made in America' gimmick did to ADR. There was no coming back from it because he was officially 1991 Hulk Hogan corny.

 

I know a lot of Hispanics and I live in an area where there are tons. I can tell you right now- I don't know ANYONE who is cutting 'Made In America' promos or acting even remotely like ADR was during that time. I'd go as far as saying he was borderline an 'Uncle Tom' version of a Mexican. Stop with the 'Latin Heartthrob' shit and inserting Hispanic tropes into promos, etc. Having your multi-time WHC and RR winning cutting promos as the white man's version of American through a Lation's eyes while talking about burritos is pretty fucking stupid and isn't going to do that person nor the company any favors in the long run. ADR is the cautionary tale.

 

Also, stop having these guys all hail from Mexico or Spain. The audience is not stupid and the product is international. Why only focus on one country when promotion latinos? WWE has two Puerto Ricans playing Spaniards and at one point TNA had a stable called "Mexican American" that consisted of a Puerto Rican, a Mexican, a Canadian, and a Dominican. Why was Rosita representing Mexico? This factors into the booking. If someone is Puerto Rican...let them be Puerto Rican. Announce they are from Puerto Rico and it better not be San Juan. If someone doesn't know where Toa Alta is, then let those people bring out a map and find out just like I did when I was just 6 years old and heard The Undertaker was from Death Valley!

 

I keep wanting to end this post, but then I think of something else. Spanish is the second most spoken language in the U.S. The commentators should at least PRETEND to know Spanish. I'm not saying Michael Cole should break out his Spanish 101 on the next Raw broadcast. But if someone is in the ring (Rose, Fernando, etc.) cutting a promo in Spanish-- Cole and company should chime in with someone smart and not 'what did they just say!?". Again, I am not asking for anyone to be a human Rosetta Stone or anything, but a simple "Fernando just laid down a heavy challenge to anyone in the back and he means business!" will suffice.

 

It's late and I'm rambling. I hope I have in some way answered your question Will.

[sek69]

 

 

 

 

I'd say it was mainly due to them wanting him to be the next Hispanic superstar, then booking him the exact opposite way a Hispanic star should be.

 

How should a Hispanic star be booked? Serious question because we discussed this very topic on a soon to be released podcast of Booking the WWE.

 

 

I still want you to answer this question.

 

 

Honestly I always think how Loss once talked about how refreshing it would be if a wrestler could be gay without it being part of his gimmick, and think that could apply to Black/Hispanic wrestlers. Why couldn't Alberto be pushed like any strong heel, just one who happened to be Mexican? No Speedy Gonzales style exaggerated accents, no one beating it down your throats that he's MEXICO'S GREATEST EXPORT, MAGGLE! It also doesn't help the writers seem to have no idea how to write for a Hispanic character despite them insisting that's the core of his gimmick.

 

 

Agreed with everything up until that last sentence which you kind of forces me to ask the same question again.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you're expecting me to say. As far as I know, the only non white guy on the writing team is Dave Kapoor, My thing is if they insist on making his ethnicity part of his gimmick, the people writing for him should have some idea what would appeal to a Hispanic audience. Rey wasn't a megastar to the Hispanic audience because they pushed it down people's throats, it was because he was this cool little dude who did all kinds of crazy moves and found a way to beat guys twice his size. Yeah, he'd bust out Aztec themed gear for big events sometimes, but being Mexican was never the main focus. Same thing with Eddie, he got way more over when they dialed back the LATINO HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAT stuff and focused more on him being a great wrestler. Whenever he was doing the over the top stereotypical stuff he always did in in a winking fashion like he realized this was silly but at least he was in on the joke. Alberto as a babyface came off way too much as "this is what white people think latinos would cheer for" .

 

 

tl;dr version: what fakeplastictrees said

[ButchReedMark]

Aren't the basics of what makes a great babyface pretty much ethnicity neutral? Del Rio should have been marketed as a great wrestler or what have you that just happens to be hispanic, rather than a hispanic man who just happens to be alright at the wrestling lark.

[fakeplastictrees]

Aren't the basics of what makes a great babyface pretty much ethnicity neutral? Del Rio should have been marketed as a great wrestler or what have you that just happens to be hispanic, rather than a hispanic man who just happens to be alright at the wrestling lark.

 

Before WWE became the only show in town, this was the case. Now that WWE has a farm system and all the wrestlers look,act, promo, and wrestle the same- focusing slightly (and I do mean slightly) on a wrestler's heritage isn't such a bad thing. The Uso's are probably the best examples in modern day WWE. The Usos make a nod to their culture without making it their entire gimmick. I've know about 3 Samoans in my life and they were kinda like The Usos. The traditional tribal music going into the hip-hop music, the call and response, and the face paint are all good stuff that doesn't feel patronizing. WWE managed to work culture into the gimmick without making the culture the gimmick.

[ButchReedMark]

Fair enough then. Thank god WWE didn't know the Samoans I used to play rugby with and used them as a nod to culture. Damn. They ruled.

[funkdoc]

yea i was just going to mention the usos as a neat example. it heartens me a lot more than it should to see samoans in wrestling presented as basically normal dudes, considering the headshrinkers were one of the first acts i grew up on.

 

i think that was what was meant by the comment about gay wrestlers. you don't talk about it all the time, but show a guy having a short & serious conversation with his boyfriend before a title match or something like that. it would be a way of further humanizing wrestlers, which is usually a good thing!

[ButchReedMark]

You'd have to start showing straight wrestlers having chats with their partners too before matches, otherwise it'd be a big "He's gay, he's different" klaxon.

 

Personally I don't want my wrestler's humanized. real human beings are inherently boring. I want them larger than life, and bullet proof. I watch wrestling to escape real life, not to be re-immersed in it.

[fakeplastictrees]

Speaking of which...when is WWE going to do a legit gay/lesbian romance angle. I'm not talking about a Billy & Chuck swerve. I mean a legit romance angle. Too forward thinking? WWE has 3 exclusive Network only shows, why not get Darren Young and someone else together and run with it for 3 months and see what happens. Worse case scenerio is it doesn't get over with the fans, WWE gets praised in the mainstream media for being progressive, and WWE quitely cancels the angle that the majority of the fans will never have seen anyways.

[artDDP]

Speaking of which...when is WWE going to do a legit gay/lesbian romance angle. I'm not talking about a Billy & Chuck swerve. I mean a legit romance angle. To forward thinking? WWE has 3 exclusive Network only shows, why not get Darren Young and someone else together and run with it for 3 months and see what happens. Worse case scenerio is it doesn't get over with the fans, WWE gets praised in the mainstream media for being progressive, and WWE quitely cancels the angle that the majority of the fans will never have seen anyways.

I just don't think their current staff has any idea how to write something like that without it being totally over-the-top.